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> Isn't it deterministic and calculable? The classical version is deterministic, but "deterministic" does not necessarily mean "calculable". There are plenty o

by pdonis 4y ago

> Isn't it deterministic and calculable? The classical version is deterministic, but "deterministic" does not necessarily mean "calculable". There are plenty of deterministic problems that are not calculable (at least not in any reasonable time frame, where "reasonable" means "not of a much greater order of magnitude than the age of the universe") because they are so sensitive to precise conditions that miniscule differences quickly become unmanageably huge. And since we can never measure a system's state to exact precision, nor can we calculate things to exact precision, our model of a system is always imprecise, and for many systems, "imprecise" means "not calculable" even though the underlying laws are deterministic. The quantum version is not even deterministic when measurements are involved.

adastra22 4y ago
There are interpretations of quantum mechanics in which it is deterministic as well (google search term: block universe).
- pdonis 4y ago
  Yes, there are (the many worlds interpretation and the Bohmian "pilot wave" interpretation are the two that come immediately to mind). I don't see what that has to do with "block universe", however, since that is an interpretation of relativity, not quantum mechanics.
  - adastra22 4y ago
    We must be talking about different things. Block universe is the theory that the universe is fixed in advance (deterministic) as a 4 dimensional “block” (more dimensions to include many worlds, I suppose?) and we’re just exploring one probabilistic trace through it.
    - pdonis 4y ago
      Block universe, as a theory, is based on classical (non-quantum) relativity, and its model of 4-dimensional spacetime. It is not based on QM. Non-relativistic QM does not even use spacetime. Relativistic QM, aka quantum field theory, does use it, but is not a deterministic model and does not treat spacetime as fixed in the sense of all events within it being determined in advance. > we’re just exploring one probabilistic trace through it There is no such thing as a "probabilistic trace" through a deterministic 4-dimensional spacetime in which all events are fixed in advance.
    - pdonis 4y ago
      > more dimensions to include many worlds, I suppose? There is no spacetime model of many worlds at all, as far as I know. Many worlds as an interpretation of QM is based on non-relativistic QM. The "space" in which quantum states "live" is not spacetime but Hilbert space. "Many worlds" is really a misnomer in the sense that there is only one quantum state in Hilbert space. But quantum states in Hilbert space can have relationships to ordinary space that are not at all like those in classical physics: for example, a single quantum state can describe a system containing multiple entangled particles that are spatially separated; in such a state no particle by itself has any definite state at all (which is impossible in classical physics). That is true regardless of which QM interpretation you adopt.
prox 4y ago
So how does the universe itself “calculates” things in real time. How do so many operation “render” on the quantum/classical scale. Forces adapt in real time?
- fartsucker69 4y ago
  the universe doesn't calculate anything. it just happens. this is also why I think that artificial consciousness (big difference to intelligence) is a whole lot harder than many people think. a stack of papers where someone has manually written the neural net (or whatever technology) computation and results is unlikely to have a subjective experience. because there is an indirection between a simulation and the real world. the simulation is a computation. the real world happens.
  - Baloo 4y ago
    Perhaps consciousness is not one single 'flavour', but comes in lots of different varieties?
  - zelphirkalt 4y ago
    Could we devise a process, which makes things "just happen", so that consciousness results? I think that is the question. I don't see, why it should be impossible to do so.
    - prox 4y ago
      What you are saying aligns a lot with the “emergent consciousness” line of thinking. It means that consciousness appears out of the complexity of our wiring.
- RedNifre 4y ago
  It's not necessarily real time, you only experience time at the same rate, no matter how fast the universe is calculating in meta time. Or maybe time is a 4th spacial dimension, then the universe would be a finished, static thing, no more calculations needed (you would experience time in the sense that characters in a movie experience time, even though the film roll already contains all the frames)

by pdonis 4y ago

adastra22 4y ago

There are interpretations of quantum mechanics in which it is deterministic as well (google search term: block universe).

pdonis 4y ago
Yes, there are (the many worlds interpretation and the Bohmian "pilot wave" interpretation are the two that come immediately to mind). I don't see what that has to do with "block universe", however, since that is an interpretation of relativity, not quantum mechanics.
- adastra22 4y ago
  We must be talking about different things. Block universe is the theory that the universe is fixed in advance (deterministic) as a 4 dimensional “block” (more dimensions to include many worlds, I suppose?) and we’re just exploring one probabilistic trace through it.
  - pdonis 4y ago
    Block universe, as a theory, is based on classical (non-quantum) relativity, and its model of 4-dimensional spacetime. It is not based on QM. Non-relativistic QM does not even use spacetime. Relativistic QM, aka quantum field theory, does use it, but is not a deterministic model and does not treat spacetime as fixed in the sense of all events within it being determined in advance. > we’re just exploring one probabilistic trace through it There is no such thing as a "probabilistic trace" through a deterministic 4-dimensional spacetime in which all events are fixed in advance.
  - pdonis 4y ago
    > more dimensions to include many worlds, I suppose? There is no spacetime model of many worlds at all, as far as I know. Many worlds as an interpretation of QM is based on non-relativistic QM. The "space" in which quantum states "live" is not spacetime but Hilbert space. "Many worlds" is really a misnomer in the sense that there is only one quantum state in Hilbert space. But quantum states in Hilbert space can have relationships to ordinary space that are not at all like those in classical physics: for example, a single quantum state can describe a system containing multiple entangled particles that are spatially separated; in such a state no particle by itself has any definite state at all (which is impossible in classical physics). That is true regardless of which QM interpretation you adopt.

prox 4y ago

So how does the universe itself “calculates” things in real time. How do so many operation “render” on the quantum/classical scale. Forces adapt in real time?

fartsucker69 4y ago
the universe doesn't calculate anything. it just happens. this is also why I think that artificial consciousness (big difference to intelligence) is a whole lot harder than many people think. a stack of papers where someone has manually written the neural net (or whatever technology) computation and results is unlikely to have a subjective experience. because there is an indirection between a simulation and the real world. the simulation is a computation. the real world happens.
- Baloo 4y ago
  Perhaps consciousness is not one single 'flavour', but comes in lots of different varieties?
- zelphirkalt 4y ago
  Could we devise a process, which makes things "just happen", so that consciousness results? I think that is the question. I don't see, why it should be impossible to do so.
  - prox 4y ago
    What you are saying aligns a lot with the “emergent consciousness” line of thinking. It means that consciousness appears out of the complexity of our wiring.
RedNifre 4y ago
It's not necessarily real time, you only experience time at the same rate, no matter how fast the universe is calculating in meta time. Or maybe time is a 4th spacial dimension, then the universe would be a finished, static thing, no more calculations needed (you would experience time in the sense that characters in a movie experience time, even though the film roll already contains all the frames)