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> this data collection done by a foreign government and exploited for surveillance or espionage is a national security risk. How were Snowden revelations of US

by 627467 4y ago

> this data collection done by a foreign government and exploited for surveillance or espionage is a national security risk. How were Snowden revelations of USG<>Bigtech relationship materially different from what's happening here? Maybe it was less transparent? Any "woke" person can see the cognitive dissonance here. It's all fine that you use the geopolitical rivalry argument but not if you try to paint one side of the argument as "free" and "liberal" and "subject to rule of law" when it's clearly not the case

qzx_pierri 4y ago
You gotta remember a lot of people on HN work for, and already drank the FAANG kool-aid.
- bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
  There's plenty of "us good them bad" kool-aid without FAANG influence.
honkdaddy 4y ago
The notion which myself and others have problem with is that the US Federal Govt and the CCP are entities which we should be treating with a similar level of trust and care. The CCP has proven time and time again, be it from their refusal to cooperate with studying the source of COVID, or their continued systematic genocide of the Uighur population, that they are not a political institution which can be trusted or respected on the world stage. This isn't to say that the USG should be admired or emulated, far from it, but as someone who's neither Chinese nor American, I think it's an objective truth that most people in the world fared better under 20th century American-hegemony than the worldwide Sinicization which the CCP has made clear is its aim.
- fariszr 4y ago
judge2020 4y ago
'National security risk' is all the FCC is arguing; they're not arguing that these data collection practices are bad in themselves, only that they're bad if it happens in a way that strengthens a foreign government.
- moralestapia 4y ago
  If the data exists 99% of the work is already done though. It is extremely easy for a government to infiltrate into these organizations and get their hands on it, it has happened at Twitter [1], for instance. So, yes, the problem IS data collection in the first place. 1: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/former-twitter-employees-charged-with-spying-for-saudi-arabia-by-digging-into-the-accounts-of-kingdom-critics/2019/11/06/2e9593da-00a0-11ea-8bab-0fc209e065a8_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/former-twit...
  - staticassertion 4y ago
    It doesn't have to be extremely easy, and it isn't extremely easy at every company. Twitter's security was bad, worse than it should have been for their size/ data footprint. I do agree that data collection is at the core of the problem, but Twitter really should have done a better job.
    - moralestapia 4y ago
      Read the article, No amount of "security" is enough for an actor who wants to do this and has privileged to the data. This is almost impossible to out-engineer, if you think a company like Twitter cannot solve "such an easy problem" you're being naive.
      - staticassertion 4y ago
        Not really sure what your point is. I did read the article. I didn't comment on TikTok, which would be legally required (and I am sure compliant, although they deny that in the article) to hand data over to the Chinese government. I commented on Twitter, which was hacked by amateurs, and absolutely could have been considerably harder as a target.
ncr100 4y ago
China is not the US. China's kompromat and industrial espionage policies differ from those of the US. It is off base to compare while ignoring intentions and impact, because they're Very different countries.
- hatenberg 4y ago
- 8note 4y ago
  - nathanaldensr 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - zo1 4y ago
    I don't think they'll stay that benign and harmless after they reach America's level of leadership over the world.
- tremon 4y ago
  It's only off-base for citizens of the US. For other countries, there is no material difference between what either is doing. Except that one of them has a track record of extralegal assassinations, of course.
  - thetinguy 4y ago
    What? One is a democracy and one is a dictatorship.
    - SkyMarshal 4y ago
      Not only a democracy, but a constitutional republic with an independent court and military, both of which are sworn to uphold that constitution and all the human rights it enumerates. We don't always succeed at that, but at least we have that as our society and government's guidestar, and legal and political processes for self-correcting. The Communist Party has exactly zero of any of that, and an ideology entirely oriented around justifying getting and keeping power by any means necessary.
memonkey 4y ago
Americans pick and choose which media to listen to. And the media across the spectrum is aligned on one thing: China Bad, US Good. However, if you listen to NPR, it _does_ matter that we're locking up immigrants in the South. But did you hear that NPR story about Uyghur genocide? Then you look for other non-American affiliated publications on the matter and they are slim pickings. Why does the United States focus so much on China? And yeah, it's mostly to manufacture consent.
asveikau 4y ago
The difference is that when we hear about that being done extrajudicially, it's a scandal. We have a system where due process is required. Sometimes authorities break those laws. But the system and culture is nonetheless there and for a reason.
Xeoncross 4y ago
The US isn't rounding thousands (millions actually?) of civil, political, religious, and other kinds of dissenters and imprisoning, reeducating, or killing them. That's kind of a big difference here. The CCP has mandatory seats on the bytedance board and wants a copy of all the data so they can target people. Spying is bad, murder is next-level bad. Stop it all, but start with the bigger issues first.
- okasaki 4y ago
  Does the US have dissidents?
  - Xeoncross 4y ago
    Half the US seems to be dissidents depending on who you ask - but they aren't being rounded up and sent to reeducation camps or having their organs harvested. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests-organs-detainees-tribunal-concludes-n1018646 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests...
    - okasaki 4y ago
      Wow, half of the US population are dissidents. Is that what they call themselves? Is that what the government calls them? Or did you just make it up and it's a word reserved for people in nations you hate?
      - Xeoncross 4y ago
        What an odd reply, suddenly I'm the bad person and I 'hate' people because I want to save them? Dissidents = "Disagreeing, as in opinion or belief" The government in power decides who this is and then acts against them according. The CCP just happens to use lethal force on a massive scale in this regard.
        okasaki 4y ago
fhood 4y ago
Who would you rather give a theoretical copy of all of your digital information? Assuming both have equal access to non-digital you.
lambersley 4y ago
The 'they do it too' is fallacious. Does TikTok pose a threat? If the answer is yes, then request to remove it from app stores is justified.

by 627467 4y ago

qzx_pierri 4y ago

You gotta remember a lot of people on HN work for, and already drank the FAANG kool-aid.

bitxbitxbitcoin 4y ago
There's plenty of "us good them bad" kool-aid without FAANG influence.

honkdaddy 4y ago

The notion which myself and others have problem with is that the US Federal Govt and the CCP are entities which we should be treating with a similar level of trust and care. The CCP has proven time and time again, be it from their refusal to cooperate with studying the source of COVID, or their continued systematic genocide of the Uighur population, that they are not a political institution which can be trusted or respected on the world stage. This isn't to say that the USG should be admired or emulated, far from it, but as someone who's neither Chinese nor American, I think it's an objective truth that most people in the world fared better under 20th century American-hegemony than the worldwide Sinicization which the CCP has made clear is its aim.

fariszr 4y ago

judge2020 4y ago

'National security risk' is all the FCC is arguing; they're not arguing that these data collection practices are bad in themselves, only that they're bad if it happens in a way that strengthens a foreign government.

moralestapia 4y ago
If the data exists 99% of the work is already done though. It is extremely easy for a government to infiltrate into these organizations and get their hands on it, it has happened at Twitter [1], for instance. So, yes, the problem IS data collection in the first place. 1: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/former-twitter-employees-charged-with-spying-for-saudi-arabia-by-digging-into-the-accounts-of-kingdom-critics/2019/11/06/2e9593da-00a0-11ea-8bab-0fc209e065a8_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/former-twit...
- staticassertion 4y ago
  It doesn't have to be extremely easy, and it isn't extremely easy at every company. Twitter's security was bad, worse than it should have been for their size/ data footprint. I do agree that data collection is at the core of the problem, but Twitter really should have done a better job.
  - moralestapia 4y ago
    Read the article, No amount of "security" is enough for an actor who wants to do this and has privileged to the data. This is almost impossible to out-engineer, if you think a company like Twitter cannot solve "such an easy problem" you're being naive.
    - staticassertion 4y ago
      Not really sure what your point is. I did read the article. I didn't comment on TikTok, which would be legally required (and I am sure compliant, although they deny that in the article) to hand data over to the Chinese government. I commented on Twitter, which was hacked by amateurs, and absolutely could have been considerably harder as a target.

ncr100 4y ago

China is not the US. China's kompromat and industrial espionage policies differ from those of the US. It is off base to compare while ignoring intentions and impact, because they're Very different countries.

hatenberg 4y ago
8note 4y ago
- nathanaldensr 4y ago
  [flagged]
- zo1 4y ago
  I don't think they'll stay that benign and harmless after they reach America's level of leadership over the world.
tremon 4y ago
It's only off-base for citizens of the US. For other countries, there is no material difference between what either is doing. Except that one of them has a track record of extralegal assassinations, of course.
- thetinguy 4y ago
  What? One is a democracy and one is a dictatorship.
  - SkyMarshal 4y ago
    Not only a democracy, but a constitutional republic with an independent court and military, both of which are sworn to uphold that constitution and all the human rights it enumerates. We don't always succeed at that, but at least we have that as our society and government's guidestar, and legal and political processes for self-correcting. The Communist Party has exactly zero of any of that, and an ideology entirely oriented around justifying getting and keeping power by any means necessary.

memonkey 4y ago

Americans pick and choose which media to listen to. And the media across the spectrum is aligned on one thing: China Bad, US Good. However, if you listen to NPR, it _does_ matter that we're locking up immigrants in the South. But did you hear that NPR story about Uyghur genocide? Then you look for other non-American affiliated publications on the matter and they are slim pickings. Why does the United States focus so much on China? And yeah, it's mostly to manufacture consent.

asveikau 4y ago

The difference is that when we hear about that being done extrajudicially, it's a scandal. We have a system where due process is required. Sometimes authorities break those laws. But the system and culture is nonetheless there and for a reason.

Xeoncross 4y ago

The US isn't rounding thousands (millions actually?) of civil, political, religious, and other kinds of dissenters and imprisoning, reeducating, or killing them. That's kind of a big difference here. The CCP has mandatory seats on the bytedance board and wants a copy of all the data so they can target people. Spying is bad, murder is next-level bad. Stop it all, but start with the bigger issues first.

okasaki 4y ago
Does the US have dissidents?
- Xeoncross 4y ago
  Half the US seems to be dissidents depending on who you ask - but they aren't being rounded up and sent to reeducation camps or having their organs harvested. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests-organs-detainees-tribunal-concludes-n1018646 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-forcefully-harvests...
  - okasaki 4y ago
    Wow, half of the US population are dissidents. Is that what they call themselves? Is that what the government calls them? Or did you just make it up and it's a word reserved for people in nations you hate?
    - Xeoncross 4y ago
      What an odd reply, suddenly I'm the bad person and I 'hate' people because I want to save them? Dissidents = "Disagreeing, as in opinion or belief" The government in power decides who this is and then acts against them according. The CCP just happens to use lethal force on a massive scale in this regard.
      - okasaki 4y ago

fhood 4y ago

Who would you rather give a theoretical copy of all of your digital information? Assuming both have equal access to non-digital you.

lambersley 4y ago

The 'they do it too' is fallacious. Does TikTok pose a threat? If the answer is yes, then request to remove it from app stores is justified.