5 ms·

Curious to hear the HN take on this. Some people I talked to seemed to think this is a small hill to die on. Am I just weird that I find this uncomfortable? The

Curious to hear the HN take on this. Some people I talked to seemed to think this is a small hill to die on. Am I just weird that I find this uncomfortable? The stated purpose is spam prevention, but CAPTCHA exists for that purpose. I'd be more than happy to fill out a CAPTCHA. I've been happily playing Minecraft for 12 years now, and I've gotten more than my money's worth out of that game. If my insistence on privacy means that I can't play it anymore, then perhaps that is a price I'm willing to pay. :(

nathanaldensr 4y ago
I've been playing Minecraft with my kids since very early on. It's now banned in my house. The heavy-handed approach from Microsoft, including essentially making the game unplayable after I already purchased it multiple times (four to be precise), is a bridge too far. I do not believe in "renting" games; if I purchase something, it's mine. If I don't take a stand somewhere then someday I will "own nothing," and that ain't happening. We'll proceed with other games like console emulators, Stardew Valley, Terraria, etc.
- cinntaile 4y ago
  Do you use Netflix or a similar service? If yes, what's the difference?
  - ziddoap 4y ago
    I don't think it is very difficult to understand the difference. In the Netflix scenario, you know that you are purchasing a subscription service that lets you access content owned/distributed/licensed by Netflix. They aren't advertising that you can own Stranger Things, for example. They advertise that you can watch Stranger Things on-demand. I don't know of anyone who has purchased a Netflix subscription and thought that they own copies of everything on Netflix. In the game scenario, you believe that you are purchasing the game. That's how they market it. The expectation is that once you've made that transaction, you now own that copy of that game to do with as you more or less please. Play it offline, run a local server, put it away and pick it up 10 years from now and still be able to play it, etc. It's increasingly apparent that in many cases, even when you buy something from a game store (MS, Sony, etc.) that you aren't actually purchasing the game, you're purchasing the rights to access it through a particular service. But that's not how the advertise it. And no, I don't think burying this fact behind a few thousand words of legalese is really addressing the issue at all. If you don't understand why that distinction might upset people, I don't know what to say.
    - daviddever23box 4y ago
      You can continue to play the game, up to a given version, provided that you do not upgrade the launcher during that period of time to a version that requires that you provide personal data. You are not entitled to subsequent updates or upgrades.
      - alpaca128 4y ago
        You are forced to update the launcher and game if you reinstall the OS or get a new computer, and most likely it'll just auto-update without asking. There is no way to download or archive old versions. > You are not entitled to subsequent updates or upgrades. Then those should be truly optional and the store page should visibly state this limitation while keeping the purchased version accessible.
        cwillu 4y ago
        Worth noting that when I purchased minecraft back in 2011, the store page did in fact (according to archive.org) say: “When you purchase Minecraft you do so as is, be it in the early stages of development or already fully released. Subsequent updates are only an added bonus and not a guarantee, as icing on a cake. Purchases during the development of the game are discounted and include the full game upon release.” and “When you purchase a game from us, you fill in your personal/company details. You agree that we store and use your information in our organization to complete the agreement towards you. You have the right, according to the law Personuppgiftslagen (PUL) in Sweden to know about the information registered about you. If it is wrong, insufficient or irrelevant you have the right to make sure that it gets corrected or removed.” But the rest of your comment stands.
      - daviddever23box 4y ago
        I keep copies of any downloadable installer I use for this very reason, as it's always possible that you'll wish later that you'd kept that n-1th version.
    - cinntaile 4y ago
      He claimed if he purchases something he owns it, so I was wondering if he had a Netflix account. Because then he clearly doesn't have a problem with just renting content after making a purchase, despite his claims. > Play it offline, run a local server, put it away and pick it up 10 years from now and still be able to play it, etc. While it's sad, this hasn't been true the last 10-15 years. They don't claim you own a game after you buy it, that would be false advertising. Hence why they could change his gaming experience in such a disruptive way. > If you don't understand why that distinction might upset people, I don't know what to say. I tried clarifying, hopefully you understand what I mean now.
  - alpaca128 4y ago
    Netflix doesn't have a "purchase" button under every movie/series. Buying games like Minecraft has always been marketed and communicated as a purchase, just like you'd permanently buy a physical product. Now publishers are slowly attempting to effectively steal or lock away those products after we paid for them. Those two things in combination are not okay, publishers should either be honest or keep their word.
    - daviddever23box 4y ago
      ...or not get acquired.
      - alpaca128 4y ago
        A purchase is a purchase. Whether I buy a TV or a game, nobody should be able to take away access after I paid for it. Otherwise write "rent" on the button and clearly state that I might lose access at any time if the publisher feels like it.
    - cinntaile 4y ago
      You purchase a monthly subscription. Purchase is just a synonym for buy, it is not equivalent to owning something.
      - alpaca128 4y ago
        I'm not talking about legal details, but communication. No store page for video games state that the "purchase" button means anything else than, say, the "purchase" button for a shampoo on Amazon. It clearly suggests that when you buy a game you own it, period. When you buy a Netflix subscription it clearly states that it's time-limited. At least the EU seems to - slowly - fight such antipatterns that everyone knows only exist to mislead consumers.
bravetraveler 4y ago
I'm with you. Even if it's an over-exaggerated response to something truly honest, I still support the sentiment. It's the inevitable response to the frog [us] being boiled to where we have no trust With that said, I see this as thinly veiled data collection under the guise of spam prevention. There are perfectly capable methods that respect privacy as you mentioned. They chose to have a mountain of data as a responsibility instead I really wish the industry acted more like we do where we have to (eg: HIPAA) -- if you don't need it, don't collect it.
- google234123 4y ago
  Health care industry should collect everything they can though? More information means doctors can make better decisions.
  - bravetraveler 4y ago
    I'm sure they collect plenty that's diagnostically relevant -- I can't really speak to that. Just a tech guy that's been forced to learn admittedly very little about the area. The idea though is to be cognizant of the data that you need, with the understanding that you're taking on responsibility for that data
silisili 4y ago
> Some people I talked to seemed to think this is a small hill to die on This phrase always rubs me the wrong way, this thinking is how our freedoms slowly slip away. I've been told the same about the TSA, people checking receipts, avoiding most social media, etc etc. It's maddening that so many people are blah about things that they probably shouldn't be, and then further try make others feel bad for standing up for what's right. In short, no you aren't weird - everyone else is. Doing what you believe in is noble. But that's coming from another weirdo :).
- kbelder 4y ago
  Some people still think the slippery slope argument is a fallacy.
norwalkbear 4y ago
Minecraft is not a hard game to clone and even make better.
- blooalien 4y ago
  > "Minecraft is not a hard game to clone and even make better." And … https://veloren.net/ https://veloren.net/ … Bam! Someone's aready done it. ;) (There are countless other examples, but none I've seen yet are quite as extensive and featureful as Veloren.)
jbirer 4y ago
I don't like Microsoft demanding personal data from my children.
donkarma 4y ago
It's a monetary cost. Phone numbers will cost about 0.10 per SMS verification but you can do CAPTCHAs for about 1000 for $1. I think a better solution would be microtransactions of some kind, although imposing any monetary cost will deter spammers. It just depends on how much they get out of it.

nathanaldensr 4y ago

I've been playing Minecraft with my kids since very early on. It's now banned in my house. The heavy-handed approach from Microsoft, including essentially making the game unplayable after I already purchased it multiple times (four to be precise), is a bridge too far. I do not believe in "renting" games; if I purchase something, it's mine. If I don't take a stand somewhere then someday I will "own nothing," and that ain't happening. We'll proceed with other games like console emulators, Stardew Valley, Terraria, etc.

cinntaile 4y ago
Do you use Netflix or a similar service? If yes, what's the difference?
- ziddoap 4y ago
  I don't think it is very difficult to understand the difference. In the Netflix scenario, you know that you are purchasing a subscription service that lets you access content owned/distributed/licensed by Netflix. They aren't advertising that you can own Stranger Things, for example. They advertise that you can watch Stranger Things on-demand. I don't know of anyone who has purchased a Netflix subscription and thought that they own copies of everything on Netflix. In the game scenario, you believe that you are purchasing the game. That's how they market it. The expectation is that once you've made that transaction, you now own that copy of that game to do with as you more or less please. Play it offline, run a local server, put it away and pick it up 10 years from now and still be able to play it, etc. It's increasingly apparent that in many cases, even when you buy something from a game store (MS, Sony, etc.) that you aren't actually purchasing the game, you're purchasing the rights to access it through a particular service. But that's not how the advertise it. And no, I don't think burying this fact behind a few thousand words of legalese is really addressing the issue at all. If you don't understand why that distinction might upset people, I don't know what to say.
  - daviddever23box 4y ago
    You can continue to play the game, up to a given version, provided that you do not upgrade the launcher during that period of time to a version that requires that you provide personal data. You are not entitled to subsequent updates or upgrades.
    - alpaca128 4y ago
      You are forced to update the launcher and game if you reinstall the OS or get a new computer, and most likely it'll just auto-update without asking. There is no way to download or archive old versions. > You are not entitled to subsequent updates or upgrades. Then those should be truly optional and the store page should visibly state this limitation while keeping the purchased version accessible.
      - cwillu 4y ago
        Worth noting that when I purchased minecraft back in 2011, the store page did in fact (according to archive.org) say: “When you purchase Minecraft you do so as is, be it in the early stages of development or already fully released. Subsequent updates are only an added bonus and not a guarantee, as icing on a cake. Purchases during the development of the game are discounted and include the full game upon release.” and “When you purchase a game from us, you fill in your personal/company details. You agree that we store and use your information in our organization to complete the agreement towards you. You have the right, according to the law Personuppgiftslagen (PUL) in Sweden to know about the information registered about you. If it is wrong, insufficient or irrelevant you have the right to make sure that it gets corrected or removed.” But the rest of your comment stands.
    - daviddever23box 4y ago
      I keep copies of any downloadable installer I use for this very reason, as it's always possible that you'll wish later that you'd kept that n-1th version.
  - cinntaile 4y ago
    He claimed if he purchases something he owns it, so I was wondering if he had a Netflix account. Because then he clearly doesn't have a problem with just renting content after making a purchase, despite his claims. > Play it offline, run a local server, put it away and pick it up 10 years from now and still be able to play it, etc. While it's sad, this hasn't been true the last 10-15 years. They don't claim you own a game after you buy it, that would be false advertising. Hence why they could change his gaming experience in such a disruptive way. > If you don't understand why that distinction might upset people, I don't know what to say. I tried clarifying, hopefully you understand what I mean now.
- alpaca128 4y ago
  Netflix doesn't have a "purchase" button under every movie/series. Buying games like Minecraft has always been marketed and communicated as a purchase, just like you'd permanently buy a physical product. Now publishers are slowly attempting to effectively steal or lock away those products after we paid for them. Those two things in combination are not okay, publishers should either be honest or keep their word.
  - daviddever23box 4y ago
    ...or not get acquired.
    - alpaca128 4y ago
      A purchase is a purchase. Whether I buy a TV or a game, nobody should be able to take away access after I paid for it. Otherwise write "rent" on the button and clearly state that I might lose access at any time if the publisher feels like it.
  - cinntaile 4y ago
    You purchase a monthly subscription. Purchase is just a synonym for buy, it is not equivalent to owning something.
    - alpaca128 4y ago
      I'm not talking about legal details, but communication. No store page for video games state that the "purchase" button means anything else than, say, the "purchase" button for a shampoo on Amazon. It clearly suggests that when you buy a game you own it, period. When you buy a Netflix subscription it clearly states that it's time-limited. At least the EU seems to - slowly - fight such antipatterns that everyone knows only exist to mislead consumers.

bravetraveler 4y ago

I'm with you. Even if it's an over-exaggerated response to something truly honest, I still support the sentiment. It's the inevitable response to the frog [us] being boiled to where we have no trust With that said, I see this as thinly veiled data collection under the guise of spam prevention. There are perfectly capable methods that respect privacy as you mentioned. They chose to have a mountain of data as a responsibility instead I really wish the industry acted more like we do where we have to (eg: HIPAA) -- if you don't need it, don't collect it.

google234123 4y ago
Health care industry should collect everything they can though? More information means doctors can make better decisions.
- bravetraveler 4y ago
  I'm sure they collect plenty that's diagnostically relevant -- I can't really speak to that. Just a tech guy that's been forced to learn admittedly very little about the area. The idea though is to be cognizant of the data that you need, with the understanding that you're taking on responsibility for that data

silisili 4y ago

> Some people I talked to seemed to think this is a small hill to die on This phrase always rubs me the wrong way, this thinking is how our freedoms slowly slip away. I've been told the same about the TSA, people checking receipts, avoiding most social media, etc etc. It's maddening that so many people are blah about things that they probably shouldn't be, and then further try make others feel bad for standing up for what's right. In short, no you aren't weird - everyone else is. Doing what you believe in is noble. But that's coming from another weirdo :).

kbelder 4y ago
Some people still think the slippery slope argument is a fallacy.

norwalkbear 4y ago

Minecraft is not a hard game to clone and even make better.

blooalien 4y ago
> "Minecraft is not a hard game to clone and even make better." And … https://veloren.net/ https://veloren.net/ … Bam! Someone's aready done it. ;) (There are countless other examples, but none I've seen yet are quite as extensive and featureful as Veloren.)

jbirer 4y ago

I don't like Microsoft demanding personal data from my children.

donkarma 4y ago

It's a monetary cost. Phone numbers will cost about 0.10 per SMS verification but you can do CAPTCHAs for about 1000 for $1. I think a better solution would be microtransactions of some kind, although imposing any monetary cost will deter spammers. It just depends on how much they get out of it.