6 ms·

The US government is a foreign government for 96% of the people, not to mention that its own citizens don't control it much.

cowtools 4y ago
The USA is a democracy. Arguing otherwise is the pot calling the kettle black.
- AustinDev 4y ago
- sudosysgen 4y ago
  I don't see how an Iraqi should care that the US is a democracy, really.
- revscat 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - shrimp_emoji 4y ago
    >how can the United States be a democracy when the “demos” have no say whatsoever in their own governance? They do have a say. How do they not? (But keep in mind that 89% of them would disagree with your politics.) >Where that government puts up roadblock after roadblock protecting itself from the influence of any but the obscenely wealthy? Compared to where, actual oligarchies like Russia? Your metrics are uncalibrated af. >I am Gen X. For around five decades now I have voted. It has never affected my life positively. Congrats, you've apparently been privileged enough to not benefit from Obamacare or the drawdown of the Afghanistan war, or ending "Don't Ask Don't Tell", or the overturn of Trump's transgender service member ban, or the Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility, and Disclosure Act, or the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, or the halt on federal executions, or the recent reductions in unemployment, etc. To you, these things were unnoticeable blips in an uninteresting history because you were never in the unfortunate positions that apply, like someone on welfare, someone in the military, etc. >Roe v Wade overturned You got this because all of the people who voted Republican got it (since the Republicans packed the Supreme Court with three conservative judges). So, for them, the system worked. Also, it gets funnier: Roe v Wade, if you read its Wikipedia article, was considered a pretty bad ruling, and some predicted that how poor it was opened the door for overturn later. Meanwhile, in the decades that the Supreme Court let it languish, like a hazardously-perched kludge giving women everywhere abortion rights, Democrats failed to vote for actual legislation protecting abortion rights as they should have. That's why "you got" Roe v Wade overturned. On the plus side, a strong majority of Americans support abortion, so it shouldn't be difficult to vote for legislation. The only thing that could mess that up is silly, entitled, nihilist attitudes like yours. >But hey, we can get rid of the filibuster to raise the debt ceiling. Just not to investigate cops for being Nazis. Unhinged.
- kaba0 4y ago
- svnt 4y ago
  Arguing otherwise is me not being a functioning democracy? While I would love to take that on I am genuinely puzzled by what you mean. “No one can question American democracy because they don’t have a better one?” Sorry but if that’s it that’s a dumb take.
- hatenberg 4y ago
  - pmarreck 4y ago
    It's terrible because the best solution to escape the two-party system, including all the animosity (where it is always strategically disadvantageous to join any other party thanks to the first-past-the-post voting system) is something like IRV (instant-runoff voting). > At least in China the majority of people actually trust their government. Sure, as long as you don't say the wrong thing and get "disappeared", and have no one to turn to (since the one-party government also controls the courts and legal system), what's not to trust?? LOL, GTFO of here, you absolute fool https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/19/china-disappeared-high-profile-figures-who-have-gone-missing-during-xi-jinpings-rule https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/19/china-disappea...
- 8note 4y ago
  I can't vote in american elections. Being a democracy is no solace to the people for whom the US is a foreign government.
  - colinmhayes 4y ago
    Then maybe your country should designate American social media companies national security adversaries.
    - wcfields 4y ago
      When one does that, America usually is punitive against your nation in retaliation.
      - macintux 4y ago
        Examples?
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  The US is a Constitutional Republic, Arguing otherwise is showing ignorance of governmental structures.
  - Clubber 4y ago
    A republic is a form of democracy. This strange differentiation came about as a GOP talking point in the early 2000s. I'm amazed that it is still repeated 20 year later. Saying the US is not a democracy but a constitutional republic is like saying a car is not an automobile. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      >> This strange differentiation came about as a GOP talking point in the early 2000s. Actually no, it comes from far earlier in our history that that, GOP may have had it has a talking point not sure, and dont really care, but the GOP is not the origination of this >Saying the US is not a democracy but a constitutional republic is like saying a car is not an automobile. No, not all Republics are democratic, and not all Democracy's are republics. The US has every very very limited elements that are democratic, and at our founding even less so then today. At the founding only the House was democratic everything else was not. IMO we need to go back to that, less democracy would be good
      - Clubber 4y ago
        When I was growing up in the 80s, everyone knew the US republic was a form of democracy. Are you arguing that it isn't? I never heard the phrase, "The US isn't a democracy, it's a republic" until around 2000s; the first part being completely wrong, but the second part being right.
    - tylersmith 4y ago
      The differences and potential compromises between various democracies and republics were discussed and debated quite at length when the original US governments were iterating toward the Constitution. It's certainly not just a 20 year old GOP talking point.
- NoGravitas 4y ago
  The US is at best an "illiberal democracy"[1]. But it's probably worse than that. Effectively, the US has no opposition party, the ruling party being superficially divided into two nominal parties which agree on 90% of policy and which use their control over the electoral machinery to exclude opposition parties. Recently, major changes of governmental policy that affect millions of people have been made by an unelected body of officials who have lifetime terms. You may have even seen it in the news. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illiberal_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illiberal_democracy
- xorcist 4y ago
  Not to disagree with you but it might also nice to nuance that statement. Being a democracy isn't an either/or proposition. It's more of a continuum. There are some internationally recognized standards what constitutes a democracy, and the USA fits some and not others. For example, the USA wouldn't meet the criteria for democracy to be considered for EU membership, in the unlikely event it would apply for that. The main sticking point is that it practices capital punishment, together with countries such as People's Republic of China and a handful of African countries. Intralegal execution of minors being especially problematic. Several treaties on international criminal law concerning war crimes is not recognized and its citizens are unlikely to ever be subject to the Geneva convention. The second important point is the lack of an independent legal system. High ranking judges gets hand picked by politicians, in a very literal way. (Which is something that has also has happened in for example Poland. This is widely regarded as a loop hole in the EU democratic criteria. A country could not have been considered for membership under those conditions, but there is no jurisdictional power against reneging on that policy post membership. Subsidies gets frozen, but that's about it.)
- sillystuff 4y ago
  > The USA is a democracy. I'm not sure it is as black and white as you suggest. If you were to create a time machine and bring an ancient Athenian to the modern day US, the Athenian would not recognize the US system of government as, democracy. With the exception of jury trials and referendums, the demos do not directly engage in governance. The US doesn't even allow the majority of the population to select those who perform the actual governing. E.g., a person from Wyoming has much more representation in the Senate than a person from California. And, for the president, the population votes, but the winner of this election is not the one who got the most votes from the population, it is the one with the most electoral college votes. Again, the Wyoming voter gets more representation with one elector per less than 200K Wyoming residents, and only one elector for over 700K California residents. It is how the US got Bush "W" and Trump even though they both lost the vote of the demos. With all the money in elections, even if there were majority representation, the US would still have moneyed interests dominating politics. Some argue that the US is an oligarchy: https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/fi...

cowtools 4y ago

The USA is a democracy. Arguing otherwise is the pot calling the kettle black.

AustinDev 4y ago
sudosysgen 4y ago
I don't see how an Iraqi should care that the US is a democracy, really.
revscat 4y ago
[flagged]
- shrimp_emoji 4y ago
  >how can the United States be a democracy when the “demos” have no say whatsoever in their own governance? They do have a say. How do they not? (But keep in mind that 89% of them would disagree with your politics.) >Where that government puts up roadblock after roadblock protecting itself from the influence of any but the obscenely wealthy? Compared to where, actual oligarchies like Russia? Your metrics are uncalibrated af. >I am Gen X. For around five decades now I have voted. It has never affected my life positively. Congrats, you've apparently been privileged enough to not benefit from Obamacare or the drawdown of the Afghanistan war, or ending "Don't Ask Don't Tell", or the overturn of Trump's transgender service member ban, or the Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility, and Disclosure Act, or the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, or the halt on federal executions, or the recent reductions in unemployment, etc. To you, these things were unnoticeable blips in an uninteresting history because you were never in the unfortunate positions that apply, like someone on welfare, someone in the military, etc. >Roe v Wade overturned You got this because all of the people who voted Republican got it (since the Republicans packed the Supreme Court with three conservative judges). So, for them, the system worked. Also, it gets funnier: Roe v Wade, if you read its Wikipedia article, was considered a pretty bad ruling, and some predicted that how poor it was opened the door for overturn later. Meanwhile, in the decades that the Supreme Court let it languish, like a hazardously-perched kludge giving women everywhere abortion rights, Democrats failed to vote for actual legislation protecting abortion rights as they should have. That's why "you got" Roe v Wade overturned. On the plus side, a strong majority of Americans support abortion, so it shouldn't be difficult to vote for legislation. The only thing that could mess that up is silly, entitled, nihilist attitudes like yours. >But hey, we can get rid of the filibuster to raise the debt ceiling. Just not to investigate cops for being Nazis. Unhinged.
kaba0 4y ago
svnt 4y ago
Arguing otherwise is me not being a functioning democracy? While I would love to take that on I am genuinely puzzled by what you mean. “No one can question American democracy because they don’t have a better one?” Sorry but if that’s it that’s a dumb take.
hatenberg 4y ago
- pmarreck 4y ago
  It's terrible because the best solution to escape the two-party system, including all the animosity (where it is always strategically disadvantageous to join any other party thanks to the first-past-the-post voting system) is something like IRV (instant-runoff voting). > At least in China the majority of people actually trust their government. Sure, as long as you don't say the wrong thing and get "disappeared", and have no one to turn to (since the one-party government also controls the courts and legal system), what's not to trust?? LOL, GTFO of here, you absolute fool https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/19/china-disappeared-high-profile-figures-who-have-gone-missing-during-xi-jinpings-rule https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/19/china-disappea...
8note 4y ago
I can't vote in american elections. Being a democracy is no solace to the people for whom the US is a foreign government.
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  Then maybe your country should designate American social media companies national security adversaries.
  - wcfields 4y ago
    When one does that, America usually is punitive against your nation in retaliation.
    - macintux 4y ago
      Examples?
phpisthebest 4y ago
The US is a Constitutional Republic, Arguing otherwise is showing ignorance of governmental structures.
- Clubber 4y ago
  A republic is a form of democracy. This strange differentiation came about as a GOP talking point in the early 2000s. I'm amazed that it is still repeated 20 year later. Saying the US is not a democracy but a constitutional republic is like saying a car is not an automobile. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    >> This strange differentiation came about as a GOP talking point in the early 2000s. Actually no, it comes from far earlier in our history that that, GOP may have had it has a talking point not sure, and dont really care, but the GOP is not the origination of this >Saying the US is not a democracy but a constitutional republic is like saying a car is not an automobile. No, not all Republics are democratic, and not all Democracy's are republics. The US has every very very limited elements that are democratic, and at our founding even less so then today. At the founding only the House was democratic everything else was not. IMO we need to go back to that, less democracy would be good
    - Clubber 4y ago
      When I was growing up in the 80s, everyone knew the US republic was a form of democracy. Are you arguing that it isn't? I never heard the phrase, "The US isn't a democracy, it's a republic" until around 2000s; the first part being completely wrong, but the second part being right.
  - tylersmith 4y ago
    The differences and potential compromises between various democracies and republics were discussed and debated quite at length when the original US governments were iterating toward the Constitution. It's certainly not just a 20 year old GOP talking point.
NoGravitas 4y ago
The US is at best an "illiberal democracy"[1]. But it's probably worse than that. Effectively, the US has no opposition party, the ruling party being superficially divided into two nominal parties which agree on 90% of policy and which use their control over the electoral machinery to exclude opposition parties. Recently, major changes of governmental policy that affect millions of people have been made by an unelected body of officials who have lifetime terms. You may have even seen it in the news. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illiberal_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illiberal_democracy
xorcist 4y ago
Not to disagree with you but it might also nice to nuance that statement. Being a democracy isn't an either/or proposition. It's more of a continuum. There are some internationally recognized standards what constitutes a democracy, and the USA fits some and not others. For example, the USA wouldn't meet the criteria for democracy to be considered for EU membership, in the unlikely event it would apply for that. The main sticking point is that it practices capital punishment, together with countries such as People's Republic of China and a handful of African countries. Intralegal execution of minors being especially problematic. Several treaties on international criminal law concerning war crimes is not recognized and its citizens are unlikely to ever be subject to the Geneva convention. The second important point is the lack of an independent legal system. High ranking judges gets hand picked by politicians, in a very literal way. (Which is something that has also has happened in for example Poland. This is widely regarded as a loop hole in the EU democratic criteria. A country could not have been considered for membership under those conditions, but there is no jurisdictional power against reneging on that policy post membership. Subsidies gets frozen, but that's about it.)
sillystuff 4y ago
> The USA is a democracy. I'm not sure it is as black and white as you suggest. If you were to create a time machine and bring an ancient Athenian to the modern day US, the Athenian would not recognize the US system of government as, democracy. With the exception of jury trials and referendums, the demos do not directly engage in governance. The US doesn't even allow the majority of the population to select those who perform the actual governing. E.g., a person from Wyoming has much more representation in the Senate than a person from California. And, for the president, the population votes, but the winner of this election is not the one who got the most votes from the population, it is the one with the most electoral college votes. Again, the Wyoming voter gets more representation with one elector per less than 200K Wyoming residents, and only one elector for over 700K California residents. It is how the US got Bush "W" and Trump even though they both lost the vote of the demos. With all the money in elections, even if there were majority representation, the US would still have moneyed interests dominating politics. Some argue that the US is an oligarchy: https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/fi...