13 ms·

A systems model of anxiety-driven procrastination

356 points by CiceroCiceronis 4y ago

Sporktacular 4y ago
Thanks to everyone who contributed to this. It's a helpful discussion.
jamesy0ung 4y ago
Error 500 for me. Looks like it's having trouble.
bardworx 4y ago
Was the presentation taken down or does it not work on mobile? Getting 500 error on embedded site & link.
iammjm 4y ago
500 Internal Error Sorry, something went wrong on our end. We've been notified of the issue and our guys are on it. Sorry for the inconvenience!
- tux3 4y ago
  Maybe they need to spin up a few dozen more VMs on EC2 to handle all of the couple thousand visitors a second HN is throwing at them. It's more scalable, you see, you just need to wait until the wave has passed before the autoscaler is warmed up.
  - flyteuk 4y ago
    I've taken a ticket. Please let me know when it's my turn to look at the website.
    - game-of-throws 4y ago
      Your HTTP request is very important to us and will be answered in the order received.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- is_true 4y ago
  https://embed.kumu.io/1feca726268dbbda0f905fb7be844e5e#anxiety-driven-procrastination https://embed.kumu.io/1feca726268dbbda0f905fb7be844e5e#anxie...
Linda703 4y ago
[dead]
beardedwizard 4y ago
See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32123781 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32123781 as a great example of procrastination disguised as productivity
spyremeown 4y ago
We hugged this one real tight.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
closedloop129 4y ago
The previous article [1] has these paragraphs: >I have always been a bad procrastinator. I think my procrastination habits are rooted in anxiety. >As you might guess, comprehensive exams are very anxiety-provoking. So, when I first began preparing, I had a lot of trouble. I tried to draw on best practices—breaking down the task, defining the end goal, practicing mindfulness—but I was struggling. >One of the things I would use to procrastinate was Shortcuts. >Then, one day, I realized: why not build an automation that guides me through these best practices to conquer procrastination? >That’s where Mise en place came from. The name is stolen from the French culinary concept of “setting in place” everything you need before you begin cooking. >The core concept of the Mise en place shortcut is simple: lead me through a preparatory ritual to reduce anxiety, and then add some check-ins to help catch me in the act if I go too far off-task. [1] https://axle.design/automation-for-augmented-cognition-mise-en-place https://axle.design/automation-for-augmented-cognition-mise-...
user3939382 4y ago
I used to think I had a problem with procrastination. I realized what was really happening was, I’m sometimes compelled to do something I don’t want to do. In those situations I have to just talk simply and honestly with myself: I’m not doing x because I don’t want to and I accept the consequences of not doing it, or, I’m doing x even though I don’t want to. Calling it procrastination was for me actually saying a variation of the former. I don’t want to do x, but I also don’t want to accept the consequences of not doing it, so I’ll bullshit myself and pretend I’m doing it by calling it procrastination. Better to admit #1 and recognize that I may choose to change my mind and do it later. Practically it’s the same, but this way I’m being honest with myself.
- wahnfrieden 4y ago
  I think we focus a lot on procrastination and less on a severe and widely experienced social illness, of being controlled by others. How often are we ordered to do something by another person in our communities that we can't readily disobey, how easy is it for any of us to choose to relocate to another community, how much of the value you can generate is taken from you. Living this way strips our agency and limits/devalues our individual capability for vision. Adapting to this and considering it normal is bound to lead to other issues that we end up blaming ourselves for, because it is possible to cope and do better within the framework so it feels that any lack of progress there is an individualized failure
  - muzani 4y ago
    That is how society works. I do not rear chickens. I do not behead the chicken. Sometimes I buy the chicken, forget to eat it, and worms get to it. I look in disgust at my worm-filled trash, but it's some other guy that carries the trash and the worms to an incinerator. The trash guy goes home, turns on the tv, lies in bed complaining about how there's too many choices on his streaming service but nothing to watch. But somewhere out there's a guy like me who makes sure that the trash guy gets too many choices instead of going out at night to buy pirated DVDs. That's how we change the world. On Wednesday, we will start event storming sessions on a million dollar project to get the Japanese subs and dubs to say the same thing. Trash guy wishes he was valued higher for his labor. I wish I could watch trashy shows on weekends instead of looking at procrastination flowcharts. Somewhere out there there's a CEO making a 8 digit salary from controlling people, but he wakes up at 4 AM and considers it a good day if he logs off work at 7 PM.
boredemployee 4y ago
I have a mix of low to moderate ADHD, moderate social anxiety and moderate general anxiety and have been a world class procrastinator. But having a child changed the scenario. because I had to force myself to focus in what really matters, stopped to be a perfectionist (which sometimes is a excuse to procrastinate) otherwhise I'd be in prison (for not paying my kid bills) or probably homeless.
- chrsig 4y ago
  having a family really reigns in the upper bound of impulsivity. it's one of the few things that can hold me back from rage quitting or help me do the things I'm avoiding
  - boredemployee 4y ago
    exactly that. having a few people that depends on me is like a driving force to get shit done. we should take it with care tho, because it can be unhealthy in a lot of ways (I tend to no care with the same intensity about my health/body, dont go outside with the frequency that I should to exercise and things like that)
- ryanjamurphy 4y ago
  I hear you on this one. Having a kiddo is what helped me realize I needed to take my procrastination issues seriously. Still, while I thought it'd be a major driver for more responsible behaviour, it didn't give me any solutions, and I didn't magically stop. Alas, procrastinating by playing with the kiddo sure is fun!
joshgree8888 4y ago
luxuryballs 4y ago
Ok everyone that’s enough I think it’s already dead!
RedShift1 4y ago
I'll look at it tomorrow
whoomp12342 4y ago
is this satire? the page says "sorry the model could not be loaded"
- wawjgreen 4y ago
  the model decided to procrastinate, due to the anxiety of being put on display.
photochemsyn 4y ago
Anxiety-driven procrastination models: "What if I do a bunch of work on this project, but because I've chosen the wrong approach, I have to throw it all away and start over? What approach is the right one? Everyone on the web has conflicting opinions!" The only solution is to give yourself a time limit on background research and then, make a decision, commit and just build something. This is different from boredom-driven procrastination, which is more of the nature of: "I have this extremely tedious job to do, which I am not looking forward to, as it will use energy I could much better spend doing other things." This kind of procrastination can be levered to get other things done, however. Think of all the things you want to get done, and then do all those things as an alternative to doing that one really tedious, boring task that can then be put off until tomorrow (again).
yamrzou 4y ago
Chronic procrastination can be associated with perfectionism, in which case it is the result of fear of failure because of the self-imposed high standards. The reason for the fear of failure is that the failure is perceived as the individual failing to measure up to their ideal self, which threatens their self-worth. So procrastination is a defense mechanism, but it is a maladaptive one, because the individual ends up feeling ashamed of their procrastination.
- Venkatesh10 4y ago
  How do you come out of this and break the cycle? I suffer from this and haven't been able to do anything I want. Is there any steps, guide or help available? Thanks in advance.
  - jack_pp 4y ago
    This was a good read for me, I'm not cured but it helps. https://arunkprasad.com/log/unlearning-perfectionism/ https://arunkprasad.com/log/unlearning-perfectionism/
  - jraph 4y ago
    Worse is better. Something is better than nothing. Is it really important that it is perfect? Who really cares? What do you win by doing this imperfectly (time - to achieve other / more meaningful things, or to rest, or to spend time with people you care about, or for your hobbies) What do you lose by doing this imperfectly? Not much usually. Who will notice? Probably nobody. In the grand scheme of things, why bother anyway? What are you trying to achieve? This task perfectly, or this task is just a something you need to do to get paid so you can have a meaningful life? If people do care for a specific aspect/corner, they'll tell you anyway. They probably prefer seeing something earlier so they can give feedback, so you can achieve an even better result, counter-intuitively. Besides all this, I think I achieve this by not caring so much and not tying myself personally to much to the task. And by thinking about the outcome. Perfect often leads to worse outcome, and is relative to only you anyway because other people care about other stuff than you. Of course, it is still important to achieve the task correctly, but as perfectionist we usually need to take a step back.
tamsaraas 4y ago
People, instead of visiting a psychiatrist, come up with various explanations and explanations that have nothing to do with psychiatry. And everyone pretends to be an expert on all issues that are far from psychiatry, from the methods of psychiatry, from pills and drugs and methods of treatment. But everyone tells with great certainty that "you are procrastinating, it is caused by X." I have been procrastinating for over 10 years. And then it turned out - that this is a common depression. Which ruined a lot of life. After starting treatment with a psychiatrist and taking pills, my working capacity increased significantly. There was a lot of strength and motivation. My advice to those who feel problems with concentration, with the power to force themselves to do something, and so on. Just see a professional doctor. Come to the reception. Describe your situation. And according to the results, you will be prescribed pills that will help you, after a short period of time, significantly return what you have lost due to illness.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- passing_through 4y ago
  Hey, thanks for this! I've been considering going to the doctor for a long time, but never have. I just sent my GP an e-mail and hopefully will have an appointment set up soon.
- vanjajaja1 4y ago
  There is an alternate world view that says "if you're struggling to make yourself do X, its because you don't actually want to do X and you should figure out what it is you actually want to do". Going to a psychiatrist for drugs to help you do the thing you "don't actually want to do" goes against this world view.
  - idontpost 4y ago
    The inability to delay gratification doesn't qualify as a world view.
t_mann 4y ago
Is this link up here for the content or for the tech? I don't get it either way - the app is nice, but it's built using another system (and I'd have lots of suggestions to improve how it renders on this site). In terms of content, it's not clear whether the network model is one taken from the published literature, or something the author created ad-hoc (feels a bit like the latter). And I don't get the point of assigning network centrality measures to topics like "facing fears" without explanation (seems like they came with the app, which was designed for a different purpose, and the author didn't know how to take them out, or didn't bother). I have a therapist friend who's shown me some very useful, evidence-based cognitive models. They do come with nice visual explanations too, and putting those into a web app has been on the back of my mind since - but they looked quite different.
- ryanjamurphy 4y ago
  Author here. I hear ya on the rendering. This systems sketch was by me, for me, but I published it with minimal effort just in case it might help someone else. It probably would've been better just to publish a link to the model than to embed it, though. As for the content, it's ad hoc, albeit not entirely without evidence. It's based on a bit of self-study (e.g., autoethnographic observations of my own thoughts and behaviours and passive reading of the psych literature on procrastination). The centrality measures shouldn't actually be there... Long, boring story short: they're an artifact of some systemic leverage analysis [1] I was doing on a more involved model[2]. Last, I'd love to see those cognitive models. From what I've found, we understand a great many of the pieces of procrastination, but it still takes work to put them together for any one person's situation. [1]: http://openresearch.ocadu.ca/id/eprint/2888/ http://openresearch.ocadu.ca/id/eprint/2888/ [2]: https://embed.kumu.io/fc78b8660224a57734e0bb6c52cebbd8#anxiety-driven-procrastination-v2 https://embed.kumu.io/fc78b8660224a57734e0bb6c52cebbd8#anxie...
  - t_mann 4y ago
    Thanks for responding, that is some cool content! As I mentioned, I've also been thinking about putting up some related content- feel free to reach out, my email is in my profile.
codecurve 4y ago
Sorry for the Kumu 500s! I moved some critical parts of our service away from EC2 classic on Saturday morning. One of our servers was accidentally recreated with an 8GB volume instead of 1TB and the HN hug caused a process to blow through the remaining disk space with indexes. Should be back to working order now!
WhitneyLand 4y ago
Are these the best solutions? There’s got to be something else, maybe something more drastic when fighting with your self over things that life important.
jbirer 4y ago
throwaway81523 4y ago
This thing is unreadable because of the crazy interactive animation and whatever getting all messed up, at least under my browser and adblock settings. Couldn't they put it on a plain readable page? There is a link saying something about a pdf, but that gets a 500 error. Procrastination is a serious issue for some people, and its causes can be quite complicated.
user_7832 4y ago
I've said it before, and I feel need to say it again. If you don't have time to read the whole thing please skip to the summary at the end. There is anxiety, procrastination and task avoidance that everybody faces. Everybody has some things they don't like to or want to do. However, what some people facing these issues often don't realize is that if it's happening (almost) everywhere, it could be something else. Are you struggling with a solid 50% of your tasks? Maybe even 100%? That's not normal, I'm sorry to say (I'm in this boat myself for what it's worth). Don't feel bad, it's very likely not your fault. Ask yourself - is my life significantly impaired by such procrastination issues? Are you missing important things because of your "tardiness"? (I have missed a funeral... simply because I forgot. Of course I didn't want to miss it.) Perhaps lost a job, or strained friendships/marriages because of your forgetfulness? Do you struggle with long-term plans and their implementation? Perhaps have 1000s of unread emails and now no longer care, even though deep down you would have loved a zero-inbox? Do you have more unfulfilled wishes, ambitious desires and crazy fantasies but struggle to live in the confines of reality? Justifying your inability to do amazing things because "you unfortunately live in the real world" and "neither does Bob"? Well, it might be ADHD. Or autism. Or (C)PTSD. Or brain injury/trauma. Perhaps depression. Maybe generalized anxiety disorder, or OCD, or OCPD (note the extra letter). It could be a combination of those things, or perhaps neither. But if you felt some or many of those things to a strong extent, please read up more on executive dysfunction along with these conditions. Getting diagnosed, and treated - therapy, medications (esp for ADHD) - can be very helpful, to put it mildly. An analogy I like to use is that everybody pees several times a day, but if you're peeing 30 times a day you should probably see a doctor. Tldr/summary: A bunch of things can cause procrastination and anxiety/feeling bad etc like executive dysfunction ESPECIALLY if a. You're procrastinating despite not wanting to, and probably feeling crappy about it b. you also significantly struggle with time management/organization/long term planning and implementation(google its symptoms). Executive dysfunction can be due to AD(H)D, autism, brain trauma/injury, PTSD etc, not just depression/"being lazy^+", so please read up online, get informed, and get an appointment with your GP/psychiatrist. And oh, go through this before you leave: https://comorbidityguidelines.org.au/img/appendices/appendix-q.PNG https://comorbidityguidelines.org.au/img/appendices/appendix... It's estimated that anywhere from 5 to 8 to 10% of the population has ADHD (and adult ADHD is very undiagnosed), so using the metrics of my last ADHD/health awareness post^ (which had 11 points), using the 1-9-90%^& internet rule about 110 people saw that post which statistically implies around 9 people with ADHD. You might be one of them, and understanding ADHD/whatever you're experiencing is generally life-changing for the better. ^ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31878094 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31878094 ^& https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule ^+ I don't think anybody is truly lazy, there's a solid blog post (and book by the author) to read: https://humanparts.medium.com/laziness-does-not-exist-3af27e312d01 https://humanparts.medium.com/laziness-does-not-exist-3af27e...
triggercut 4y ago
I thought this was me. Many professionals told me this was me. I had a horrible off and on decade fighting it, trying to do all the things you're supposed to, feeling guilty for failing and hating myself. A decade later someone finally figured out - despite the small fortune spent on education and medical professionals - that I actually had ADHD and some learning disabilities. There was a slightly different model with previously hidden forces. Only now, knowing this, have I finally been able to effect real positive change for myself. Make sure you have the right model for you.
rr808 4y ago
Actually I read this the other day and its actually great. Despite the headline it doesn't actually say how to deal with it, only how annoying it is for other people - which actually helps me. Procrastinators eventually turn up late with their work explaining how they were toiling all night to get it done and expecting gratitude and sympathy for their incredible dedication. Of course, everyone else knows that this self-sacrifice was because the person concerned had been scrolling through TikTok videos and binge-watching Love Island UK for the previous two weeks when they were supposed to be getting it done. There is no chance to review the work, no time for a run through, and half-baked ideas full of mistakes are presented. We're supposed to be grateful for this. Yes, everyone is late on occasion, but if it happens: Every. Single. Freaking. Time. Then there's a problem. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/paul-catmur-how-to-deal-with-procrastination-read-this-immediately/TLPACJGUBPTWEJRP24JGNHPH6A/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/paul-catmur-how-to-deal-...
Quikinterp 4y ago
I struggle with being lazy in all aspects of my life. I have ADHD and anxiety. Does anyone know of where I should start looking to lower my procrastination and laziness? It doesn't feel like I'm lazy, because I also don't get things done that I WANT to do. I simply do not know why I don't get things done. I don't know if I'm lazy or paralyzed by fear. Trying new things is always hard for me
- yomkippur 4y ago
  For me its the overwhelming amount of decision making that prevents me. Imagine for a moment you have to make decisions that impact a lot of people and you can't just do stuff on a whim. Under this model, you would delay an important decision to the very last possible moment. In addition as engineers, it can feel like you are walking in circles when examining your solution. It's not just writing code that is the issue, its dealing with these valleys and troughs of emotion that comes with undertaking work. Even labor jobs require a certain level of internal rally cry if it makes sense. It's even more tougher that require constant mental attention and analysis. Which is why the financial buy-side for me was too much. The anxiety alone, the uncertainty aspect of it would make it very tough to execute, especially because there are few variables that is completely out of your control. Many burn out and many only end up collecting the management fee. Few that make it seem to not too sound either.
- ttul 4y ago
  Have you considered trialing medication? ADHD medication is among the most effective brain-targeted medication known to medical science. Both methylphenidate and amphetamine-based drugs have a 90% effectiveness rate.
  - Quikinterp 4y ago
    I have and I do use it, and it helps me a lot. But it still feels like there's an underlying laziness to myself. Maybe I should try other medication because I sort of stuck with the first one I tried, and only trialed the doses after that
    - 4y ago
havblue 4y ago
I notice an odd thing when I want to procrastinate/am feeling overwhelmed: I tend to get tired and fall asleep. Which I guess means I'm not making progress but trying to will my brain to pay attention, so it takes a break. Anyone have advice for this?
- ryanjamurphy 4y ago
  Maybe you're experiencing the stage of emotional disregulation beyond fight or flight: freeze.[1] I have been trying to actually take a real break when I get distressed. Say you've been procrastinating for an hour, and you only have another hour before you need to stop for the day. In the moment, it feels like you can't "waste" fifteen minutes on a break because you just wasted an hour. Truth is, though, it's better to spend fifteen minutes doing something to calm the emotions down and then get a productive 45 minutes in. It takes practice, but like all good habits, the benefits compound over time. [1]: I really like Sarah Schlote's work explaining interoception of stress and emotional regulation. https://equusoma.com/the-ponyvagal-theory-updates-to-the-neuroception-curve/ https://equusoma.com/the-ponyvagal-theory-updates-to-the-neu...
teekert 4y ago
I procrastinate a lot. But when I find an enjoyable, challenging task I go very fast and can’t seem to stop. I’ve just been honest at work about it and very consciously take tasks that seem exciting. It works well for me. Tbh I really procrastinate when I either don’t understand the reason for doing something or when I do and find it bs. So it always helps to spend some time trying to understand a task and subsequently to articulate why I think the task should either not exist or be addressed differently. Sometimes I can get away with not doing the boring thing.
ryanjamurphy 4y ago
Hi HN! Exciting to see this model get some attention. Admittedly, it is mostly a sketch. I created this model in self-study but published it just in case it might help someone else. As Brené Brown says, I'm trying to get it right, not to be right. Still, I think there's a few key insights here: 1. As other replies have suggested, this model might not fit you. Procrastination is an umbrella term that describes a variety of issues, and sometimes those issues interlock! If you're struggling to match intention with action, find your model. Also, talk to a counsellor. They really help. 2. Systems sketching — in combination with self-study of our thoughts and behaviours — is a really interesting way to understand our own cognitive-behavioural problems. In my case, I sketched this model after realizing for the first time that anxiety might play a role in my procrastination behaviours. It helped me see how powerful that role really was. After creating this model at the beginning of 2022, I engaged a counsellor and have been doing a lot more self-study. A work-in-progress on a far more involved (and idiosyncratic) model is available here: https://embed.kumu.io/fc78b8660224a57734e0bb6c52cebbd8 https://embed.kumu.io/fc78b8660224a57734e0bb6c52cebbd8 (Oddly enough, this was shared about 24 hours after I finished a research paper on all this work. I'll share that via my blog if and when it gets accepted by the destination.) Thanks for a rich discussion — and thanks Kumu team for addressing the traffic spike issues.
- ryanjamurphy 4y ago
  Oh, I forgot to add: Tim Pychyl's work and podcast was such an essential resource for me as I started to take my procrastination issues more seriously.[1] Tim's a procrastination researcher out of the University of Ottawa, I think. The podcast does a fantastic job of making current research on procrastination accessible and engaging. [1]: https://www.procrastination.ca https://www.procrastination.ca
- divan 4y ago
  Hey! How did you choose Kumu? I'm currently exploring a landscape of SD tools, and Kumu seems both cool and unusual, but it's not clear if it can be used a replacements for Stella Architect, which is prohibitevely expensive. Does it have features like feedback loop analysis, for example?
vegesm 4y ago
This rings so true with me. I have a side project [1] that I try to promote and it always feels hard. Where do I start? Should I post comments in random subreddits? Should I write blog posts that may nobody read in the end? Start doing ads? I think having the multiple options kinda freezes me and it is so hard to start doing something. [1] https://androidcalculator.com/ https://androidcalculator.com/
bergenty 4y ago
I don’t procrastinate. I just don’t want to do things I’d rather not do. Procrastinate is such a “life is work” term it’s almost propaganda.
- ryanjamurphy 4y ago
  This is a fine perspective to have, but it is also possible to procrastinate on things you do want to do. That's what I have been trying to personally address, anyway.
agumonkey 4y ago
I'm thinking about a combinatorial approach to fight procrastination. Look at possibilities, subconfiguration, see what is easiest to try, order them in the cheapest way, and then just try until there's no more options. It removes the liability aspect a bit.
chkaloon 4y ago
I get anxious just looking at all those circles, boxes and arrows.
edub 4y ago
re: "mental imagery" (imagine yourself after the work has happened) - In my experience imagining myself after the work has happened is a net negative. Once I perform the act of imagining the task/project complete, I receive the dopamine reward of completing the project, and no longer have an interest in actually doing the work. I derive the most satisfaction in conquering a very complicated problem, and if I get it all figured out in my head, then I've got what I need out of it and doing all the actual implementation doesn't bring any new satisfaction to me, so I tend to then move on to the next complicated problem I can work through in my head. When I have a team of developers working for me, the project moves forward under their efforts and something really cool comes to fruition, but when I'm solo, the project stops once I've figured out the solution. BTW - people are quick to preface with IANAL (109,000 google results), but I think it is equally important for people to start saying IANAP (I am not a psychiatrist, 633 google results). Offering armchair psychiatric advice seems like the risks are greater than armchair legal advice, because people's lives are on the line. See what /u/tamsaraas said in this thread, it is valuable. Time to normalize IANAP. IANAP - but being exposed to all the discussion on HN about procrastination has helped me realize that I might suffer from executive dysfunction and have ADHD. But I'm seeking therapy to get a proper diagnosis and treatment for it. I appreciate people sharing their experiences, that is valuable, both for what they deal with and what works for them, but people should probably not try to fix themselves without professional help or tell other people what will fix them.
- ryanjamurphy 4y ago
  I like "IANAP." Folks should always try to engage professionals when they can. Articles on the internet help you to know what you don't know, but if you think something might be an issue for you, connect with experts on it. Re: visualization — it's a problematic trope that imagining success helps. Apparently visualizing failure, and especially the consequences of failure, can be more motivating. Andrew Huberman provides a pretty good summary of recent research on the subject.[1] [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1F7EEGPQwo&t=3573s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1F7EEGPQwo&t=3573s

Sporktacular 4y ago

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this. It's a helpful discussion.

jamesy0ung 4y ago

Error 500 for me. Looks like it's having trouble.

bardworx 4y ago

Was the presentation taken down or does it not work on mobile? Getting 500 error on embedded site & link.

iammjm 4y ago

500 Internal Error Sorry, something went wrong on our end. We've been notified of the issue and our guys are on it. Sorry for the inconvenience!

tux3 4y ago
Maybe they need to spin up a few dozen more VMs on EC2 to handle all of the couple thousand visitors a second HN is throwing at them. It's more scalable, you see, you just need to wait until the wave has passed before the autoscaler is warmed up.
- flyteuk 4y ago
  I've taken a ticket. Please let me know when it's my turn to look at the website.
  - game-of-throws 4y ago
    Your HTTP request is very important to us and will be answered in the order received.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
is_true 4y ago
https://embed.kumu.io/1feca726268dbbda0f905fb7be844e5e#anxiety-driven-procrastination https://embed.kumu.io/1feca726268dbbda0f905fb7be844e5e#anxie...

Linda703 4y ago

[dead]

beardedwizard 4y ago

See: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32123781 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32123781 as a great example of procrastination disguised as productivity

spyremeown 4y ago

We hugged this one real tight.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

closedloop129 4y ago

The previous article [1] has these paragraphs: >I have always been a bad procrastinator. I think my procrastination habits are rooted in anxiety. >As you might guess, comprehensive exams are very anxiety-provoking. So, when I first began preparing, I had a lot of trouble. I tried to draw on best practices—breaking down the task, defining the end goal, practicing mindfulness—but I was struggling. >One of the things I would use to procrastinate was Shortcuts. >Then, one day, I realized: why not build an automation that guides me through these best practices to conquer procrastination? >That’s where Mise en place came from. The name is stolen from the French culinary concept of “setting in place” everything you need before you begin cooking. >The core concept of the Mise en place shortcut is simple: lead me through a preparatory ritual to reduce anxiety, and then add some check-ins to help catch me in the act if I go too far off-task. [1] https://axle.design/automation-for-augmented-cognition-mise-en-place https://axle.design/automation-for-augmented-cognition-mise-...

user3939382 4y ago

I used to think I had a problem with procrastination. I realized what was really happening was, I’m sometimes compelled to do something I don’t want to do. In those situations I have to just talk simply and honestly with myself: I’m not doing x because I don’t want to and I accept the consequences of not doing it, or, I’m doing x even though I don’t want to. Calling it procrastination was for me actually saying a variation of the former. I don’t want to do x, but I also don’t want to accept the consequences of not doing it, so I’ll bullshit myself and pretend I’m doing it by calling it procrastination. Better to admit #1 and recognize that I may choose to change my mind and do it later. Practically it’s the same, but this way I’m being honest with myself.

wahnfrieden 4y ago
I think we focus a lot on procrastination and less on a severe and widely experienced social illness, of being controlled by others. How often are we ordered to do something by another person in our communities that we can't readily disobey, how easy is it for any of us to choose to relocate to another community, how much of the value you can generate is taken from you. Living this way strips our agency and limits/devalues our individual capability for vision. Adapting to this and considering it normal is bound to lead to other issues that we end up blaming ourselves for, because it is possible to cope and do better within the framework so it feels that any lack of progress there is an individualized failure
- muzani 4y ago
  That is how society works. I do not rear chickens. I do not behead the chicken. Sometimes I buy the chicken, forget to eat it, and worms get to it. I look in disgust at my worm-filled trash, but it's some other guy that carries the trash and the worms to an incinerator. The trash guy goes home, turns on the tv, lies in bed complaining about how there's too many choices on his streaming service but nothing to watch. But somewhere out there's a guy like me who makes sure that the trash guy gets too many choices instead of going out at night to buy pirated DVDs. That's how we change the world. On Wednesday, we will start event storming sessions on a million dollar project to get the Japanese subs and dubs to say the same thing. Trash guy wishes he was valued higher for his labor. I wish I could watch trashy shows on weekends instead of looking at procrastination flowcharts. Somewhere out there there's a CEO making a 8 digit salary from controlling people, but he wakes up at 4 AM and considers it a good day if he logs off work at 7 PM.

boredemployee 4y ago

I have a mix of low to moderate ADHD, moderate social anxiety and moderate general anxiety and have been a world class procrastinator. But having a child changed the scenario. because I had to force myself to focus in what really matters, stopped to be a perfectionist (which sometimes is a excuse to procrastinate) otherwhise I'd be in prison (for not paying my kid bills) or probably homeless.

chrsig 4y ago
having a family really reigns in the upper bound of impulsivity. it's one of the few things that can hold me back from rage quitting or help me do the things I'm avoiding
- boredemployee 4y ago
  exactly that. having a few people that depends on me is like a driving force to get shit done. we should take it with care tho, because it can be unhealthy in a lot of ways (I tend to no care with the same intensity about my health/body, dont go outside with the frequency that I should to exercise and things like that)
ryanjamurphy 4y ago
I hear you on this one. Having a kiddo is what helped me realize I needed to take my procrastination issues seriously. Still, while I thought it'd be a major driver for more responsible behaviour, it didn't give me any solutions, and I didn't magically stop. Alas, procrastinating by playing with the kiddo sure is fun!

joshgree8888 4y ago

luxuryballs 4y ago

Ok everyone that’s enough I think it’s already dead!

RedShift1 4y ago

I'll look at it tomorrow

whoomp12342 4y ago

is this satire? the page says "sorry the model could not be loaded"

wawjgreen 4y ago
the model decided to procrastinate, due to the anxiety of being put on display.

photochemsyn 4y ago

Anxiety-driven procrastination models: "What if I do a bunch of work on this project, but because I've chosen the wrong approach, I have to throw it all away and start over? What approach is the right one? Everyone on the web has conflicting opinions!" The only solution is to give yourself a time limit on background research and then, make a decision, commit and just build something. This is different from boredom-driven procrastination, which is more of the nature of: "I have this extremely tedious job to do, which I am not looking forward to, as it will use energy I could much better spend doing other things." This kind of procrastination can be levered to get other things done, however. Think of all the things you want to get done, and then do all those things as an alternative to doing that one really tedious, boring task that can then be put off until tomorrow (again).

yamrzou 4y ago

Chronic procrastination can be associated with perfectionism, in which case it is the result of fear of failure because of the self-imposed high standards. The reason for the fear of failure is that the failure is perceived as the individual failing to measure up to their ideal self, which threatens their self-worth. So procrastination is a defense mechanism, but it is a maladaptive one, because the individual ends up feeling ashamed of their procrastination.

Venkatesh10 4y ago
How do you come out of this and break the cycle? I suffer from this and haven't been able to do anything I want. Is there any steps, guide or help available? Thanks in advance.
- jack_pp 4y ago
  This was a good read for me, I'm not cured but it helps. https://arunkprasad.com/log/unlearning-perfectionism/ https://arunkprasad.com/log/unlearning-perfectionism/
- jraph 4y ago
  Worse is better. Something is better than nothing. Is it really important that it is perfect? Who really cares? What do you win by doing this imperfectly (time - to achieve other / more meaningful things, or to rest, or to spend time with people you care about, or for your hobbies) What do you lose by doing this imperfectly? Not much usually. Who will notice? Probably nobody. In the grand scheme of things, why bother anyway? What are you trying to achieve? This task perfectly, or this task is just a something you need to do to get paid so you can have a meaningful life? If people do care for a specific aspect/corner, they'll tell you anyway. They probably prefer seeing something earlier so they can give feedback, so you can achieve an even better result, counter-intuitively. Besides all this, I think I achieve this by not caring so much and not tying myself personally to much to the task. And by thinking about the outcome. Perfect often leads to worse outcome, and is relative to only you anyway because other people care about other stuff than you. Of course, it is still important to achieve the task correctly, but as perfectionist we usually need to take a step back.

tamsaraas 4y ago

People, instead of visiting a psychiatrist, come up with various explanations and explanations that have nothing to do with psychiatry. And everyone pretends to be an expert on all issues that are far from psychiatry, from the methods of psychiatry, from pills and drugs and methods of treatment. But everyone tells with great certainty that "you are procrastinating, it is caused by X." I have been procrastinating for over 10 years. And then it turned out - that this is a common depression. Which ruined a lot of life. After starting treatment with a psychiatrist and taking pills, my working capacity increased significantly. There was a lot of strength and motivation. My advice to those who feel problems with concentration, with the power to force themselves to do something, and so on. Just see a professional doctor. Come to the reception. Describe your situation. And according to the results, you will be prescribed pills that will help you, after a short period of time, significantly return what you have lost due to illness.

deleted 4y ago
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passing_through 4y ago
Hey, thanks for this! I've been considering going to the doctor for a long time, but never have. I just sent my GP an e-mail and hopefully will have an appointment set up soon.
vanjajaja1 4y ago
There is an alternate world view that says "if you're struggling to make yourself do X, its because you don't actually want to do X and you should figure out what it is you actually want to do". Going to a psychiatrist for drugs to help you do the thing you "don't actually want to do" goes against this world view.
- idontpost 4y ago
  The inability to delay gratification doesn't qualify as a world view.

t_mann 4y ago

Is this link up here for the content or for the tech? I don't get it either way - the app is nice, but it's built using another system (and I'd have lots of suggestions to improve how it renders on this site). In terms of content, it's not clear whether the network model is one taken from the published literature, or something the author created ad-hoc (feels a bit like the latter). And I don't get the point of assigning network centrality measures to topics like "facing fears" without explanation (seems like they came with the app, which was designed for a different purpose, and the author didn't know how to take them out, or didn't bother). I have a therapist friend who's shown me some very useful, evidence-based cognitive models. They do come with nice visual explanations too, and putting those into a web app has been on the back of my mind since - but they looked quite different.

ryanjamurphy 4y ago
Author here. I hear ya on the rendering. This systems sketch was by me, for me, but I published it with minimal effort just in case it might help someone else. It probably would've been better just to publish a link to the model than to embed it, though. As for the content, it's ad hoc, albeit not entirely without evidence. It's based on a bit of self-study (e.g., autoethnographic observations of my own thoughts and behaviours and passive reading of the psych literature on procrastination). The centrality measures shouldn't actually be there... Long, boring story short: they're an artifact of some systemic leverage analysis [1] I was doing on a more involved model[2]. Last, I'd love to see those cognitive models. From what I've found, we understand a great many of the pieces of procrastination, but it still takes work to put them together for any one person's situation. [1]: http://openresearch.ocadu.ca/id/eprint/2888/ http://openresearch.ocadu.ca/id/eprint/2888/ [2]: https://embed.kumu.io/fc78b8660224a57734e0bb6c52cebbd8#anxiety-driven-procrastination-v2 https://embed.kumu.io/fc78b8660224a57734e0bb6c52cebbd8#anxie...
- t_mann 4y ago
  Thanks for responding, that is some cool content! As I mentioned, I've also been thinking about putting up some related content- feel free to reach out, my email is in my profile.

codecurve 4y ago

Sorry for the Kumu 500s! I moved some critical parts of our service away from EC2 classic on Saturday morning. One of our servers was accidentally recreated with an 8GB volume instead of 1TB and the HN hug caused a process to blow through the remaining disk space with indexes. Should be back to working order now!

WhitneyLand 4y ago

Are these the best solutions? There’s got to be something else, maybe something more drastic when fighting with your self over things that life important.

jbirer 4y ago

throwaway81523 4y ago

This thing is unreadable because of the crazy interactive animation and whatever getting all messed up, at least under my browser and adblock settings. Couldn't they put it on a plain readable page? There is a link saying something about a pdf, but that gets a 500 error. Procrastination is a serious issue for some people, and its causes can be quite complicated.

user_7832 4y ago

I've said it before, and I feel need to say it again. If you don't have time to read the whole thing please skip to the summary at the end. There is anxiety, procrastination and task avoidance that everybody faces. Everybody has some things they don't like to or want to do. However, what some people facing these issues often don't realize is that if it's happening (almost) everywhere, it could be something else. Are you struggling with a solid 50% of your tasks? Maybe even 100%? That's not normal, I'm sorry to say (I'm in this boat myself for what it's worth). Don't feel bad, it's very likely not your fault. Ask yourself - is my life significantly impaired by such procrastination issues? Are you missing important things because of your "tardiness"? (I have missed a funeral... simply because I forgot. Of course I didn't want to miss it.) Perhaps lost a job, or strained friendships/marriages because of your forgetfulness? Do you struggle with long-term plans and their implementation? Perhaps have 1000s of unread emails and now no longer care, even though deep down you would have loved a zero-inbox? Do you have more unfulfilled wishes, ambitious desires and crazy fantasies but struggle to live in the confines of reality? Justifying your inability to do amazing things because "you unfortunately live in the real world" and "neither does Bob"? Well, it might be ADHD. Or autism. Or (C)PTSD. Or brain injury/trauma. Perhaps depression. Maybe generalized anxiety disorder, or OCD, or OCPD (note the extra letter). It could be a combination of those things, or perhaps neither. But if you felt some or many of those things to a strong extent, please read up more on executive dysfunction along with these conditions. Getting diagnosed, and treated - therapy, medications (esp for ADHD) - can be very helpful, to put it mildly. An analogy I like to use is that everybody pees several times a day, but if you're peeing 30 times a day you should probably see a doctor. Tldr/summary: A bunch of things can cause procrastination and anxiety/feeling bad etc like executive dysfunction ESPECIALLY if a. You're procrastinating despite not wanting to, and probably feeling crappy about it b. you also significantly struggle with time management/organization/long term planning and implementation(google its symptoms). Executive dysfunction can be due to AD(H)D, autism, brain trauma/injury, PTSD etc, not just depression/"being lazy^+", so please read up online, get informed, and get an appointment with your GP/psychiatrist. And oh, go through this before you leave: https://comorbidityguidelines.org.au/img/appendices/appendix-q.PNG https://comorbidityguidelines.org.au/img/appendices/appendix... It's estimated that anywhere from 5 to 8 to 10% of the population has ADHD (and adult ADHD is very undiagnosed), so using the metrics of my last ADHD/health awareness post^ (which had 11 points), using the 1-9-90%^& internet rule about 110 people saw that post which statistically implies around 9 people with ADHD. You might be one of them, and understanding ADHD/whatever you're experiencing is generally life-changing for the better. ^ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31878094 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31878094 ^& https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule ^+ I don't think anybody is truly lazy, there's a solid blog post (and book by the author) to read: https://humanparts.medium.com/laziness-does-not-exist-3af27e312d01 https://humanparts.medium.com/laziness-does-not-exist-3af27e...

triggercut 4y ago

I thought this was me. Many professionals told me this was me. I had a horrible off and on decade fighting it, trying to do all the things you're supposed to, feeling guilty for failing and hating myself. A decade later someone finally figured out - despite the small fortune spent on education and medical professionals - that I actually had ADHD and some learning disabilities. There was a slightly different model with previously hidden forces. Only now, knowing this, have I finally been able to effect real positive change for myself. Make sure you have the right model for you.

rr808 4y ago

Actually I read this the other day and its actually great. Despite the headline it doesn't actually say how to deal with it, only how annoying it is for other people - which actually helps me. Procrastinators eventually turn up late with their work explaining how they were toiling all night to get it done and expecting gratitude and sympathy for their incredible dedication. Of course, everyone else knows that this self-sacrifice was because the person concerned had been scrolling through TikTok videos and binge-watching Love Island UK for the previous two weeks when they were supposed to be getting it done. There is no chance to review the work, no time for a run through, and half-baked ideas full of mistakes are presented. We're supposed to be grateful for this. Yes, everyone is late on occasion, but if it happens: Every. Single. Freaking. Time. Then there's a problem. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/paul-catmur-how-to-deal-with-procrastination-read-this-immediately/TLPACJGUBPTWEJRP24JGNHPH6A/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/paul-catmur-how-to-deal-...

Quikinterp 4y ago

I struggle with being lazy in all aspects of my life. I have ADHD and anxiety. Does anyone know of where I should start looking to lower my procrastination and laziness? It doesn't feel like I'm lazy, because I also don't get things done that I WANT to do. I simply do not know why I don't get things done. I don't know if I'm lazy or paralyzed by fear. Trying new things is always hard for me

yomkippur 4y ago
For me its the overwhelming amount of decision making that prevents me. Imagine for a moment you have to make decisions that impact a lot of people and you can't just do stuff on a whim. Under this model, you would delay an important decision to the very last possible moment. In addition as engineers, it can feel like you are walking in circles when examining your solution. It's not just writing code that is the issue, its dealing with these valleys and troughs of emotion that comes with undertaking work. Even labor jobs require a certain level of internal rally cry if it makes sense. It's even more tougher that require constant mental attention and analysis. Which is why the financial buy-side for me was too much. The anxiety alone, the uncertainty aspect of it would make it very tough to execute, especially because there are few variables that is completely out of your control. Many burn out and many only end up collecting the management fee. Few that make it seem to not too sound either.
ttul 4y ago
Have you considered trialing medication? ADHD medication is among the most effective brain-targeted medication known to medical science. Both methylphenidate and amphetamine-based drugs have a 90% effectiveness rate.
- Quikinterp 4y ago
  I have and I do use it, and it helps me a lot. But it still feels like there's an underlying laziness to myself. Maybe I should try other medication because I sort of stuck with the first one I tried, and only trialed the doses after that
  - 4y ago

havblue 4y ago

I notice an odd thing when I want to procrastinate/am feeling overwhelmed: I tend to get tired and fall asleep. Which I guess means I'm not making progress but trying to will my brain to pay attention, so it takes a break. Anyone have advice for this?

ryanjamurphy 4y ago
Maybe you're experiencing the stage of emotional disregulation beyond fight or flight: freeze.[1] I have been trying to actually take a real break when I get distressed. Say you've been procrastinating for an hour, and you only have another hour before you need to stop for the day. In the moment, it feels like you can't "waste" fifteen minutes on a break because you just wasted an hour. Truth is, though, it's better to spend fifteen minutes doing something to calm the emotions down and then get a productive 45 minutes in. It takes practice, but like all good habits, the benefits compound over time. [1]: I really like Sarah Schlote's work explaining interoception of stress and emotional regulation. https://equusoma.com/the-ponyvagal-theory-updates-to-the-neuroception-curve/ https://equusoma.com/the-ponyvagal-theory-updates-to-the-neu...

teekert 4y ago

I procrastinate a lot. But when I find an enjoyable, challenging task I go very fast and can’t seem to stop. I’ve just been honest at work about it and very consciously take tasks that seem exciting. It works well for me. Tbh I really procrastinate when I either don’t understand the reason for doing something or when I do and find it bs. So it always helps to spend some time trying to understand a task and subsequently to articulate why I think the task should either not exist or be addressed differently. Sometimes I can get away with not doing the boring thing.

ryanjamurphy 4y ago

Hi HN! Exciting to see this model get some attention. Admittedly, it is mostly a sketch. I created this model in self-study but published it just in case it might help someone else. As Brené Brown says, I'm trying to get it right, not to be right. Still, I think there's a few key insights here: 1. As other replies have suggested, this model might not fit you. Procrastination is an umbrella term that describes a variety of issues, and sometimes those issues interlock! If you're struggling to match intention with action, find your model. Also, talk to a counsellor. They really help. 2. Systems sketching — in combination with self-study of our thoughts and behaviours — is a really interesting way to understand our own cognitive-behavioural problems. In my case, I sketched this model after realizing for the first time that anxiety might play a role in my procrastination behaviours. It helped me see how powerful that role really was. After creating this model at the beginning of 2022, I engaged a counsellor and have been doing a lot more self-study. A work-in-progress on a far more involved (and idiosyncratic) model is available here: https://embed.kumu.io/fc78b8660224a57734e0bb6c52cebbd8 https://embed.kumu.io/fc78b8660224a57734e0bb6c52cebbd8 (Oddly enough, this was shared about 24 hours after I finished a research paper on all this work. I'll share that via my blog if and when it gets accepted by the destination.) Thanks for a rich discussion — and thanks Kumu team for addressing the traffic spike issues.

ryanjamurphy 4y ago
Oh, I forgot to add: Tim Pychyl's work and podcast was such an essential resource for me as I started to take my procrastination issues more seriously.[1] Tim's a procrastination researcher out of the University of Ottawa, I think. The podcast does a fantastic job of making current research on procrastination accessible and engaging. [1]: https://www.procrastination.ca https://www.procrastination.ca
divan 4y ago
Hey! How did you choose Kumu? I'm currently exploring a landscape of SD tools, and Kumu seems both cool and unusual, but it's not clear if it can be used a replacements for Stella Architect, which is prohibitevely expensive. Does it have features like feedback loop analysis, for example?

vegesm 4y ago

This rings so true with me. I have a side project [1] that I try to promote and it always feels hard. Where do I start? Should I post comments in random subreddits? Should I write blog posts that may nobody read in the end? Start doing ads? I think having the multiple options kinda freezes me and it is so hard to start doing something. [1] https://androidcalculator.com/ https://androidcalculator.com/

bergenty 4y ago

I don’t procrastinate. I just don’t want to do things I’d rather not do. Procrastinate is such a “life is work” term it’s almost propaganda.

ryanjamurphy 4y ago
This is a fine perspective to have, but it is also possible to procrastinate on things you do want to do. That's what I have been trying to personally address, anyway.

agumonkey 4y ago

I'm thinking about a combinatorial approach to fight procrastination. Look at possibilities, subconfiguration, see what is easiest to try, order them in the cheapest way, and then just try until there's no more options. It removes the liability aspect a bit.

chkaloon 4y ago

I get anxious just looking at all those circles, boxes and arrows.

edub 4y ago

re: "mental imagery" (imagine yourself after the work has happened) - In my experience imagining myself after the work has happened is a net negative. Once I perform the act of imagining the task/project complete, I receive the dopamine reward of completing the project, and no longer have an interest in actually doing the work. I derive the most satisfaction in conquering a very complicated problem, and if I get it all figured out in my head, then I've got what I need out of it and doing all the actual implementation doesn't bring any new satisfaction to me, so I tend to then move on to the next complicated problem I can work through in my head. When I have a team of developers working for me, the project moves forward under their efforts and something really cool comes to fruition, but when I'm solo, the project stops once I've figured out the solution. BTW - people are quick to preface with IANAL (109,000 google results), but I think it is equally important for people to start saying IANAP (I am not a psychiatrist, 633 google results). Offering armchair psychiatric advice seems like the risks are greater than armchair legal advice, because people's lives are on the line. See what /u/tamsaraas said in this thread, it is valuable. Time to normalize IANAP. IANAP - but being exposed to all the discussion on HN about procrastination has helped me realize that I might suffer from executive dysfunction and have ADHD. But I'm seeking therapy to get a proper diagnosis and treatment for it. I appreciate people sharing their experiences, that is valuable, both for what they deal with and what works for them, but people should probably not try to fix themselves without professional help or tell other people what will fix them.

ryanjamurphy 4y ago
I like "IANAP." Folks should always try to engage professionals when they can. Articles on the internet help you to know what you don't know, but if you think something might be an issue for you, connect with experts on it. Re: visualization — it's a problematic trope that imagining success helps. Apparently visualizing failure, and especially the consequences of failure, can be more motivating. Andrew Huberman provides a pretty good summary of recent research on the subject.[1] [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1F7EEGPQwo&t=3573s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1F7EEGPQwo&t=3573s