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Where I live there's something weird about ebikes, escooters and regulation. I can only buy ebike that goes up to 25km/h, yet escooters are like 1500W 90km/h be

Where I live there's something weird about ebikes, escooters and regulation. I can only buy ebike that goes up to 25km/h, yet escooters are like 1500W 90km/h beasts. I don't mind if shop adds licence plate or whatever is needed for faster ebikes to be legal, just get it sorted.

_8j50 4y ago
I disagree, just get a scooter at that point. Large part of the ebike appeal is You would not need a drivers license and registration for it.
Nursie 4y ago
That's kinda crazy... Here in Western Australia they're all limited to 25km/h, though you can go faster on the bike using your legs, the electronic assist must cut out there. How widely these rules are actually followed, I have no clue.
- thevagrant 4y ago
  The problem with my bike was after 27km/h the motor would cut out. you could pedal harder to go faster although it'd feel like pedalling through mud without the motor. Once I removed the speed limit, it is limited by my pedalling and the gearing speed combined with the limit of the motor. it feels natural like a bike.
  - jackvalentine 4y ago
    Sadly, even with accoustic bikes you get the antisocial on shared paths riding furiously. I worry that if defeating assistance limiters becomes mainstream then the antisocial out there won't even need to exert themselves to ruin it for everyone.
    - thevagrant 4y ago
      It is true. I think the limit should be there by default, even though I modded mine. I talked to others in a cycle group and they commonly had older riders joining with a new ebike only to hurt themselves as their riding skills did not match the speed of their new bike. Personally I only ride full speed without the limiter when on the road. If riding on paths or populated areas then I slow down to a cruise.
      - jackvalentine 4y ago
        > older riders joining with a new ebike only to hurt themselves as their riding skills did not match the speed of their new bike. Apparently a big driver of injury rates increasing in The Netherlands - old people on new ebikes riding like they're 20 again.
- rozenmd 4y ago
  You can easily "game" the cut out by changing what the system thinks your tyre diameter is (depending on the system) Edit: not saying you should.
  - thevagrant 4y ago
    Yes and some other systems have a magnet / sensor to measure speed so this can also be manipulated.
thevagrant 4y ago
You can buy modchips online that remove the speed limit. I did this for my ebike which was limited to 25km/h. With the modchip installed it can go much faster.
- hddherman 4y ago
  Some countries are starting to clamp down on shenanigans like this, since without the speed limit an e-bike or an electric scooter is in the moped/motorcycle category and needs to be registered like one. I don't like it, but it could perhaps be fixed with changing the regulations. However, e-scooters are really getting a bad reputation in the media lately and that is probably not helping the cause.
  - dzhiurgis 4y ago
    Whether its escooter or ebike - if you drive anywhere near 25km/h on pedestrian paths - it's already messed up. Do whatever you want on the road, so long your ebike can withstand 50km/h. No way escooters can do those speeds safely.
    - otabdeveloper4 4y ago
      > No way escooters can do those speeds safely. Of course they can, but you'll eventually be killed by a car. People drive like shit and don't care if they kill someone on a scooter.
  - liotier 4y ago
    For good reasons: increasing speed without uprating the rest of the system - brakes in particular, is looking for trouble. Also, 25 km/h vehicles are fit to mingle with bicycles on cycleways, whereas superior speeds belong on the road with the registered motorized traffic. Different beasts, different regulations. And then there is liability and insurance - those are why the clampdown will happen fast.
- nafest 4y ago
  Don’t you loose insurance in this case? Don’t know where you live, but in Germany you would.
Schroedingersat 4y ago
25km/h is a reasonable limit. It's the scooters that are unlicensed motorbikes and don't belong on bike paths or shared paths.
- popotamonga 4y ago
  Any half-fit cyclist can do way more than 25kmh sustained on flats. From 30 up it becomes way harder. I'd put it at least at 30.
  - gambiting 4y ago
    >>Any half-fit cyclist So like, almost no one who cycles/commutes from time to time then? Don't get me wrong, 25km/h isn't particularily fast, but I'd struggle going at that speed for more than few minutes, and my wife definitely wouldn't keep up. I used to cycle loads when I was younger, on a proper road bike that kind of speed is nothing. But on a hardtail or a city bike? It's actually quite hard! We own an e-bike and I think the 25km/h assist limit is spot on.
    - dzhiurgis 4y ago
      Good for you if you only intend to use bike paths. If you want to get on roads you need to sustain 50-60km/h, peak 70 in most cities. I'd much rather do that on a proper ebike and not on a escooter. I've got drivers licence already, bureaucracy shouldn't be in the way of registering ebikes as appropriate.
      - gambiting 4y ago
        >> If you want to get on roads you need to sustain 50-60km/h I'm sorry, but that's just not true - again, I used to cycle absolute loads(several thousand km a year) and "sustaining"(doing it for a long period of time without getting absolutely destroyed) 50km/h is extremely hard, you need to be a pretty good cyclist and on a good road bike. And no, you don't need to be keeping up with traffic, in cities or otherwise. Don't see why you think you should.
Youden 4y ago
Your profile says Auckland. The law in NZ [0, 1] doesn't specify a speed limit but a power limit of 300W. It looks like you can buy a 45km/h ebike like [2]. The reason you probably see a lot of 25km/h ebikes is that in the EU, anything faster than that is regulated as a moped and requires a license, so I imagine the 25km/h bikes sell more. The reason why even the faster bikes are 45km/h is also probably because that that's the maximum speed of a bicycle in the EU. [0]: https://gazette.govt.nz/notice/id/2013-au4618 https://gazette.govt.nz/notice/id/2013-au4618 [1]: https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/vehicle-types/low-powered-vehicles/ https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/vehicle-types/low-powered-... [2]: https://www.giant-bicycles.com/nz/fastroad-eplus-ex-pro-45kmh-2021 https://www.giant-bicycles.com/nz/fastroad-eplus-ex-pro-45km...
- pmontra 4y ago
  There is no maximum speed limit for bicycles in the EU AFAIK. They must obey standard speed limits so 50 km/h in cities or 90 outside (good luck with both of them) or whatever the limit is.
  - hpaavola 4y ago
    https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A32013R0168 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A... specifies that "Light two-wheel powered vehicle" can only go up to 45km/h. Edit: so, yes, no speed limit for bikes, but speed limit for ebikes.
    - LeonidasXIV 4y ago
      Yes, the difference is the "powered" part in the cited document. It's not terribly clear because they don't explicitly exclude acoustic bikes but they also never include acoustic bikes in any category that is to be legislated (article 4).
  - gambiting 4y ago
    >>They must obey standard speed limits so 50 km/h in cities or 90 outside (good luck with both of them) or whatever the limit is. There was a court case about this actually, lol. A cyclist was caught by a police car going above the posted speed limit(I think it was 30km/h where he was), and he refused to accept the ticket. The case went to court and he argued that since the law doesn't require bicycles to be fitted with any instrument to measure speed, he is not required to know the exact speed he's travelling at. And weirdly....the court agreed and the ticket was cancelled.
pmontra 4y ago
If you want to go 90 km/h shouldn't you be safer on a motorbike (electric or not) than on a bicycle? That's already sorted: license plate, driver license and insurance.
ehnto 4y ago
That's pretty much the same anywhere that chose to regulate it. It's about delineating between licensed and unlicensed users, and keeping a segment of vehicles off the footpaths. They essentially had to put the line in the sand somewhere, and they chose 25km/h. I can easily pedal faster than 25km/h, but the speed isn't really the whole point just a means to an end for regulatory purposes. That line in the sand does a few things: * Makes children ineligible for powered riding over 25km/h * Forces anything powered faster through the right safety standards testing * Applies a whole new segment of laws and penalties to your riding * (in my country) forces you to wear a helmet that could actually stand up to an accident on the road * Makes you join the liability/insurance infrastructure of licensed road use In a car first community (like most of the US) I think it makes a lot of sense, in a bike focused community I think it's worth debating a bit. It would be great to ride a long separated bike path at 30-40kmph powered to work. Dreamy. But that's pretty rapid at the scale of humans and bikes, 40kmph anywhere but a separated bike path is just asking for trouble.
- yokoprime 4y ago
  I ride an ebike where motor assist is limited up to 25km/h, and sometimes i whish EU regulation would allow it to just go a wee bit faster before the engine cuts out, e.g. 30-35 km/h. Thats no fast than coasting down a moderatly sized hill. I know you can hack your bike using various devices, but thats not worth it if I get into an accident.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  All that expensive regulation does a great job of cementing the status quo where people default to cars for commuting.
  - ehnto 4y ago
    It doesn't help no, but I think there are far bigger problems than that in the way of cycle commuting in most cities.

_8j50 4y ago

I disagree, just get a scooter at that point. Large part of the ebike appeal is You would not need a drivers license and registration for it.

Nursie 4y ago

That's kinda crazy... Here in Western Australia they're all limited to 25km/h, though you can go faster on the bike using your legs, the electronic assist must cut out there. How widely these rules are actually followed, I have no clue.

thevagrant 4y ago
The problem with my bike was after 27km/h the motor would cut out. you could pedal harder to go faster although it'd feel like pedalling through mud without the motor. Once I removed the speed limit, it is limited by my pedalling and the gearing speed combined with the limit of the motor. it feels natural like a bike.
- jackvalentine 4y ago
  Sadly, even with accoustic bikes you get the antisocial on shared paths riding furiously. I worry that if defeating assistance limiters becomes mainstream then the antisocial out there won't even need to exert themselves to ruin it for everyone.
  - thevagrant 4y ago
    It is true. I think the limit should be there by default, even though I modded mine. I talked to others in a cycle group and they commonly had older riders joining with a new ebike only to hurt themselves as their riding skills did not match the speed of their new bike. Personally I only ride full speed without the limiter when on the road. If riding on paths or populated areas then I slow down to a cruise.
    - jackvalentine 4y ago
      > older riders joining with a new ebike only to hurt themselves as their riding skills did not match the speed of their new bike. Apparently a big driver of injury rates increasing in The Netherlands - old people on new ebikes riding like they're 20 again.
rozenmd 4y ago
You can easily "game" the cut out by changing what the system thinks your tyre diameter is (depending on the system) Edit: not saying you should.
- thevagrant 4y ago
  Yes and some other systems have a magnet / sensor to measure speed so this can also be manipulated.

thevagrant 4y ago

You can buy modchips online that remove the speed limit. I did this for my ebike which was limited to 25km/h. With the modchip installed it can go much faster.

hddherman 4y ago
Some countries are starting to clamp down on shenanigans like this, since without the speed limit an e-bike or an electric scooter is in the moped/motorcycle category and needs to be registered like one. I don't like it, but it could perhaps be fixed with changing the regulations. However, e-scooters are really getting a bad reputation in the media lately and that is probably not helping the cause.
- dzhiurgis 4y ago
  Whether its escooter or ebike - if you drive anywhere near 25km/h on pedestrian paths - it's already messed up. Do whatever you want on the road, so long your ebike can withstand 50km/h. No way escooters can do those speeds safely.
  - otabdeveloper4 4y ago
    > No way escooters can do those speeds safely. Of course they can, but you'll eventually be killed by a car. People drive like shit and don't care if they kill someone on a scooter.
- liotier 4y ago
  For good reasons: increasing speed without uprating the rest of the system - brakes in particular, is looking for trouble. Also, 25 km/h vehicles are fit to mingle with bicycles on cycleways, whereas superior speeds belong on the road with the registered motorized traffic. Different beasts, different regulations. And then there is liability and insurance - those are why the clampdown will happen fast.
nafest 4y ago
Don’t you loose insurance in this case? Don’t know where you live, but in Germany you would.

Schroedingersat 4y ago

25km/h is a reasonable limit. It's the scooters that are unlicensed motorbikes and don't belong on bike paths or shared paths.

popotamonga 4y ago
Any half-fit cyclist can do way more than 25kmh sustained on flats. From 30 up it becomes way harder. I'd put it at least at 30.
- gambiting 4y ago
  >>Any half-fit cyclist So like, almost no one who cycles/commutes from time to time then? Don't get me wrong, 25km/h isn't particularily fast, but I'd struggle going at that speed for more than few minutes, and my wife definitely wouldn't keep up. I used to cycle loads when I was younger, on a proper road bike that kind of speed is nothing. But on a hardtail or a city bike? It's actually quite hard! We own an e-bike and I think the 25km/h assist limit is spot on.
  - dzhiurgis 4y ago
    Good for you if you only intend to use bike paths. If you want to get on roads you need to sustain 50-60km/h, peak 70 in most cities. I'd much rather do that on a proper ebike and not on a escooter. I've got drivers licence already, bureaucracy shouldn't be in the way of registering ebikes as appropriate.
    - gambiting 4y ago
      >> If you want to get on roads you need to sustain 50-60km/h I'm sorry, but that's just not true - again, I used to cycle absolute loads(several thousand km a year) and "sustaining"(doing it for a long period of time without getting absolutely destroyed) 50km/h is extremely hard, you need to be a pretty good cyclist and on a good road bike. And no, you don't need to be keeping up with traffic, in cities or otherwise. Don't see why you think you should.

Youden 4y ago

Your profile says Auckland. The law in NZ [0, 1] doesn't specify a speed limit but a power limit of 300W. It looks like you can buy a 45km/h ebike like [2]. The reason you probably see a lot of 25km/h ebikes is that in the EU, anything faster than that is regulated as a moped and requires a license, so I imagine the 25km/h bikes sell more. The reason why even the faster bikes are 45km/h is also probably because that that's the maximum speed of a bicycle in the EU. [0]: https://gazette.govt.nz/notice/id/2013-au4618 https://gazette.govt.nz/notice/id/2013-au4618 [1]: https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/vehicle-types/low-powered-vehicles/ https://www.nzta.govt.nz/vehicles/vehicle-types/low-powered-... [2]: https://www.giant-bicycles.com/nz/fastroad-eplus-ex-pro-45kmh-2021 https://www.giant-bicycles.com/nz/fastroad-eplus-ex-pro-45km...

pmontra 4y ago
There is no maximum speed limit for bicycles in the EU AFAIK. They must obey standard speed limits so 50 km/h in cities or 90 outside (good luck with both of them) or whatever the limit is.
- hpaavola 4y ago
  https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A32013R0168 https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/en/ALL/?uri=CELEX%3A... specifies that "Light two-wheel powered vehicle" can only go up to 45km/h. Edit: so, yes, no speed limit for bikes, but speed limit for ebikes.
  - LeonidasXIV 4y ago
    Yes, the difference is the "powered" part in the cited document. It's not terribly clear because they don't explicitly exclude acoustic bikes but they also never include acoustic bikes in any category that is to be legislated (article 4).
- gambiting 4y ago
  >>They must obey standard speed limits so 50 km/h in cities or 90 outside (good luck with both of them) or whatever the limit is. There was a court case about this actually, lol. A cyclist was caught by a police car going above the posted speed limit(I think it was 30km/h where he was), and he refused to accept the ticket. The case went to court and he argued that since the law doesn't require bicycles to be fitted with any instrument to measure speed, he is not required to know the exact speed he's travelling at. And weirdly....the court agreed and the ticket was cancelled.

pmontra 4y ago

If you want to go 90 km/h shouldn't you be safer on a motorbike (electric or not) than on a bicycle? That's already sorted: license plate, driver license and insurance.

ehnto 4y ago

That's pretty much the same anywhere that chose to regulate it. It's about delineating between licensed and unlicensed users, and keeping a segment of vehicles off the footpaths. They essentially had to put the line in the sand somewhere, and they chose 25km/h. I can easily pedal faster than 25km/h, but the speed isn't really the whole point just a means to an end for regulatory purposes. That line in the sand does a few things: * Makes children ineligible for powered riding over 25km/h * Forces anything powered faster through the right safety standards testing * Applies a whole new segment of laws and penalties to your riding * (in my country) forces you to wear a helmet that could actually stand up to an accident on the road * Makes you join the liability/insurance infrastructure of licensed road use In a car first community (like most of the US) I think it makes a lot of sense, in a bike focused community I think it's worth debating a bit. It would be great to ride a long separated bike path at 30-40kmph powered to work. Dreamy. But that's pretty rapid at the scale of humans and bikes, 40kmph anywhere but a separated bike path is just asking for trouble.

yokoprime 4y ago
I ride an ebike where motor assist is limited up to 25km/h, and sometimes i whish EU regulation would allow it to just go a wee bit faster before the engine cuts out, e.g. 30-35 km/h. Thats no fast than coasting down a moderatly sized hill. I know you can hack your bike using various devices, but thats not worth it if I get into an accident.
throwaway0a5e 4y ago
All that expensive regulation does a great job of cementing the status quo where people default to cars for commuting.
- ehnto 4y ago
  It doesn't help no, but I think there are far bigger problems than that in the way of cycle commuting in most cities.