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I don't have a horse in this race at all, but the annoying part is that the same rules don't get applied across the board. Everything they're accusing TikTok of

by snehk 4y ago

I don't have a horse in this race at all, but the annoying part is that the same rules don't get applied across the board. Everything they're accusing TikTok of - from data harvesting to the government having access to said data - is true for western companies as well and that should be the problem. Not the fact that the data is now in the hands of the Chinese but that the data is being collected at all provided to the government. The problem should be that the data is collected and provided to the government whenever they want - not that it's not the Chinese government. We had this discussion after the Snowden leaks and nothing changed whatsoever. Back then it was the US government and the US gov had the chance to change the rules so this could not happen. Now they're up in arms because other governments do the exact same thing. It's really annoying. Ban every app that collects "problematic" user info. Make the collection itself illegal, give users control about their data but don't argue that the practice suddenly becomes problematic when others do it.

montag 4y ago
"I don't have a horse in this race, but (impassioned rant about what the horses should do, which ones should win or lose, and why...)" As consumers, we do have a horse in the race. I would cheer for the horse with fewer regulations, but that's just me...
- snehk 4y ago
  I meant that as in "I don't use their apps" and it doesn't affect me whether they're available on the app stores or not.
- biohacker85 4y ago
  I don't see the contradiction. You can have a strong opinion about something without being affected by its outcome.
_8j50 4y ago
American companies working against national security will be held accountable. A Chinese companh working against american national security will be celebrated at home instead.
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  ... as will be an American company working against Chinese national security. Kettle. Pot.
  - _8j50 4y ago
    Sort of, the american people will not celebrate to the most part apple or google working against the chinese government but the american government will sure cheer them on. But the Chinese people will be on CCP's side if it works against american national security, the CCP has popular support in China because of the economic improvements it has enabled.
    - DocTomoe 4y ago
      Yeah, you might update your view of other countries eventually. What you are describing are North-Korean-style mass "protests", often at gunpoint, in which it appears that a large mass of people cheer for the fall of the 'great imperialist demon'. Go talk to Chinese or Iranians or [insert future mortal enemy of the US], and you'll see: a population most often could not care less what the US does (or what is done against the US), unless the US is currently in the process of murdering said population. Hell, even the Vietnamese don't hate on the US as much these days - even though they'd have every reason to.
      - _8j50 4y ago
        I am not talking about protests but actual Chinese people and their views. They are very supportive of the CCP. Chinese expats however tend to be mostly pro-US
- simmerup 4y ago
  A Chinese company would likely be staffed by CCP members and funded by the Chinese government to work against American national security if there was opportunity to do so
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
NhanH 4y ago
The rule for all sides has always been “protect your own interest”. The propaganda might have been different, but that’s another thing altogether.
blululu 4y ago
Perhaps there is a reason why China’s government bans all the American Social Media companies. If they could undermine the country’s sovereignty then it would be a significant difference.
- snehk 4y ago
  They ban them because the companies don't want to follow the same rules Chinese companies have to follow. It's exactly what I'm asking for. Have one set of rules and apply them to everyone. Ban data harvesting completely. Ban it for Facebook, Google and everyone else and then kick out TikTok because they don't follow the rules.
  - dubswithus 4y ago
    They ban them because they won’t censor factual information and won’t promote disinformation. See how Chinese censorship applies to mRNA vaccine conspiracy theories. A person that debunked them was banned from wechat. Do you see western governments doing this?
    - shreyshnaccount 4y ago
      no, in the west we see companies banning content, not the govt. pot, kettle.
      - dubswithus 4y ago
        What social media company in the US bans positive coverage of mRNA vaccines? In the US algorithms ban content, often by mistake. In China a political official or someone working for the government reviews the content personally. Big difference.
        therealasdf 4y ago
        Twitter bans negative coverage
        4y ago
oxff 4y ago
Of course the rules don't get applied to Western companies, that is a ridiculous proposition: to ask a state to limit its own power. > The problem should be that the data is collected and provided to the government whenever they want Maybe in someone's ideal world that doesn't exist this could be the problem formulation. In real world, TikTok is not strictly under control of EUSIAN blob so it's a threat and it's natural for state to restrict its influence.
teawrecks 4y ago
You're assuming the government's goal is to treat all countries and companies fairly. It's not. It will always make decisions in its own interests. Whether that is ethical is neither here nor there, I can't imagine of a world where that's not the case.
raxxorraxor 4y ago
You could argue that a data hoarder in a jurisdiction other than your own is even less significant for personal data security. I agree though that western companies more or less don't have any case here as they behave the same way as TikTok in China. They are just less dishonest about it. Furthermore the behavior of intelligence agencies sanctioned this kind of surveillance. Ironically the decreased trust will be vastly more relevant to lessened security than their surveillance attempts could ever make up for. So they failed their primary mission too. In a supposedly free country it is a strategy that only produces losers and there is not change in sight.
- p1necone 4y ago
  > You could argue that a data hoarder in a jurisdiction other than your own is even less significant for personal data security. I kinda feel this way. On a national security level, China having everyone's data is absolutely a disaster. But on a personal level - if I lived in the United States, I would rather the Chinese government surveil me than the US government.
  - dubswithus 4y ago
    They aren’t just going to surveil you though. They will actively work to promote disinformation to you.
    - DocTomoe 4y ago
      The more I read about the dangers of disinformation, the more I get the idea that 'disinformation' just means 'information my current government does not agree with'.
      - j3th9n 4y ago
        Welcome to the Matrix.
      - dubswithus 4y ago
        The US government does not agree with China that the US army created SARS-CoV-2 in a lab. But every scientist and rational person also doesn't agree with China. You're going to have to update your definition. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/vaccines-coronavirus-china-conspiracy-theories/2021/01/20/89bd3d2a-5a2d-11eb-a849-6f9423a75ffd_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/vaccines-c...
hackerlight 4y ago
> but don't argue that the practice suddenly becomes problematic when others do it. The extent to which it's problematic depends on who's doing it, even if all cases are problematic.
- Barrin92 4y ago
  Ironically I think you can make a pretty strong case that both the Chinese and American governments are more of a threat to their own citizens data wise given that citizens tend to primarily be pestered within their own jurisdiction.
  - hackerlight 4y ago
    That's not unreasonable. What I'd disagree with is if people thought a company based in a foreign liberal democracy presented a similar threat to a company based in China, which has an authoritarian government where state & corporations are largely merged and which is entangled in balance of power disputes with the US.
    - sudosysgen 4y ago
      The US acts exactly like an authoritarian country in foreign interactions. Murder, wars of aggression, facilitating genocide, espionage, and so on. History shows that if you are not American then the US will treat you as if it is an authoritarian state.
      - quantum_solanum 4y ago
        Or if you're American and Black, gay, Indigenous, etc
johnywalks 4y ago
The audacity of the US. They literally spy and collect data from the whole internet - not just US citizens, EVERYONE! Data collection aside - relying on a single Appstore that is governed by US law is not acceptable.
- drstewart 4y ago
  Don't forget the audacity of the EU, who try to fine US companies for data collection but then spy on their citizens and the internet! https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/11/french-officials-internet-users-real-time-law https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/11/french-officia... https://phys.org/news/2018-05-german-spy-agency-tabs-internet.html https://phys.org/news/2018-05-german-spy-agency-tabs-interne... https://www.thelocal.de/20200519/court-slams-german-spies-foreign-internet-surveillance/ https://www.thelocal.de/20200519/court-slams-german-spies-fo... https://www.thetrumpet.com/17338-germany-can-legally-spy-on-its-own-citizens https://www.thetrumpet.com/17338-germany-can-legally-spy-on-... https://www.rfi.fr/en/france/20210708-french-spy-agency-dgsi-emerges-from-shadows-with-first-website https://www.rfi.fr/en/france/20210708-french-spy-agency-dgsi... https://www.france24.com/en/20130704-france-uses-vast-electronic-spying-network-monde-dgse https://www.france24.com/en/20130704-france-uses-vast-electr...
  - Bewelge 4y ago
    Not that I condone secret services collecting data in the way they do, but you're confusing state agencies collecting data with private companies collecting data. And while I do think that state agencies nowadays have crossed most lines of what may be be deemed acceptable it should still be clear that in some cases it's necessary for a government to have the authority to do things a normal citizen doesn't (eg you're not allowed to sentence people to jail, vigilantism etc). Also one of the articles is actually about a German court striking down one of the surveillance tactics so this just sounds like whataboutism to defend one nation and bash another. Despite all its faults, concerning spying and data-collection, the EU is likely the smallest offender out of the big players in this world.
    - 4y ago
thepangolino 4y ago
>data harvesting to the government having access to said data - is true for western companies as well and that should be the problem Very much this. As a European who doesn't intent to set a single foot in China, I'm much more comfortable at the thought of China having my data than my own government.
- cudgy 4y ago
  What if your government gets the data anyway? Hackers could hack TikTok servers and release data or sell to interested parties. Your government may already be tracking your TikTok usage by sniffing traffic on intermediate servers or other measures. Or China may even sell or share this information (or worse, manipulated false information) for strategic purposes.
  - AlexandrB 4y ago
    All good points that equally apply to Meta/Google/etc. why does TikTok deserve special treatment here other than economic protectionism?
    - unethical_ban 4y ago
      I feel like I need to use clapping hands emojis to get the point across, but I will refrain. --- The US government is more ethical and more respectful of the rule of law and human rights than Russia or China. Let me paste it in again, so we know it isn't a typo: The US government is more ethical and more respectful of the rule of law and human rights than Russia or China. --- The US government is not perfect. Portions of the US government are a danger to the rights of some people, particularly civilians in the middle east. Regarding "cyber", it has several major stains on its history, including PRISM, XKeyscore, warrantless wiretapping, and the current president's support of the Clipper chip in the 90s. I support privacy protections on mobile devices and mobile apps, and support in general stronger regulations against the collection of personal information by tech giants. I resent Meta and Google for the amount of data they collect about me and everyone I know with any Android device/Meta app installed. Every statement I have made can be made while non-hypocritically supporting the statement by the FCC regarding TikTok. It isn't just economic protectionism - it's national security. I don't think a Chinese politician or military official should have Facebook or Instagram installed on their mobile phone, either.
germandiago 4y ago
100% agree with this.
acchow 4y ago
Obviously the FCC, being under the US government, does not care that your data is being collected by the US government
gambiting 4y ago
>>Everything they're accusing TikTok of - from data harvesting to the government having access to said data - is true for western companies as well and that should be the problem The thing is, yes Facebook and Google's data collection is horrendous, but TikTok it literally on another level. Quite a good explanation here: https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/comment/fmuko1m/ https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/comment/fmuk...
- janekm 4y ago
  Personally I feel this is as much a failing of of mobile OSs as anything else. As long as we have an environment where ad networks think it's desirable to collect this kind of information it's going to get collected, whether by TikTok or ad networks. Apple at least attempt to limit what data is accessible by apps, Google is less incentivized to do so. It's not much help to "ban TikTok" while the ad networks run wild. If we're going to be worried about China I doubt it'd be too much trouble for them to place a few engineers into ad networks and exfiltrate the data from there.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    Maybe the governments should force mobile OS to provide absolute zero information about anything to apps. If the apps can't get anything they can't leak anything.
    - hulitu 4y ago
      The governments are the direct beneficiaries of this data collection either directly or indirectly.
      - gzer0 4y ago
        Exactly right. As can be seen via the purchases of large swaths of private location data by the Department of Homeland Security and other government entities, essentially side stepping US citizens’ 4th amendment rights [1]. [1] https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/new-records-detail-dhs-purchase-and-use-of-vast-quantities-of-cell-phone-location-data https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/new-records-det...
Cthulhu_ 4y ago
That's what the GDPR was designed for, it doesn't solve it but it helps mitigate the problem for individuals.
daptaq 4y ago
I am probably being naive, but I'd like to see the banning of TikTok as a precedence case for the banning of other abusive networks in the future, whatever country they may operate from.
- cudgy 4y ago
  Wouldn’t that be great? Unfortunately, unless it benefits the critical stakeholders (eg military complex and corporate elite), actions like this will be discriminatory, selective and rare.
lapser 4y ago
FWIW, and this in no way defending western companies and governments, according to research, TikTok collects vastly more data that the worst western culprit - Facebook. Still, my guess is that additional data TikTok collects is probably not that important for the likes of FB and western governments, so perhaps it's a moot point.
NoboruWataya 4y ago
This isn't about TikTok posing a security risk to the consumer. It's about TikTok posing a security risk to the state. Of course the FCC, which is effectively an arm of the US government, is not going to be as concerned about corporations handing your data over to the US government.
- yieldcrv 4y ago
  many of us would prefer they say it that way, then
bamboozled 4y ago
> Everything they're accusing TikTok of - from data harvesting to the government having access to said data - is true for western companies as well and that should be the problem. Not the fact that the data is now in the hands of the Chinese but that the data is being collected at all provided to the government. Yes western governments are totally full of shit too, the proof of this is that Julian Assange is still being crucified for leaking information, for being a whistle blower. We're all so trained to thinking the Government is ok now that it's really hard to know what to do about it.
- FreqSep 4y ago
  > Yes western governments are totally full of shit too, the proof of this is that Julian Assange is still being crucified for leaking information, for being a whistle blower. That’s just not true. Many leakers and whistle blowers aren’t prosecuted every year. Julian Assange is a pretty transparent Russian asset and has been for a number of years. There’s a reason he never leaks anything that is negative of Putin. Meanwhile if it’s anti-American he leaks it in full without taking any standard journalist precautions. Of course he can pull the “I’m just a journalist bro” card, but the act is over and his time is up.
  - AlexandrB 4y ago
    > Meanwhile if it’s anti-American he leaks it in full without taking any standard journalist precautions. If it's true, what does saying it's anti-American mean? Would you rather be in the dark about shady shit your government is doing? It's entirely possible that he just has better access to US sources than Russian ones.
    - FreqSep 4y ago
      > If it's true, what does saying it's anti-American mean? Would you rather be in the dark about shady shit your government is doing? Sure, as long as it’s accompanied by safe journalist practices (which it isn’t) and also calls out the shady shit of other, opposed, countries (which (which it doesn’t). > It’s entirely possible that he just has better access to US sources than Russian ones. That’s fine and possible, but even if that wasn’t the case - and he had access to Russian leaks but didn’t leak them - this is still exactly what he would say. And it’s possible both are true - that he’s simply releasing what is given to him, and the Russian state saw this and took the opportunity to feed him information as a result. At that point, after he has continually irresponsibly released covert information from a hostile state, how is he any different in practice than an intentional hostile actor?
cloutchaser 4y ago
Underlying your point there is an assumption that Chinese government = American government in it's misuse of data etc. I don't think this is true. And I've run a privacy advocate organisation and I'm a complete Snowden fanboy. But if I had to choose between giving my data to the CCP or the American government, the choice is easy. Even though a lot of data collection was done without warrants in the USA, there's been a lot of blowback, and there is still changing presidents/executive, changing representatives, and rule of law (not perfect, but still there). On the other side you have a CCP rolling out social scoring, running concentration camps, etc etc. It's just not the same. Let's not pretend it is somehow equivalent.
- dvngnt_ 4y ago
  China can't do anything that the US government cant already do. I'd rather China have my data as they can't touch me
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  > Even though a lot of data collection was done without warrants in the USA, there's been a lot of blowback... Was there? Who went to jail for it? Did anyone even get fired? James Clapper lied to Congress[1] about data collection, the only reason we even know is a leaker who can never return to the US for his "crimes". Meanwhile Clapper served out the rest of Obama's presidency and now has a cushy job at CNN[2]. If this "blowback", accountability is dead. [1] https://www.techdirt.com/2013/07/02/james-clapper-admits-he-lied-to-congress-even-his-excuse-is-misleading/ https://www.techdirt.com/2013/07/02/james-clapper-admits-he-... [2] https://dailycaller.com/2019/08/23/cnn-msnbc-15-spooks-mccabe/ https://dailycaller.com/2019/08/23/cnn-msnbc-15-spooks-mccab...
guyomes 4y ago
> Make the collection itself illegal, give users control about their data Here is another idea that could give users control about their data, and that could be more easily accepted by governments and companies. All the data of user X living in country Y should be stored on a server handled by country Y. Moreover, add the following features: - User X should be able to see all the people and companies that have access to his or her data. - Country Y could put some tax on each request, that should cover at least the costs for maintening the servers. This would give users more control about their data, and this would give countries more compensation on the monetizable data coming from its land. The compensation would be a motivation for the governments to implement and maintain these servers. Moreover, as opposed to a full ban on data collection, this approach might be accepted by companies since they would still be able to work with users data: just now they would need to pay for them and also they would need to let users know exactly who they sell the data to. In particular, if they sell the data to agressive ads companies, this would be known by the users and this could decrease their reputation. From a technical point of view it seems doable and a service with similar features is already implemented in Estonia for example [1]. [1]: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12553-017-0195-1 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12553-017-0195-1
ComodoHacker 4y ago
In other news, Russian government is going to enact a law[0] that would require businesses to provide collected personal data to the government on demand. Not anonymized and without personal consent. The presumption is a single governmental agency would anonymize it, properly store, protect and provide anonymized datasets to other agencies and businesses to develop on. This is already being called 'data nationalization'. 0. https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/5458430 https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/5458430 (Russian)
yorwba 4y ago
> the annoying part is that the same rules don't get applied across the board The same rules mostly do get applied across the board, which is why this story is about some guy writing a letter to private companies asking them to please find TikTok in breach of those companies' terms of service. He doesn't actually have sweeping powers of censorship that would allow him to just ban them on a whim, so he does the next best thing and raises his political profile so he might get considered for a more important job the next time his political party is in power. I think it's unlikely that Apple or Google will find TikTok to be in breach of their terms, and even less likely that Americans will be completely banned from accessing TikTok.
RandomLensman 4y ago
That might be a reason to generally block more data collection, but not to allow the Chinese government to continue to collect data - unless the argument is that collection is kind of "indivisible", i.e., as soon as anyone collects anything everything is "lost".
t0suj4 4y ago
Maybe you should look up civil-military fusion in China
mihaic 4y ago
I'm completely against this surveilance capitalism that's pursued by big tech, but asking the US gov to use the same rules "for everyone" seems naive and bad for the world economy. All countries have primarily a duty to their citizens, and only then to foreign entities. Even though there are plenty of points of improvement the US can make here, accepting that at least some discrimination against external citizens or companies should happen seems to be an axiom of governmental organization. I'm European btw and have a US-incorporated start-up.
- __alexs 4y ago
  > All countries have primarily a duty to their citizens, and only then to foreign entities. There is no innate duty of a state to anyone, it's a function of the policies of the people we elect. In many peoples view laws should apply equally regardless of where you are from.
  - mihaic 4y ago
    If laws apply equally even to foreigners, then what's the purpose of the concept of citizenship? All people I know will treat their childred differently than random children on the playground, I'd imagine some analogy to this situation is not entirely lost on anyone.
LatteLazy 4y ago
Plus the chinese government has zero interest in 99% of westerners. Your local national government are far more likely to misuse that data...
whywhywhywhy 4y ago
I don't think its about data at all, I think it's that they're scared China has control of a system they can feed whatever narrative they want on an individual level and whole parts of society in the west are hopelessly addicted to it. From the data listed, it's a lot but personally with the current state of mobile os computing none of this seems all that out of the ordinary, it's just what is the sad state of those platforms. This is why I think the data is being used as an excuse.
- SubiculumCode 4y ago
  THe app does seem to push agendas sometimes, although its just probably the algo. You spend a little extra time on one type of content, and boom that's now a big portion of what you'll see...but I could totally see that the feed could be used to bend minds towards or away from certain ideas through a subtle type of propaganda.
fareesh 4y ago
Purely in theory: Eligible US Voters can elect a new US Government at various branches and change what US companies do with data through regulations/legislation. Even that theoretical route is not possible when it comes to a foreign company. Therefore the FCC guy (who is theoretically beholden to US citizens, or wanting to be perceived that way, or wanting to do so for his buddies at Western tech companies) is making the recommendation.
bottled_poe 4y ago
No. This is too simplistic. All systems of government are not equal. It’s disingenuous to claim otherwise.
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
Data collection is passive. TikTok, for all intents and purposes, is run by the Chinese communist government. Facebook has already shown that they can alter moods: https://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/06/28/326453204/facebook-scientists-alter-newsfeeds-find-emotions-are-affected-by-it https://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/06/28/326453204/fa... It's a numbers game. They have ~80,000,000 Americans tuned in. They can turn knobs when they need to alter US public opinion. A subtle shift of 80,000,000 people is big. Many people also get their news from TikTok: > TikTok, on the other hand, has seen a slight uptick in the portion of users who say they regularly get news on the site, rising from 22% to 29% in this period. https://www.pewresearch.org/journalism/2021/09/20/news-consumption-across-social-media-in-2021/ https://www.pewresearch.org/journalism/2021/09/20/news-consu...
kibwen 4y ago
Hear hear. We don't need selective takedowns of foreign intelligence assets for the sake of scoring political brownie points, we need strong privacy laws that apply to every company, including domestic ones. Unfortunately, half of the users on this forum don't want to hear this because their paycheck depends on being complicit in the gross violation of individual privacy.
- entirelylin 4y ago
  this
anony999 4y ago
I think things will move in the right direction. Next we should see Europe ban meta apps in Europe. Let's own our data again. Make the apps store data locally only.
duxup 4y ago
Personally I have no problem with generally addressing privacy…. AND taking special note when significantly less free nations are involved. Less free nations are worthy of special attention.
mrjin 4y ago
I don't think it really has anything to do with whatever FCC claims.
tablespoon 4y ago
> The problem should be that the data is collected and provided to the government whenever they want - not that it's not the Chinese government. We had this discussion after the Snowden leaks and nothing changed whatsoever. Back then it was the US government and the US gov had the chance to change the rules so this could not happen. Now they're up in arms because other governments do the exact same thing. It's really annoying. The differentiator here is national security, which raises an entirely different set of issues than the typical data collection and user privacy ones. It's like the difference between sharing your bank password with your wife vs. some dude you aren't very friendly with who has a history of wire fraud. "Treat everyone the same" is not a workable policy.
- thematrixturtle 4y ago
  That's... not a great analogy. I trust my wife a lot more than I trust Mark Zuckerberg (or Xi Jinping).
  - TrispusAttucks 4y ago
    Yes but the United States government trusts Mark Zuckerberg more than Xi Jinping.
    - bjelkeman-again 4y ago
      Isn’t it that they can get access to all of Facebooks data on request, but not so with TikTok? I doubt trust comes into it.
    - cronix 4y ago
      Of course they do - they work together. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zqEvQKO5_gM https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zqEvQKO5_gM
  - sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
  - lazide 4y ago
draw_down 4y ago
srcreigh 4y ago
Of course they don't get applied across the board. As much as TikTok is a US national security risk, Google/Meta massively gathering data about citizens of other countries is a US national security asset. The problem with privacy law is that some foreign powers won't abide by the laws. It's not unlike violence- a country can try to make a global law saying "Nobody is allowed to have a military", but if they actually get rid of their military, they will just get taken over by a different country which does have a military.
- DrScientist 4y ago
  > Google/Meta massively gathering data about citizens of other countries is a national security asset. Depends which nation you are in right? The world isn't split into two: US or China.
  - simonsarris 4y ago
    National security generally depends on which nation you are in or allied with, yes. I wonder if, for instance, Google an Meta are banned in China.
  - srcreigh 4y ago
    Updated my comment. I'm Canadian. I'm sure in some ways US national security assets benefit certain other countries too, but I'm not sure specifically what that might be.
- thematrixturtle 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_arme... has 21 entries, including Iceland, Panama and Costa Rica.
lazide 4y ago
As far as the gov’t is concerned, when it’s then doing it, it’s ‘for our own good’. when it’s another gov’t doing it, it’s a national security risk. Which shouldn’t be too big of a surprise I guess, especially since ‘national security risk’ almost always means ‘threat to gov’t security in practice’. That won’t change unless there is some kind of disaster that makes it untenable. I mean, just look at Nuclear proliferation for a really clear example.
encoderer 4y ago
China is owned by a murderous, oppressive, genocidal regime. There is no equivalence with western governments.
giantg2 4y ago
"but don't argue that the practice suddenly becomes problematic when others do it." That's a matter of perspective. From the US perspective, it's much more problematic for an adversary to have information about their personnel.
chaostheory 4y ago
The difference is that we’ll probably be in a Cold War with China soon.
classified 4y ago
Closing the barn door after the horses have bolted is too little too late. Everyone has these capabilities now. And the FCC is not neutral, of course it makes a difference to them whether domestic agencies get their hands on the data or foreign ones.
snarf21 4y ago
Exactly right. The don't want anyone doing what they are busy doing. The nerve of some countries!!! We've away some much privacy just for the lols. We need laws and penalties that give us back our freedom. Unfortunately, given politicians continual demand for back doors that will "only be used legally with a warrant", I see little hope that things will change.
seventytwo 4y ago
You’re trying to apply kindergarten-level ideas of fairness to a technological Cold War. In theory, you’re right - it would be great if everyone could just get along and be nice! But, well… It’s similar to the paradox of intolerance… the paradox of force. Should we live by the rules of fairness while others don’t? Should we expose ourselves to the same risks that others expose themselves just out of fairness?
nimbius 4y ago
the fact that the rhetoric and wardrumming has not abated seems to indicate FAANG players are facing a no-win situation when it comes to competition. The fact that Facebook and Youtube shorts are near-nightly parity scrapes of Tiktok content and they still cant manage to staunch the loss of viewers is a pretty damning indictment of the leadership at these groups. Huawei went through basically the same thing when western chip companies and telcos were beat to market by nearly a year for 5G. Grinding the red scare axe to an audience of bought and paid for octogenarians is still a pretty good grift it seems.
glenstein 4y ago
>The problem should be that the data is collected and provided to the government whenever they want - not that it's not the Chinese government. I disagree, because this is a "both things can be true" situation. It's true that data collection is a problem inherently and it's true that China's unprecedented scale of use and abuse of data escalates the urgency of Tiktok's case in particular. I also think as a practical matter, "we should apply this to all apps" has the functional effect of being a poison pill ensuring nothing gets done. I think we should accept imperfect forward iterations to improve security over poison pills.
sensanaty 4y ago
As someone who despises companies like Google, Facebook etc, I can easily and confidently say if my choice was between them harvesting all the data about me that exists in the world and TikTok (or anything else that's China-related in any way, shape or form) doing the same, I'll pick the former 11 out of 10 times.

by snehk 4y ago

montag 4y ago

"I don't have a horse in this race, but (impassioned rant about what the horses should do, which ones should win or lose, and why...)" As consumers, we do have a horse in the race. I would cheer for the horse with fewer regulations, but that's just me...

snehk 4y ago
I meant that as in "I don't use their apps" and it doesn't affect me whether they're available on the app stores or not.
biohacker85 4y ago
I don't see the contradiction. You can have a strong opinion about something without being affected by its outcome.

_8j50 4y ago

American companies working against national security will be held accountable. A Chinese companh working against american national security will be celebrated at home instead.

DocTomoe 4y ago
... as will be an American company working against Chinese national security. Kettle. Pot.
- _8j50 4y ago
  Sort of, the american people will not celebrate to the most part apple or google working against the chinese government but the american government will sure cheer them on. But the Chinese people will be on CCP's side if it works against american national security, the CCP has popular support in China because of the economic improvements it has enabled.
  - DocTomoe 4y ago
    Yeah, you might update your view of other countries eventually. What you are describing are North-Korean-style mass "protests", often at gunpoint, in which it appears that a large mass of people cheer for the fall of the 'great imperialist demon'. Go talk to Chinese or Iranians or [insert future mortal enemy of the US], and you'll see: a population most often could not care less what the US does (or what is done against the US), unless the US is currently in the process of murdering said population. Hell, even the Vietnamese don't hate on the US as much these days - even though they'd have every reason to.
    - _8j50 4y ago
      I am not talking about protests but actual Chinese people and their views. They are very supportive of the CCP. Chinese expats however tend to be mostly pro-US
simmerup 4y ago
A Chinese company would likely be staffed by CCP members and funded by the Chinese government to work against American national security if there was opportunity to do so
peoplefromibiza 4y ago

NhanH 4y ago

The rule for all sides has always been “protect your own interest”. The propaganda might have been different, but that’s another thing altogether.

blululu 4y ago

Perhaps there is a reason why China’s government bans all the American Social Media companies. If they could undermine the country’s sovereignty then it would be a significant difference.

snehk 4y ago
They ban them because the companies don't want to follow the same rules Chinese companies have to follow. It's exactly what I'm asking for. Have one set of rules and apply them to everyone. Ban data harvesting completely. Ban it for Facebook, Google and everyone else and then kick out TikTok because they don't follow the rules.
- dubswithus 4y ago
  They ban them because they won’t censor factual information and won’t promote disinformation. See how Chinese censorship applies to mRNA vaccine conspiracy theories. A person that debunked them was banned from wechat. Do you see western governments doing this?
  - shreyshnaccount 4y ago
    no, in the west we see companies banning content, not the govt. pot, kettle.
    - dubswithus 4y ago
      What social media company in the US bans positive coverage of mRNA vaccines? In the US algorithms ban content, often by mistake. In China a political official or someone working for the government reviews the content personally. Big difference.
      - therealasdf 4y ago
        Twitter bans negative coverage
      - 4y ago

oxff 4y ago

Of course the rules don't get applied to Western companies, that is a ridiculous proposition: to ask a state to limit its own power. > The problem should be that the data is collected and provided to the government whenever they want Maybe in someone's ideal world that doesn't exist this could be the problem formulation. In real world, TikTok is not strictly under control of EUSIAN blob so it's a threat and it's natural for state to restrict its influence.

teawrecks 4y ago

You're assuming the government's goal is to treat all countries and companies fairly. It's not. It will always make decisions in its own interests. Whether that is ethical is neither here nor there, I can't imagine of a world where that's not the case.

raxxorraxor 4y ago

You could argue that a data hoarder in a jurisdiction other than your own is even less significant for personal data security. I agree though that western companies more or less don't have any case here as they behave the same way as TikTok in China. They are just less dishonest about it. Furthermore the behavior of intelligence agencies sanctioned this kind of surveillance. Ironically the decreased trust will be vastly more relevant to lessened security than their surveillance attempts could ever make up for. So they failed their primary mission too. In a supposedly free country it is a strategy that only produces losers and there is not change in sight.

p1necone 4y ago
> You could argue that a data hoarder in a jurisdiction other than your own is even less significant for personal data security. I kinda feel this way. On a national security level, China having everyone's data is absolutely a disaster. But on a personal level - if I lived in the United States, I would rather the Chinese government surveil me than the US government.
- dubswithus 4y ago
  They aren’t just going to surveil you though. They will actively work to promote disinformation to you.
  - DocTomoe 4y ago
    The more I read about the dangers of disinformation, the more I get the idea that 'disinformation' just means 'information my current government does not agree with'.
    - j3th9n 4y ago
      Welcome to the Matrix.
    - dubswithus 4y ago
      The US government does not agree with China that the US army created SARS-CoV-2 in a lab. But every scientist and rational person also doesn't agree with China. You're going to have to update your definition. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/vaccines-coronavirus-china-conspiracy-theories/2021/01/20/89bd3d2a-5a2d-11eb-a849-6f9423a75ffd_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/vaccines-c...

hackerlight 4y ago

> but don't argue that the practice suddenly becomes problematic when others do it. The extent to which it's problematic depends on who's doing it, even if all cases are problematic.

Barrin92 4y ago
Ironically I think you can make a pretty strong case that both the Chinese and American governments are more of a threat to their own citizens data wise given that citizens tend to primarily be pestered within their own jurisdiction.
- hackerlight 4y ago
  That's not unreasonable. What I'd disagree with is if people thought a company based in a foreign liberal democracy presented a similar threat to a company based in China, which has an authoritarian government where state & corporations are largely merged and which is entangled in balance of power disputes with the US.
  - sudosysgen 4y ago
    The US acts exactly like an authoritarian country in foreign interactions. Murder, wars of aggression, facilitating genocide, espionage, and so on. History shows that if you are not American then the US will treat you as if it is an authoritarian state.
    - quantum_solanum 4y ago
      Or if you're American and Black, gay, Indigenous, etc

johnywalks 4y ago

The audacity of the US. They literally spy and collect data from the whole internet - not just US citizens, EVERYONE! Data collection aside - relying on a single Appstore that is governed by US law is not acceptable.

drstewart 4y ago
Don't forget the audacity of the EU, who try to fine US companies for data collection but then spy on their citizens and the internet! https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/11/french-officials-internet-users-real-time-law https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/11/french-officia... https://phys.org/news/2018-05-german-spy-agency-tabs-internet.html https://phys.org/news/2018-05-german-spy-agency-tabs-interne... https://www.thelocal.de/20200519/court-slams-german-spies-foreign-internet-surveillance/ https://www.thelocal.de/20200519/court-slams-german-spies-fo... https://www.thetrumpet.com/17338-germany-can-legally-spy-on-its-own-citizens https://www.thetrumpet.com/17338-germany-can-legally-spy-on-... https://www.rfi.fr/en/france/20210708-french-spy-agency-dgsi-emerges-from-shadows-with-first-website https://www.rfi.fr/en/france/20210708-french-spy-agency-dgsi... https://www.france24.com/en/20130704-france-uses-vast-electronic-spying-network-monde-dgse https://www.france24.com/en/20130704-france-uses-vast-electr...
- Bewelge 4y ago
  Not that I condone secret services collecting data in the way they do, but you're confusing state agencies collecting data with private companies collecting data. And while I do think that state agencies nowadays have crossed most lines of what may be be deemed acceptable it should still be clear that in some cases it's necessary for a government to have the authority to do things a normal citizen doesn't (eg you're not allowed to sentence people to jail, vigilantism etc). Also one of the articles is actually about a German court striking down one of the surveillance tactics so this just sounds like whataboutism to defend one nation and bash another. Despite all its faults, concerning spying and data-collection, the EU is likely the smallest offender out of the big players in this world.
  - 4y ago

thepangolino 4y ago

>data harvesting to the government having access to said data - is true for western companies as well and that should be the problem Very much this. As a European who doesn't intent to set a single foot in China, I'm much more comfortable at the thought of China having my data than my own government.

cudgy 4y ago
What if your government gets the data anyway? Hackers could hack TikTok servers and release data or sell to interested parties. Your government may already be tracking your TikTok usage by sniffing traffic on intermediate servers or other measures. Or China may even sell or share this information (or worse, manipulated false information) for strategic purposes.
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  All good points that equally apply to Meta/Google/etc. why does TikTok deserve special treatment here other than economic protectionism?
  - unethical_ban 4y ago
    I feel like I need to use clapping hands emojis to get the point across, but I will refrain. --- The US government is more ethical and more respectful of the rule of law and human rights than Russia or China. Let me paste it in again, so we know it isn't a typo: The US government is more ethical and more respectful of the rule of law and human rights than Russia or China. --- The US government is not perfect. Portions of the US government are a danger to the rights of some people, particularly civilians in the middle east. Regarding "cyber", it has several major stains on its history, including PRISM, XKeyscore, warrantless wiretapping, and the current president's support of the Clipper chip in the 90s. I support privacy protections on mobile devices and mobile apps, and support in general stronger regulations against the collection of personal information by tech giants. I resent Meta and Google for the amount of data they collect about me and everyone I know with any Android device/Meta app installed. Every statement I have made can be made while non-hypocritically supporting the statement by the FCC regarding TikTok. It isn't just economic protectionism - it's national security. I don't think a Chinese politician or military official should have Facebook or Instagram installed on their mobile phone, either.

germandiago 4y ago

100% agree with this.

acchow 4y ago

Obviously the FCC, being under the US government, does not care that your data is being collected by the US government

gambiting 4y ago

>>Everything they're accusing TikTok of - from data harvesting to the government having access to said data - is true for western companies as well and that should be the problem The thing is, yes Facebook and Google's data collection is horrendous, but TikTok it literally on another level. Quite a good explanation here: https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/comment/fmuko1m/ https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/comment/fmuk...

janekm 4y ago
Personally I feel this is as much a failing of of mobile OSs as anything else. As long as we have an environment where ad networks think it's desirable to collect this kind of information it's going to get collected, whether by TikTok or ad networks. Apple at least attempt to limit what data is accessible by apps, Google is less incentivized to do so. It's not much help to "ban TikTok" while the ad networks run wild. If we're going to be worried about China I doubt it'd be too much trouble for them to place a few engineers into ad networks and exfiltrate the data from there.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Maybe the governments should force mobile OS to provide absolute zero information about anything to apps. If the apps can't get anything they can't leak anything.
  - hulitu 4y ago
    The governments are the direct beneficiaries of this data collection either directly or indirectly.
    - gzer0 4y ago
      Exactly right. As can be seen via the purchases of large swaths of private location data by the Department of Homeland Security and other government entities, essentially side stepping US citizens’ 4th amendment rights [1]. [1] https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/new-records-detail-dhs-purchase-and-use-of-vast-quantities-of-cell-phone-location-data https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/new-records-det...

Cthulhu_ 4y ago

That's what the GDPR was designed for, it doesn't solve it but it helps mitigate the problem for individuals.

daptaq 4y ago

I am probably being naive, but I'd like to see the banning of TikTok as a precedence case for the banning of other abusive networks in the future, whatever country they may operate from.

cudgy 4y ago
Wouldn’t that be great? Unfortunately, unless it benefits the critical stakeholders (eg military complex and corporate elite), actions like this will be discriminatory, selective and rare.

lapser 4y ago

FWIW, and this in no way defending western companies and governments, according to research, TikTok collects vastly more data that the worst western culprit - Facebook. Still, my guess is that additional data TikTok collects is probably not that important for the likes of FB and western governments, so perhaps it's a moot point.

NoboruWataya 4y ago

This isn't about TikTok posing a security risk to the consumer. It's about TikTok posing a security risk to the state. Of course the FCC, which is effectively an arm of the US government, is not going to be as concerned about corporations handing your data over to the US government.

yieldcrv 4y ago
many of us would prefer they say it that way, then

bamboozled 4y ago

> Everything they're accusing TikTok of - from data harvesting to the government having access to said data - is true for western companies as well and that should be the problem. Not the fact that the data is now in the hands of the Chinese but that the data is being collected at all provided to the government. Yes western governments are totally full of shit too, the proof of this is that Julian Assange is still being crucified for leaking information, for being a whistle blower. We're all so trained to thinking the Government is ok now that it's really hard to know what to do about it.

FreqSep 4y ago
> Yes western governments are totally full of shit too, the proof of this is that Julian Assange is still being crucified for leaking information, for being a whistle blower. That’s just not true. Many leakers and whistle blowers aren’t prosecuted every year. Julian Assange is a pretty transparent Russian asset and has been for a number of years. There’s a reason he never leaks anything that is negative of Putin. Meanwhile if it’s anti-American he leaks it in full without taking any standard journalist precautions. Of course he can pull the “I’m just a journalist bro” card, but the act is over and his time is up.
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  > Meanwhile if it’s anti-American he leaks it in full without taking any standard journalist precautions. If it's true, what does saying it's anti-American mean? Would you rather be in the dark about shady shit your government is doing? It's entirely possible that he just has better access to US sources than Russian ones.
  - FreqSep 4y ago
    > If it's true, what does saying it's anti-American mean? Would you rather be in the dark about shady shit your government is doing? Sure, as long as it’s accompanied by safe journalist practices (which it isn’t) and also calls out the shady shit of other, opposed, countries (which (which it doesn’t). > It’s entirely possible that he just has better access to US sources than Russian ones. That’s fine and possible, but even if that wasn’t the case - and he had access to Russian leaks but didn’t leak them - this is still exactly what he would say. And it’s possible both are true - that he’s simply releasing what is given to him, and the Russian state saw this and took the opportunity to feed him information as a result. At that point, after he has continually irresponsibly released covert information from a hostile state, how is he any different in practice than an intentional hostile actor?

cloutchaser 4y ago

Underlying your point there is an assumption that Chinese government = American government in it's misuse of data etc. I don't think this is true. And I've run a privacy advocate organisation and I'm a complete Snowden fanboy. But if I had to choose between giving my data to the CCP or the American government, the choice is easy. Even though a lot of data collection was done without warrants in the USA, there's been a lot of blowback, and there is still changing presidents/executive, changing representatives, and rule of law (not perfect, but still there). On the other side you have a CCP rolling out social scoring, running concentration camps, etc etc. It's just not the same. Let's not pretend it is somehow equivalent.

dvngnt_ 4y ago
China can't do anything that the US government cant already do. I'd rather China have my data as they can't touch me
AlexandrB 4y ago
> Even though a lot of data collection was done without warrants in the USA, there's been a lot of blowback... Was there? Who went to jail for it? Did anyone even get fired? James Clapper lied to Congress[1] about data collection, the only reason we even know is a leaker who can never return to the US for his "crimes". Meanwhile Clapper served out the rest of Obama's presidency and now has a cushy job at CNN[2]. If this "blowback", accountability is dead. [1] https://www.techdirt.com/2013/07/02/james-clapper-admits-he-lied-to-congress-even-his-excuse-is-misleading/ https://www.techdirt.com/2013/07/02/james-clapper-admits-he-... [2] https://dailycaller.com/2019/08/23/cnn-msnbc-15-spooks-mccabe/ https://dailycaller.com/2019/08/23/cnn-msnbc-15-spooks-mccab...

guyomes 4y ago

> Make the collection itself illegal, give users control about their data Here is another idea that could give users control about their data, and that could be more easily accepted by governments and companies. All the data of user X living in country Y should be stored on a server handled by country Y. Moreover, add the following features: - User X should be able to see all the people and companies that have access to his or her data. - Country Y could put some tax on each request, that should cover at least the costs for maintening the servers. This would give users more control about their data, and this would give countries more compensation on the monetizable data coming from its land. The compensation would be a motivation for the governments to implement and maintain these servers. Moreover, as opposed to a full ban on data collection, this approach might be accepted by companies since they would still be able to work with users data: just now they would need to pay for them and also they would need to let users know exactly who they sell the data to. In particular, if they sell the data to agressive ads companies, this would be known by the users and this could decrease their reputation. From a technical point of view it seems doable and a service with similar features is already implemented in Estonia for example [1]. [1]: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12553-017-0195-1 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12553-017-0195-1

ComodoHacker 4y ago

In other news, Russian government is going to enact a law[0] that would require businesses to provide collected personal data to the government on demand. Not anonymized and without personal consent. The presumption is a single governmental agency would anonymize it, properly store, protect and provide anonymized datasets to other agencies and businesses to develop on. This is already being called 'data nationalization'. 0. https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/5458430 https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/5458430 (Russian)

yorwba 4y ago

> the annoying part is that the same rules don't get applied across the board The same rules mostly do get applied across the board, which is why this story is about some guy writing a letter to private companies asking them to please find TikTok in breach of those companies' terms of service. He doesn't actually have sweeping powers of censorship that would allow him to just ban them on a whim, so he does the next best thing and raises his political profile so he might get considered for a more important job the next time his political party is in power. I think it's unlikely that Apple or Google will find TikTok to be in breach of their terms, and even less likely that Americans will be completely banned from accessing TikTok.

RandomLensman 4y ago

That might be a reason to generally block more data collection, but not to allow the Chinese government to continue to collect data - unless the argument is that collection is kind of "indivisible", i.e., as soon as anyone collects anything everything is "lost".

t0suj4 4y ago

Maybe you should look up civil-military fusion in China

mihaic 4y ago

I'm completely against this surveilance capitalism that's pursued by big tech, but asking the US gov to use the same rules "for everyone" seems naive and bad for the world economy. All countries have primarily a duty to their citizens, and only then to foreign entities. Even though there are plenty of points of improvement the US can make here, accepting that at least some discrimination against external citizens or companies should happen seems to be an axiom of governmental organization. I'm European btw and have a US-incorporated start-up.

__alexs 4y ago
> All countries have primarily a duty to their citizens, and only then to foreign entities. There is no innate duty of a state to anyone, it's a function of the policies of the people we elect. In many peoples view laws should apply equally regardless of where you are from.
- mihaic 4y ago
  If laws apply equally even to foreigners, then what's the purpose of the concept of citizenship? All people I know will treat their childred differently than random children on the playground, I'd imagine some analogy to this situation is not entirely lost on anyone.

LatteLazy 4y ago

Plus the chinese government has zero interest in 99% of westerners. Your local national government are far more likely to misuse that data...

whywhywhywhy 4y ago

I don't think its about data at all, I think it's that they're scared China has control of a system they can feed whatever narrative they want on an individual level and whole parts of society in the west are hopelessly addicted to it. From the data listed, it's a lot but personally with the current state of mobile os computing none of this seems all that out of the ordinary, it's just what is the sad state of those platforms. This is why I think the data is being used as an excuse.

SubiculumCode 4y ago
THe app does seem to push agendas sometimes, although its just probably the algo. You spend a little extra time on one type of content, and boom that's now a big portion of what you'll see...but I could totally see that the feed could be used to bend minds towards or away from certain ideas through a subtle type of propaganda.

fareesh 4y ago

Purely in theory: Eligible US Voters can elect a new US Government at various branches and change what US companies do with data through regulations/legislation. Even that theoretical route is not possible when it comes to a foreign company. Therefore the FCC guy (who is theoretically beholden to US citizens, or wanting to be perceived that way, or wanting to do so for his buddies at Western tech companies) is making the recommendation.

bottled_poe 4y ago

No. This is too simplistic. All systems of government are not equal. It’s disingenuous to claim otherwise.

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

Data collection is passive. TikTok, for all intents and purposes, is run by the Chinese communist government. Facebook has already shown that they can alter moods: https://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/06/28/326453204/facebook-scientists-alter-newsfeeds-find-emotions-are-affected-by-it https://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/06/28/326453204/fa... It's a numbers game. They have ~80,000,000 Americans tuned in. They can turn knobs when they need to alter US public opinion. A subtle shift of 80,000,000 people is big. Many people also get their news from TikTok: > TikTok, on the other hand, has seen a slight uptick in the portion of users who say they regularly get news on the site, rising from 22% to 29% in this period. https://www.pewresearch.org/journalism/2021/09/20/news-consumption-across-social-media-in-2021/ https://www.pewresearch.org/journalism/2021/09/20/news-consu...

kibwen 4y ago

Hear hear. We don't need selective takedowns of foreign intelligence assets for the sake of scoring political brownie points, we need strong privacy laws that apply to every company, including domestic ones. Unfortunately, half of the users on this forum don't want to hear this because their paycheck depends on being complicit in the gross violation of individual privacy.

entirelylin 4y ago
this

anony999 4y ago

I think things will move in the right direction. Next we should see Europe ban meta apps in Europe. Let's own our data again. Make the apps store data locally only.

duxup 4y ago

Personally I have no problem with generally addressing privacy…. AND taking special note when significantly less free nations are involved. Less free nations are worthy of special attention.

mrjin 4y ago

I don't think it really has anything to do with whatever FCC claims.

tablespoon 4y ago

> The problem should be that the data is collected and provided to the government whenever they want - not that it's not the Chinese government. We had this discussion after the Snowden leaks and nothing changed whatsoever. Back then it was the US government and the US gov had the chance to change the rules so this could not happen. Now they're up in arms because other governments do the exact same thing. It's really annoying. The differentiator here is national security, which raises an entirely different set of issues than the typical data collection and user privacy ones. It's like the difference between sharing your bank password with your wife vs. some dude you aren't very friendly with who has a history of wire fraud. "Treat everyone the same" is not a workable policy.

thematrixturtle 4y ago
That's... not a great analogy. I trust my wife a lot more than I trust Mark Zuckerberg (or Xi Jinping).
- TrispusAttucks 4y ago
  Yes but the United States government trusts Mark Zuckerberg more than Xi Jinping.
  - bjelkeman-again 4y ago
    Isn’t it that they can get access to all of Facebooks data on request, but not so with TikTok? I doubt trust comes into it.
  - cronix 4y ago
    Of course they do - they work together. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zqEvQKO5_gM https://www.youtube.com/shorts/zqEvQKO5_gM
- sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
- lazide 4y ago

draw_down 4y ago

srcreigh 4y ago

Of course they don't get applied across the board. As much as TikTok is a US national security risk, Google/Meta massively gathering data about citizens of other countries is a US national security asset. The problem with privacy law is that some foreign powers won't abide by the laws. It's not unlike violence- a country can try to make a global law saying "Nobody is allowed to have a military", but if they actually get rid of their military, they will just get taken over by a different country which does have a military.

DrScientist 4y ago
> Google/Meta massively gathering data about citizens of other countries is a national security asset. Depends which nation you are in right? The world isn't split into two: US or China.
- simonsarris 4y ago
  National security generally depends on which nation you are in or allied with, yes. I wonder if, for instance, Google an Meta are banned in China.
- srcreigh 4y ago
  Updated my comment. I'm Canadian. I'm sure in some ways US national security assets benefit certain other countries too, but I'm not sure specifically what that might be.
thematrixturtle 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_arme... has 21 entries, including Iceland, Panama and Costa Rica.

lazide 4y ago

As far as the gov’t is concerned, when it’s then doing it, it’s ‘for our own good’. when it’s another gov’t doing it, it’s a national security risk. Which shouldn’t be too big of a surprise I guess, especially since ‘national security risk’ almost always means ‘threat to gov’t security in practice’. That won’t change unless there is some kind of disaster that makes it untenable. I mean, just look at Nuclear proliferation for a really clear example.

encoderer 4y ago

China is owned by a murderous, oppressive, genocidal regime. There is no equivalence with western governments.

giantg2 4y ago

"but don't argue that the practice suddenly becomes problematic when others do it." That's a matter of perspective. From the US perspective, it's much more problematic for an adversary to have information about their personnel.

chaostheory 4y ago

The difference is that we’ll probably be in a Cold War with China soon.

classified 4y ago

Closing the barn door after the horses have bolted is too little too late. Everyone has these capabilities now. And the FCC is not neutral, of course it makes a difference to them whether domestic agencies get their hands on the data or foreign ones.

snarf21 4y ago

Exactly right. The don't want anyone doing what they are busy doing. The nerve of some countries!!! We've away some much privacy just for the lols. We need laws and penalties that give us back our freedom. Unfortunately, given politicians continual demand for back doors that will "only be used legally with a warrant", I see little hope that things will change.

seventytwo 4y ago

You’re trying to apply kindergarten-level ideas of fairness to a technological Cold War. In theory, you’re right - it would be great if everyone could just get along and be nice! But, well… It’s similar to the paradox of intolerance… the paradox of force. Should we live by the rules of fairness while others don’t? Should we expose ourselves to the same risks that others expose themselves just out of fairness?

nimbius 4y ago

the fact that the rhetoric and wardrumming has not abated seems to indicate FAANG players are facing a no-win situation when it comes to competition. The fact that Facebook and Youtube shorts are near-nightly parity scrapes of Tiktok content and they still cant manage to staunch the loss of viewers is a pretty damning indictment of the leadership at these groups. Huawei went through basically the same thing when western chip companies and telcos were beat to market by nearly a year for 5G. Grinding the red scare axe to an audience of bought and paid for octogenarians is still a pretty good grift it seems.

glenstein 4y ago

>The problem should be that the data is collected and provided to the government whenever they want - not that it's not the Chinese government. I disagree, because this is a "both things can be true" situation. It's true that data collection is a problem inherently and it's true that China's unprecedented scale of use and abuse of data escalates the urgency of Tiktok's case in particular. I also think as a practical matter, "we should apply this to all apps" has the functional effect of being a poison pill ensuring nothing gets done. I think we should accept imperfect forward iterations to improve security over poison pills.

sensanaty 4y ago

As someone who despises companies like Google, Facebook etc, I can easily and confidently say if my choice was between them harvesting all the data about me that exists in the world and TikTok (or anything else that's China-related in any way, shape or form) doing the same, I'll pick the former 11 out of 10 times.