6 ms·

hmm facilitating war, even if it means defence just doesn't sit quite right with me. shame we live in a world where this is even a thing

daenz 4y ago
>even if it means defence Can you elaborate on why you feel uncomfortable with the idea of defense? Related[0] 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_operations_other_than_war_(US)#Types https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_operations_other_than...
- 12ian34 4y ago
  I wonder, of the many hundreds of billions of dollars the US spends on defense every year, how much goes to those military operations to which you linked.
- __MatrixMan__ 4y ago
  As a US citizen in a place that's more or less evenly red/blue split, and given the trajectory of US politics lately, I'm worried that if I help improve US military technology, it will later be used against me or my neighbors.
- kelnos 4y ago
  Even if the current posture for whatever nation is predominately that of defense, you have no idea what is going to happen in the next few years geopolitically, or even just when your country has new leadership. The defensive capabilities you help build today could easily be used for offense tomorrow.
busterarm 4y ago
War happens when one of two nations assumes that they are more capable of winning than another. If you stop spending in the US and assume that Russia and China will sit idly by without invading our allies, you are living in a land of fantasy.
- 12ian34 4y ago
  It's definitely a land of fantasy today, I agree but one can always hope that maybe one day instead of killing each other we'd learn to live together and work together. Imagine how much more productive we'd be. To be honest I nearly didn't post this message because it's a bit off topic and definitely divisive. I definitely support all the brave people fighting for me to be safe because I sure as hell wouldn't feel comfortable killing someone else myself to protect my "country".
  - cercatrova 4y ago
    Looking at human history, that will never happen. As long as there is scarcity in the world, and as long as sovereign states exist, geopolitics and thus the looming threat of war will always exist.
    - 12ian34 4y ago
      Perhaps with that attitude. There's a lot of amazing things humans have accomplished that were once thought impossible. We are likely very, very early on in the anthropocene. Thousands of years from now I'm optimistic that the world will be a better place and that they'll look back on us as barbaric environment destroyers.
      - LBJsPNS 4y ago
        Either that, or the one-eyed cannibal mutants will keep our descendants in fattening pens. Kumbaya, m-fer.
        12ian34 4y ago
        judging by recent political events in the UK and the US combined with the level of obesity and overconsumption in these nations I'd say we're already there
    - gpm 4y ago
      I don't buy that history is a good guide for the future here. All but the most recent history was in an era where we couldn't talk to eachother without physically travelling for weeks/months. The nature of diplomacy, politics, countries, and war have all fundamentally changed. The world has not "settled into" a new steady-state since those changes have been made (partially because significant changes are still happening). You could reasonably extrapolate from bodies like the EU and think there is a chance we end up with a single global order that doesn't include war in the future. That said I think you can look at the current and say with some confidence that there are at least a few wars left - there are too many current armed conflicts, and too many threats of armed conflict, to seriously believe otherwise.
DoreenMichele 4y ago
This is a hippie ideology that seems to only be held by people who live in secure circumstances that they take for granted and are oblivious to what it costs other people to create. Hippies were the children of WW2 vets and were an entire generation who seemingly failed to understand that the world they lived in was forged at great personal cost by the previous generation and the anvil upon which it was forged was The Great Depression and WW2. The Hippie antiwar stance was like the collective voice of the subconscious of the previous generation that was deeply scarred by WW2 and wanted to just fight no more forever.
- 12ian34 4y ago
  My country was actually raped, pillaged and involuntarily ruled by the British for a very long time. I am no child of a WW2 vet. There is a world outside of the United States of America. Please take your derogatory chat elsewhere. In another comment in this thread I pay respect to those that have fought in wars. You are reading too much (or perhaps too little) into my original comment and combining that with small minded pessimism.
  - DoreenMichele 4y ago
    I wasn't suggesting you were the child of a WW2 vet. Just disagreeing with the idea posited and doing my best to explain my reasons why, which is always a risky exercise on the internet. Have a good day.
    - 12ian34 4y ago
      Perhaps my reply was a bit too defensive - I’ll use the excuse that it’s uncharacteristically hot where I am and I can’t sleep. I do feel like you were being derogatory in your labelling of this as a Hippie ideology which I still think isn’t quite fair since you go on to generalise this negatively. I’m definitely aware that there have been many sacrifices made by older generations for the younger generations to live better lives - yet I do think that we can all do better at trying to build a world where we wouldn’t need as much conflict to make the world a better place for future generations. Have a good day, too, stranger.
exolymph 4y ago
We're gonna have a global hegemon, that's just how 21st-century geopolitics is, and I'd certainly rather it be USA than PRC.
- 12ian34 4y ago
  Lesser of two evils I guess.
dls2016 4y ago
Every institution with a big enough research budget gives SBIR grants. I got money from NASA last year (project didn’t work out, unfortunately).
lelanthran 4y ago
> hmm facilitating war, even if it means defence just doesn't sit quite right with me. shame we live in a world where this is even a thing I don't know what this is supposed to even mean. Do you mean "it's a shame to live in a world where defence is necessary" or "it's a shame to live in a world where aggressors face defence"?
mschuster91 4y ago
Si vis pacem, para bellum. We live in dangerous times, with multiple situations that can devolve into all-out wars very VERY quickly, and as Ukraine has shown it is extremely wise to prepare: - obviously, everyone with a border to Russia has to fear invading orcs. Moldavia and the Baltic nations are at particular threat, given the speeches by Russian officials and think-tank representatives that suggest Russia wants to build back its Russian Empire glory days. Additionally, everyone is at threat from Russian cyber actors and Russian-backed separatist and far-right organizations. - China has not only the Taiwan question, but also ongoing border skirmishes with India and resource-grabbing operations in the entire Pacific - hell they have been caught illegally fishing in waters as far away as Africa [1]. The risk of Chinese cyber attacks is just as high as Russia, although China seems to focus more on industrial espionage for now. - The entire situation around Israel and Iran is highly volatile. Israel routinely strikes against targets both in Iran and Syria, and at least for the latter Putin has pretty much clarified that they won't keep looking away for much longer. And everyone in the region is worried about Iran, to the tune that it's likely that the idea of a "middle Eastern NATO" is already reality in secret. - Almost all of Africa is under threat from internal conflict, both ongoing and future. Dictatorships of various kinds, border fights, civil wars, religious wars - name your idea of conflict cause and you will find it in Africa somewhere. Add to that economic insecurity and pressure from the effects of climate change, and the entire continent is an explosion just waiting to happen. The US doesn't have to take care much, but Europe will have to deal with a lot of refugees sooner or later (and to make it worse, we still haven't decided on how to deal with refugees in a way that doesn't threaten to destabilize our interior politics and complies with the ideals laid down in various international treaties). - Half of South America is a similar bomb waiting to explode. Failed states (Venezuela), narco states (Mexico), states collapsing to gang warfare (Haiti), and the open possibility that it might need world-wide military intervention to stop Brazil from burning down the Amazon rainforest. [1] https://www.spiegel.de/ausland/gambia-chinas-trawler-fischen-afrikas-kuesten-leer-fuer-unseren-lachs-aus-norwegen-a-8e9559d1-13ca-453a-a6e8-51eea97e49ab https://www.spiegel.de/ausland/gambia-chinas-trawler-fischen...
- 12ian34 4y ago
  Yeah agreed. It's a shame though isn't it. Imagine a world where hundreds of billions of US defense spending could go into public services like free healthcare.
entirelylin 4y ago
Everywhere you look around the world right now there is a money making machine. Imo more and more companies start choosing non ethical ways to earn currency. There hasn't been many sacred things in world nor lately nor ever..

daenz 4y ago

>even if it means defence Can you elaborate on why you feel uncomfortable with the idea of defense? Related[0] 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_operations_other_than_war_(US)#Types https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_operations_other_than...

12ian34 4y ago
I wonder, of the many hundreds of billions of dollars the US spends on defense every year, how much goes to those military operations to which you linked.
__MatrixMan__ 4y ago
As a US citizen in a place that's more or less evenly red/blue split, and given the trajectory of US politics lately, I'm worried that if I help improve US military technology, it will later be used against me or my neighbors.
kelnos 4y ago
Even if the current posture for whatever nation is predominately that of defense, you have no idea what is going to happen in the next few years geopolitically, or even just when your country has new leadership. The defensive capabilities you help build today could easily be used for offense tomorrow.

busterarm 4y ago

War happens when one of two nations assumes that they are more capable of winning than another. If you stop spending in the US and assume that Russia and China will sit idly by without invading our allies, you are living in a land of fantasy.

12ian34 4y ago
It's definitely a land of fantasy today, I agree but one can always hope that maybe one day instead of killing each other we'd learn to live together and work together. Imagine how much more productive we'd be. To be honest I nearly didn't post this message because it's a bit off topic and definitely divisive. I definitely support all the brave people fighting for me to be safe because I sure as hell wouldn't feel comfortable killing someone else myself to protect my "country".
- cercatrova 4y ago
  Looking at human history, that will never happen. As long as there is scarcity in the world, and as long as sovereign states exist, geopolitics and thus the looming threat of war will always exist.
  - 12ian34 4y ago
    Perhaps with that attitude. There's a lot of amazing things humans have accomplished that were once thought impossible. We are likely very, very early on in the anthropocene. Thousands of years from now I'm optimistic that the world will be a better place and that they'll look back on us as barbaric environment destroyers.
    - LBJsPNS 4y ago
      Either that, or the one-eyed cannibal mutants will keep our descendants in fattening pens. Kumbaya, m-fer.
      - 12ian34 4y ago
        judging by recent political events in the UK and the US combined with the level of obesity and overconsumption in these nations I'd say we're already there
  - gpm 4y ago
    I don't buy that history is a good guide for the future here. All but the most recent history was in an era where we couldn't talk to eachother without physically travelling for weeks/months. The nature of diplomacy, politics, countries, and war have all fundamentally changed. The world has not "settled into" a new steady-state since those changes have been made (partially because significant changes are still happening). You could reasonably extrapolate from bodies like the EU and think there is a chance we end up with a single global order that doesn't include war in the future. That said I think you can look at the current and say with some confidence that there are at least a few wars left - there are too many current armed conflicts, and too many threats of armed conflict, to seriously believe otherwise.

DoreenMichele 4y ago

This is a hippie ideology that seems to only be held by people who live in secure circumstances that they take for granted and are oblivious to what it costs other people to create. Hippies were the children of WW2 vets and were an entire generation who seemingly failed to understand that the world they lived in was forged at great personal cost by the previous generation and the anvil upon which it was forged was The Great Depression and WW2. The Hippie antiwar stance was like the collective voice of the subconscious of the previous generation that was deeply scarred by WW2 and wanted to just fight no more forever.

12ian34 4y ago
My country was actually raped, pillaged and involuntarily ruled by the British for a very long time. I am no child of a WW2 vet. There is a world outside of the United States of America. Please take your derogatory chat elsewhere. In another comment in this thread I pay respect to those that have fought in wars. You are reading too much (or perhaps too little) into my original comment and combining that with small minded pessimism.
- DoreenMichele 4y ago
  I wasn't suggesting you were the child of a WW2 vet. Just disagreeing with the idea posited and doing my best to explain my reasons why, which is always a risky exercise on the internet. Have a good day.
  - 12ian34 4y ago
    Perhaps my reply was a bit too defensive - I’ll use the excuse that it’s uncharacteristically hot where I am and I can’t sleep. I do feel like you were being derogatory in your labelling of this as a Hippie ideology which I still think isn’t quite fair since you go on to generalise this negatively. I’m definitely aware that there have been many sacrifices made by older generations for the younger generations to live better lives - yet I do think that we can all do better at trying to build a world where we wouldn’t need as much conflict to make the world a better place for future generations. Have a good day, too, stranger.

exolymph 4y ago

We're gonna have a global hegemon, that's just how 21st-century geopolitics is, and I'd certainly rather it be USA than PRC.

12ian34 4y ago
Lesser of two evils I guess.

dls2016 4y ago

Every institution with a big enough research budget gives SBIR grants. I got money from NASA last year (project didn’t work out, unfortunately).

lelanthran 4y ago

> hmm facilitating war, even if it means defence just doesn't sit quite right with me. shame we live in a world where this is even a thing I don't know what this is supposed to even mean. Do you mean "it's a shame to live in a world where defence is necessary" or "it's a shame to live in a world where aggressors face defence"?

mschuster91 4y ago

Si vis pacem, para bellum. We live in dangerous times, with multiple situations that can devolve into all-out wars very VERY quickly, and as Ukraine has shown it is extremely wise to prepare: - obviously, everyone with a border to Russia has to fear invading orcs. Moldavia and the Baltic nations are at particular threat, given the speeches by Russian officials and think-tank representatives that suggest Russia wants to build back its Russian Empire glory days. Additionally, everyone is at threat from Russian cyber actors and Russian-backed separatist and far-right organizations. - China has not only the Taiwan question, but also ongoing border skirmishes with India and resource-grabbing operations in the entire Pacific - hell they have been caught illegally fishing in waters as far away as Africa [1]. The risk of Chinese cyber attacks is just as high as Russia, although China seems to focus more on industrial espionage for now. - The entire situation around Israel and Iran is highly volatile. Israel routinely strikes against targets both in Iran and Syria, and at least for the latter Putin has pretty much clarified that they won't keep looking away for much longer. And everyone in the region is worried about Iran, to the tune that it's likely that the idea of a "middle Eastern NATO" is already reality in secret. - Almost all of Africa is under threat from internal conflict, both ongoing and future. Dictatorships of various kinds, border fights, civil wars, religious wars - name your idea of conflict cause and you will find it in Africa somewhere. Add to that economic insecurity and pressure from the effects of climate change, and the entire continent is an explosion just waiting to happen. The US doesn't have to take care much, but Europe will have to deal with a lot of refugees sooner or later (and to make it worse, we still haven't decided on how to deal with refugees in a way that doesn't threaten to destabilize our interior politics and complies with the ideals laid down in various international treaties). - Half of South America is a similar bomb waiting to explode. Failed states (Venezuela), narco states (Mexico), states collapsing to gang warfare (Haiti), and the open possibility that it might need world-wide military intervention to stop Brazil from burning down the Amazon rainforest. [1] https://www.spiegel.de/ausland/gambia-chinas-trawler-fischen-afrikas-kuesten-leer-fuer-unseren-lachs-aus-norwegen-a-8e9559d1-13ca-453a-a6e8-51eea97e49ab https://www.spiegel.de/ausland/gambia-chinas-trawler-fischen...

12ian34 4y ago
Yeah agreed. It's a shame though isn't it. Imagine a world where hundreds of billions of US defense spending could go into public services like free healthcare.

entirelylin 4y ago

Everywhere you look around the world right now there is a money making machine. Imo more and more companies start choosing non ethical ways to earn currency. There hasn't been many sacred things in world nor lately nor ever..