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This kind of solution is absolutely what's required. Two addendums: First, make the deposit a function of battery size not item size or cost (small battery $5

This kind of solution is absolutely what's required. Two addendums: First, make the deposit a function of battery size not item size or cost (small battery $5 deposit, medium battery $10, large $50). This way the environmental cost of a specific battery is linked to the consumer's cost in a way that it isn't really now when the variation in battery cost is swallowed up in the cost of the item itself. Second, peg this deposit to inflation. 20 years ago the 5c deposit on a beer can meant a lot more than it does today. I'm old enough to remember my fairly well off grandparents saving up their cans and returning them. Today, nobody I know bothers.

BizarroLand 4y ago
Yeah, if soda bottles had a $1 deposit on them to ensure proper recycling that would be pretty tough to adjust to but good for the environment.
bombcar 4y ago
It also provides an effective income for those disadvantaged enough; if the five cent deposit on cans had increased with inflation there'd still be an incentive to do it. $1-5 for vape devices would be similar.
DoingIsLearning 4y ago
Third, make manufacturers pay for deposit on devices with non-replaceable batteries. As in tax them at the time of purchase, on batteries that render a device unusable.
- Nition 4y ago
  I have to say, it seems ridiculous that we're at the point where people are dying in Europe this week from a heatwave exacerbated by climate change, and we're not even implementing basic measures like this yet.
  - gruez 4y ago
    How much contribution does "electronics with non-replaceable batteries" add to climate change? 10%? 1%? 0.1%? Bringing this up when talking about climate change is like bringing up plastic straws bans in first world countries when talking about microplastic pollution (ie. ignoring the fact that half of microplastics in the ocean comes from fishing gear).
    - ornornor 4y ago
      You’ve got to start somewhere though. And anywhere is marginally better than nowhere. As opposed to throwing your arms up in the air saying “it’s pointless we should be doing something else instead so let’s do nothing at all”. That’s exactly what the industry is aiming for, learned helplessness.
      - exabrial 4y ago
        > And anywhere is marginally better than nowhere. No. Stepping over dollars to pick up pennies is stupid.
        mrguyorama 4y ago
        The problem is a significant portion of people utterly refuse to say those dollars exist, or that they should be picked up.
      - DoingIsLearning 4y ago
        > That’s exactly what the industry is aiming for, learned helplessness. I am wholely in agreement with you but there are some pretty big percentage wise holes that we need to plug. Namely: 1. Getting ride of coal and Natural Gas power generation (which means replacing with renewables +storage, or fission, none of which are easily deployable) 2. Stopping methane leaks in Oil&Gas pipelines and active/decomissioned wells.
      - tsol 4y ago
        My argument against minimally effective action is that it can make people feel like they did something significant, and therefore discourage further change. Those plastic straws effective function in our society isn't that it removes plastic waste, it just absolves us of responsibility by letting us say we tried
- ascar 4y ago
  That has a) nothing to do with the topic at hand (improving recycling rates) anr b) isn't even effective. A deposit isn't a tax. You need to give the consumer money for actually bringing the product to a recycling spot, so a tax doesn't help. Psychological it's a better motivator if that money was originally paid by the consumer as in you're losing money you paid, if you don't bring it back, and it's also much easier to implement. If you want to tax non-replaceable batteries that will just be factored into the price and the thing is that easily replaceable batteries are in conflict with other design goals consumers are willing to pay for (like water proofness). I understand the frustration with non-replaceable batteries creating some kind of planned obsolescence, but there is no easy solution without sacrificing other things.
  - nemothekid 4y ago
    >You need to give the consumer money for actually bringing the product to a recycling spot, so a tax doesn't help. Where does the money come from that you are giving consumers for their batteries?
    - dec0dedab0de 4y ago
      It's a deposit just like how some states do for cans. You pay extra when you buy it, and when you bring it back to be recycled you get the money back
      - nemothekid 4y ago
        I guess I'm not seeing how this is fundamentally different than a tax.
        dec0dedab0de 4y ago
        Because you get it back. If anything, the state run deposit programs lose money from people returning cans from out of the state. But it doesn't even have to be state run. It could simply be mandated that the manufacturers buy back their old batteries for a minimum price.
jefftk 4y ago
> peg this deposit to inflation. 20 years ago the 5c deposit on a beer can meant a lot more than it does today Adjusted for inflation, 5¢ in 2002 would just be 8¢.
- softfalcon 4y ago
  You might have to forgive them, if they’re talking about their folks with the ear marked “20 years” they’re likely old like me and think that means 1970. Us old folks tend to think “20 years ago” means 20 years before 1990’s. It’s a common mental flub. That would make the inflation value closer to $0.38 in today’s money. It’s not a lot, but when you’re getting almost 8x the amount for each can, it adds up.
  - jefftk 4y ago
    Bottle deposits aren't that old: MA is 1982, CA is 1987, etc: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container_deposit_legislation_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container_deposit_legislation_... 5¢ in 1982 would be 15¢ now, so it's more, but not that much more?
    - drewzero1 4y ago
      It is 3X, and when it's per can that does add up to a significant amount. That would add $1.20 to a 12-pack case, which usually cost just $6 here (admittedly a state that doesn't do deposits).
    - ascar 4y ago
      Glass bottles have 8 Cent deposit in Germany and plastic bottles/tin cans have 25 Cent. I rarely ever not bring a plastic bottle or can back, but I do let glass bottles stand around near garbage cans for the bottle collectors. I see the same behavior among many others. It's just anecdotal, but that 3x seems to make a huge difference.
    - SoftTalker 4y ago
      Bottle deposits were a thing in the 1970s when I was a kid. Those bottles were heavy glass, made to be returned, washed, and re-used many times. I'm not sure it was legislated however, I think it was just what the local bottlers did to get their bottles back.
onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
Maybe we should tax externalities of non-renewables more before we start taxing renewables?
- kennywinker 4y ago
  A deposit isn’t a tax, it’s an incentive to make sure that a renewable stays in the cycle instead of ending up in the environment. Return it and you get your money back.
- drekipus 4y ago
  I think we're talking about giving money, not taking money

BizarroLand 4y ago

Yeah, if soda bottles had a $1 deposit on them to ensure proper recycling that would be pretty tough to adjust to but good for the environment.

bombcar 4y ago

It also provides an effective income for those disadvantaged enough; if the five cent deposit on cans had increased with inflation there'd still be an incentive to do it. $1-5 for vape devices would be similar.

DoingIsLearning 4y ago

Third, make manufacturers pay for deposit on devices with non-replaceable batteries. As in tax them at the time of purchase, on batteries that render a device unusable.

Nition 4y ago
I have to say, it seems ridiculous that we're at the point where people are dying in Europe this week from a heatwave exacerbated by climate change, and we're not even implementing basic measures like this yet.
- gruez 4y ago
  How much contribution does "electronics with non-replaceable batteries" add to climate change? 10%? 1%? 0.1%? Bringing this up when talking about climate change is like bringing up plastic straws bans in first world countries when talking about microplastic pollution (ie. ignoring the fact that half of microplastics in the ocean comes from fishing gear).
  - ornornor 4y ago
    You’ve got to start somewhere though. And anywhere is marginally better than nowhere. As opposed to throwing your arms up in the air saying “it’s pointless we should be doing something else instead so let’s do nothing at all”. That’s exactly what the industry is aiming for, learned helplessness.
    - exabrial 4y ago
      > And anywhere is marginally better than nowhere. No. Stepping over dollars to pick up pennies is stupid.
      - mrguyorama 4y ago
        The problem is a significant portion of people utterly refuse to say those dollars exist, or that they should be picked up.
    - DoingIsLearning 4y ago
      > That’s exactly what the industry is aiming for, learned helplessness. I am wholely in agreement with you but there are some pretty big percentage wise holes that we need to plug. Namely: 1. Getting ride of coal and Natural Gas power generation (which means replacing with renewables +storage, or fission, none of which are easily deployable) 2. Stopping methane leaks in Oil&Gas pipelines and active/decomissioned wells.
    - tsol 4y ago
      My argument against minimally effective action is that it can make people feel like they did something significant, and therefore discourage further change. Those plastic straws effective function in our society isn't that it removes plastic waste, it just absolves us of responsibility by letting us say we tried
ascar 4y ago
That has a) nothing to do with the topic at hand (improving recycling rates) anr b) isn't even effective. A deposit isn't a tax. You need to give the consumer money for actually bringing the product to a recycling spot, so a tax doesn't help. Psychological it's a better motivator if that money was originally paid by the consumer as in you're losing money you paid, if you don't bring it back, and it's also much easier to implement. If you want to tax non-replaceable batteries that will just be factored into the price and the thing is that easily replaceable batteries are in conflict with other design goals consumers are willing to pay for (like water proofness). I understand the frustration with non-replaceable batteries creating some kind of planned obsolescence, but there is no easy solution without sacrificing other things.
- nemothekid 4y ago
  >You need to give the consumer money for actually bringing the product to a recycling spot, so a tax doesn't help. Where does the money come from that you are giving consumers for their batteries?
  - dec0dedab0de 4y ago
    It's a deposit just like how some states do for cans. You pay extra when you buy it, and when you bring it back to be recycled you get the money back
    - nemothekid 4y ago
      I guess I'm not seeing how this is fundamentally different than a tax.
      - dec0dedab0de 4y ago
        Because you get it back. If anything, the state run deposit programs lose money from people returning cans from out of the state. But it doesn't even have to be state run. It could simply be mandated that the manufacturers buy back their old batteries for a minimum price.

jefftk 4y ago

> peg this deposit to inflation. 20 years ago the 5c deposit on a beer can meant a lot more than it does today Adjusted for inflation, 5¢ in 2002 would just be 8¢.

softfalcon 4y ago
You might have to forgive them, if they’re talking about their folks with the ear marked “20 years” they’re likely old like me and think that means 1970. Us old folks tend to think “20 years ago” means 20 years before 1990’s. It’s a common mental flub. That would make the inflation value closer to $0.38 in today’s money. It’s not a lot, but when you’re getting almost 8x the amount for each can, it adds up.
- jefftk 4y ago
  Bottle deposits aren't that old: MA is 1982, CA is 1987, etc: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container_deposit_legislation_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container_deposit_legislation_... 5¢ in 1982 would be 15¢ now, so it's more, but not that much more?
  - drewzero1 4y ago
    It is 3X, and when it's per can that does add up to a significant amount. That would add $1.20 to a 12-pack case, which usually cost just $6 here (admittedly a state that doesn't do deposits).
  - ascar 4y ago
    Glass bottles have 8 Cent deposit in Germany and plastic bottles/tin cans have 25 Cent. I rarely ever not bring a plastic bottle or can back, but I do let glass bottles stand around near garbage cans for the bottle collectors. I see the same behavior among many others. It's just anecdotal, but that 3x seems to make a huge difference.
  - SoftTalker 4y ago
    Bottle deposits were a thing in the 1970s when I was a kid. Those bottles were heavy glass, made to be returned, washed, and re-used many times. I'm not sure it was legislated however, I think it was just what the local bottlers did to get their bottles back.

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago

Maybe we should tax externalities of non-renewables more before we start taxing renewables?

kennywinker 4y ago
A deposit isn’t a tax, it’s an incentive to make sure that a renewable stays in the cycle instead of ending up in the environment. Return it and you get your money back.
drekipus 4y ago
I think we're talking about giving money, not taking money