5 ms·

Is not growth inevitable? I hear criticisms of it but is it not what happens automatically when there is competition for resources? I can't really see what the

by mongol 4y ago

Is not growth inevitable? I hear criticisms of it but is it not what happens automatically when there is competition for resources? I can't really see what the alternative would be. I mean, ideally if you could just agree with everyone in the entire world that no one should strive for something better, we could stay where we are, but reaching such agreement seems impossible. And let's say instead we change direction to reshape society, to become more ecological, more sustainable etc. That will require innovation, labor, capital etc. That is also a kind of growth! Like a child stops growing in height at some point, but continues to evolve intellectually etc.

jstx1 4y ago
Now imagine that everyone's retirement is tied to the child's growth in height only and the people with most power and influence benefit the most from every additional inch of height.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
neojebfkekeej 4y ago
It’s not that growth is inherently bad. It’s that we’ve turned a blind eye to the costs incurred both on an individual level and a planetary level to sustain that growth.
- revscat 4y ago
  History is replete with fallen civilizations, lost civilizations, and civilizations we barely know exist. There are likely many who rose and fell and who we are wholly unaware of. So no, growth is not inevitable, especially if you turn the livable atmosphere unlivable.
jjoonathan 4y ago
> That is also a kind of growth! Yes, but not one that benefits from investment, which is how rich people get paid for being rich. Rich people want very, very, very much to be paid for being rich. Since a dollar is a vote, this concern completely dominates our political and cultural thought processes. The tricky part is that retirement funds use exactly the same mechanism, so those of us with retirement accounts have incentives to keep quiet. The wheels won't come off the cart to Ponzi town until a minority of people are net asset holders, but that's well on its way to happening. Exciting times!
- chii 4y ago
  > ... not one that benefits from investment, which is how rich people get paid for being rich. riches or wealth, is merely stored up work that could be expended, instead of consumed. They aren't being paid just for being rich - they are making decisions on how to expend that stored up work to produce _even more_ stored up work for the future. By making that decision wisely, they earn the rewards of the stored up work!
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - jjoonathan 4y ago
    That's the theory. It's different in practice. Ok, suppose a new frontier has opened up. Maybe it's geographic, maybe a gold rush, maybe a technological revolution -- but in any case, there are lots of opportunities to forego consumption today in order to create greater value tomorrow. Stuff has to be built! Investment has value. We should want to encourage it and reward it, because everybody wins. Great! So what's the problem? Well, what happens at the top of the growth sigmoid? The stuff has been built. Foregoing consumption today... just doesn't help in the way that it used to. Investment just doesn't have much value (gasp). Returns drop. In fact, they plummet, because now instead of having a lot of growth service a little capital you have a little growth service a lot of capital. Double whammy. Ok, markets contract, so what's the problem? There isn't one, if you let it happen -- but if you are a rich person, this is an existential threat. You can't get paid for being rich anymore. Unless... wealth is power, and power can be used to change the rules. So you change the rules. You invent other ways of getting payed for being rich. Because that's what you really care about. That's the fundamental reason why our economic narrative pretends that everything is exponential, not sigmoid: the dirty deeds happen at the top of the sigmoid.
    - chii 4y ago
      > You invent other ways of getting payed for being rich. so what's this other way that's been implied, but never actually explicitly explained? Lots of investors accept low returns now - that's _why_ prices are expensive. Unless you're talking about the corruption in countries like russia, where resources and power are usurped, rather than created.
gremlinsinc 4y ago
degrowth is a movement currently and a worthy one. Answer this question : How many common things around your house do you use weekly, monthly or maybe a few times per year? How many other houses on the block have the same things? How much waste went into allowing you the comfort of using that when you want. Would it be much less comfortable to have to "check it out" from a neighborhood tool-shed? What about instead of owning a 3d printer, the neighborhood tool-shed was a warehouse with bikes, tools, a maker space, cleaning supplies, perhaps even ATVs, and riding lawnmowers, etc. Sure you'd have to logically create 'centers' around town close enough to walk, or have a neighbor maybe deliver if you're elderly or something, but there's convenience in having more options if you don't have a specific tool and only need it once. You might need an HOA-type fee to pay people to take care of the equipment, etc. Now that you don't need your own tools, lawn mower, 3d printer, printer, atv, weed whacker, you find you could've done without even having a garage, maybe we can start building smaller homes that are cheaper to heat or cool and with less environmental impact. Nice to haves: - Some sort of share/rental thing maybe for the atv's, and boat/rv storage. - Commercial kitchens and space for community get together's, I grew up in the 80s and we knew our neighbors back then. I haven't known a neighbor since the 90s, unless it was from work, school, or a roommate back in college. It might be nice to have potlucks, or cooks from the neighborhood could show off their talents maybe with a tip-hat. Perhaps some people don't cook much at all, and just prepare quick dinners in the commercial kitchen space for their family, and decide they don't even need much in terms of appliances in their kitchen. My point is we've been conditioned to think we all need to own so much shit, when really we don't and there was a time when you needed something you'd borrow or trade with a neighbor.
- caramelcustard 4y ago
  So basically: instead of just having what you need, just, like, hope that your neighbour has what you need. Great plan, i also hope that the neighbours are going to always follow me (just in case i'm going to move elsewhere). "Sure you'd have to logically create 'centers' around town close enough to walk, or have a neighbor maybe deliver if you're elderly or something, but there's convenience in having more options if you don't have a specific tool and only need it once." or just have a garage or a shed for tools. "Now that you don't need your own tools, lawn mower, 3d printer, printer, atv, weed whacker, you find you could've done without even having a garage, maybe we can start building smaller homes that are cheaper to heat or cool and with less environmental impact." ah yes, the number one reason people get large homes: forget having family or simply enjoying spacious living conditions, i'm storing all of my tools around my house. "Some sort of share/rental thing maybe for the atv's, and boat/rv storage." Good luck proving that the ding on the ATVs fender was done by your neighbour and not you. "Commercial kitchens and space for community get together's, I grew up in the 80s and we knew our neighbors back then." Why can't you just invite your neighbours to your house? "... been conditioned to think we all need to own so much shit, when really we don't..." or perhaps some of us are conditioned to think that we don't need anything, that everything should be rented/lended by a neighbour and basically make your house into a shed because all you do is store tools anyways.
caramelcustard 4y ago
"...we change direction to reshape society, to become more ecological, more sustainable etc." This is literally what the criticized growth-focused system is doing: from recycling waste into new products to carbon-capture technology, sustainable polymers and much more, made and done with private equity.

by mongol 4y ago

jstx1 4y ago

Now imagine that everyone's retirement is tied to the child's growth in height only and the people with most power and influence benefit the most from every additional inch of height.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

neojebfkekeej 4y ago

It’s not that growth is inherently bad. It’s that we’ve turned a blind eye to the costs incurred both on an individual level and a planetary level to sustain that growth.

revscat 4y ago
History is replete with fallen civilizations, lost civilizations, and civilizations we barely know exist. There are likely many who rose and fell and who we are wholly unaware of. So no, growth is not inevitable, especially if you turn the livable atmosphere unlivable.

jjoonathan 4y ago

> That is also a kind of growth! Yes, but not one that benefits from investment, which is how rich people get paid for being rich. Rich people want very, very, very much to be paid for being rich. Since a dollar is a vote, this concern completely dominates our political and cultural thought processes. The tricky part is that retirement funds use exactly the same mechanism, so those of us with retirement accounts have incentives to keep quiet. The wheels won't come off the cart to Ponzi town until a minority of people are net asset holders, but that's well on its way to happening. Exciting times!

chii 4y ago
> ... not one that benefits from investment, which is how rich people get paid for being rich. riches or wealth, is merely stored up work that could be expended, instead of consumed. They aren't being paid just for being rich - they are making decisions on how to expend that stored up work to produce _even more_ stored up work for the future. By making that decision wisely, they earn the rewards of the stored up work!
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- jjoonathan 4y ago
  That's the theory. It's different in practice. Ok, suppose a new frontier has opened up. Maybe it's geographic, maybe a gold rush, maybe a technological revolution -- but in any case, there are lots of opportunities to forego consumption today in order to create greater value tomorrow. Stuff has to be built! Investment has value. We should want to encourage it and reward it, because everybody wins. Great! So what's the problem? Well, what happens at the top of the growth sigmoid? The stuff has been built. Foregoing consumption today... just doesn't help in the way that it used to. Investment just doesn't have much value (gasp). Returns drop. In fact, they plummet, because now instead of having a lot of growth service a little capital you have a little growth service a lot of capital. Double whammy. Ok, markets contract, so what's the problem? There isn't one, if you let it happen -- but if you are a rich person, this is an existential threat. You can't get paid for being rich anymore. Unless... wealth is power, and power can be used to change the rules. So you change the rules. You invent other ways of getting payed for being rich. Because that's what you really care about. That's the fundamental reason why our economic narrative pretends that everything is exponential, not sigmoid: the dirty deeds happen at the top of the sigmoid.
  - chii 4y ago
    > You invent other ways of getting payed for being rich. so what's this other way that's been implied, but never actually explicitly explained? Lots of investors accept low returns now - that's _why_ prices are expensive. Unless you're talking about the corruption in countries like russia, where resources and power are usurped, rather than created.

gremlinsinc 4y ago

degrowth is a movement currently and a worthy one. Answer this question : How many common things around your house do you use weekly, monthly or maybe a few times per year? How many other houses on the block have the same things? How much waste went into allowing you the comfort of using that when you want. Would it be much less comfortable to have to "check it out" from a neighborhood tool-shed? What about instead of owning a 3d printer, the neighborhood tool-shed was a warehouse with bikes, tools, a maker space, cleaning supplies, perhaps even ATVs, and riding lawnmowers, etc. Sure you'd have to logically create 'centers' around town close enough to walk, or have a neighbor maybe deliver if you're elderly or something, but there's convenience in having more options if you don't have a specific tool and only need it once. You might need an HOA-type fee to pay people to take care of the equipment, etc. Now that you don't need your own tools, lawn mower, 3d printer, printer, atv, weed whacker, you find you could've done without even having a garage, maybe we can start building smaller homes that are cheaper to heat or cool and with less environmental impact. Nice to haves: - Some sort of share/rental thing maybe for the atv's, and boat/rv storage. - Commercial kitchens and space for community get together's, I grew up in the 80s and we knew our neighbors back then. I haven't known a neighbor since the 90s, unless it was from work, school, or a roommate back in college. It might be nice to have potlucks, or cooks from the neighborhood could show off their talents maybe with a tip-hat. Perhaps some people don't cook much at all, and just prepare quick dinners in the commercial kitchen space for their family, and decide they don't even need much in terms of appliances in their kitchen. My point is we've been conditioned to think we all need to own so much shit, when really we don't and there was a time when you needed something you'd borrow or trade with a neighbor.

caramelcustard 4y ago
So basically: instead of just having what you need, just, like, hope that your neighbour has what you need. Great plan, i also hope that the neighbours are going to always follow me (just in case i'm going to move elsewhere). "Sure you'd have to logically create 'centers' around town close enough to walk, or have a neighbor maybe deliver if you're elderly or something, but there's convenience in having more options if you don't have a specific tool and only need it once." or just have a garage or a shed for tools. "Now that you don't need your own tools, lawn mower, 3d printer, printer, atv, weed whacker, you find you could've done without even having a garage, maybe we can start building smaller homes that are cheaper to heat or cool and with less environmental impact." ah yes, the number one reason people get large homes: forget having family or simply enjoying spacious living conditions, i'm storing all of my tools around my house. "Some sort of share/rental thing maybe for the atv's, and boat/rv storage." Good luck proving that the ding on the ATVs fender was done by your neighbour and not you. "Commercial kitchens and space for community get together's, I grew up in the 80s and we knew our neighbors back then." Why can't you just invite your neighbours to your house? "... been conditioned to think we all need to own so much shit, when really we don't..." or perhaps some of us are conditioned to think that we don't need anything, that everything should be rented/lended by a neighbour and basically make your house into a shed because all you do is store tools anyways.

caramelcustard 4y ago

"...we change direction to reshape society, to become more ecological, more sustainable etc." This is literally what the criticized growth-focused system is doing: from recycling waste into new products to carbon-capture technology, sustainable polymers and much more, made and done with private equity.