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I guess you haven’t heard about what happened to Jack Ma recently

by holografix 4y ago

cowmoo728 4y ago
I see it as they can't control technology and academia without stifling it in the process
- chii 4y ago
  I suspect that they will "merely" need to instill enough propaganda and "brainwashing" politically onto academia such that those who have the knowledge and skill would not go against the CCP. This effectively restricts the talent pool - those who are smart are likely able to see thru any propaganda. And those that are smart are also more capable of emigrating overseas where you make more money anyway. So it's not about stifling, but more about slowness. But with a large enough population, even a smaller % of talent is still a huge number.
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    > This effectively restricts the talent pool - those who are smart are likely able to see thru any propaganda. This is rarely true. People can be, and often are, extremely smart in one field and idiots in others. The fact that they think otherwise is often part of the problem. Especially since propaganda is often layered - everyone knows something is propaganda, but that doesn't help you understand the truth, and there is often subtler propaganda that guides those who see the blatant propaganda to the "right truth".
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  The weakest link is the actual application of a discovery in real life. Brilliant scientists can be apolitical and so isolated from the rest of the society that they don't even realize what's going on. Notably, the Soviet Union produced a lot of excellent results in mathematics and physics. But when it comes to designing and selling actual products based on the theoretical discoveries, the inefficiency, stupidity and mendacity inherent in the authoritarian systems really comes to the fore and can't be dodged.
  - nobodyandproud 4y ago
    That reminded me of Archimedes: https://datatorch.com/life/Archimedes_faced_death_with_courage https://datatorch.com/life/Archimedes_faced_death_with_coura...
TeeMassive 4y ago
Jack Ma was a figurehead and didn't know anything about tech (see his interview with Musk). Musk has a very deep understanding of tech of his companies (at least for a CEO), so are most other American tech CEOs. As was pointed out, you can't siphon away tech like you can do with oil and other commodities without making things stop working.
- chaostheory 4y ago
  Maybe Zhang Yiming and Colin Huang are better examples? If not, there are plenty more. The fact is that extreme centralized economic planning is the enemy of innovation.
  - tsimionescu 4y ago
    This is a common legend, but it's hard to accept. China is way more innovative than much of Europe for example. The USSR was actually an extremely innovative place as well. Also, huge corporations are themselves extremely centrally planned, and that is where much of their strengths lie. There's a reason why Apple was able to capitalize on the smartphone, and it wasn't some market of suppliers. The problem with centralized planning is that it tends to ignore many local concerns, often with disastrous consequences, especially when leaders start to ignore any feedback from below in their central planning. This has caused the downfall of innumerable companies in various markets, but there is usually another company to take their place. When used by countries, it causes famines and other avoidable disasters, as happened in much of the USSR and China, especially under Mao's monstrous regime. But when done right, as it was in China after the 90s and before the Pooh, it has also caused the single biggest reduction in poverty in world history, measured by number of people.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - petre 4y ago
      > China is way more innovative than much of Europe for example Of course they are, having built upon stolen EU and US tech and having trained their people in the West. But they learn fast and incrementally improve those designs. The difference is the Russians had their very own designs. Even in electronics, their concepts are fundamentally different from western concepts.
petre 4y ago
Jack Ma is just one example. The CCP went after celebrities more recently. No individual or organisation in China should be allowed to be more popular (or powerful) than the CCP in their view. That's why they went after Falun Gong decades ago - it had more practitioners than the CCP had members.
- philliphaydon 4y ago
  Ah have to be careful mentioning Falun Gong now. No one seems to understand that until the CCP crackdown it was a harmless group of old people. And after the CCP got worried by the growing numbers that all of a sudden they are a terrorist organization with a bad history and all this bad stuff they believe pops up.
  - petre 4y ago
    It's just propaganda. The terrorist organisation is the CCP themselves, they're the ones who ordered the terrorization, imprisonment and torture of Falun Gong practitioners and allowed the proliferation of organ harvesting. They're probably doing the same with Uyghurs.

I guess you haven’t heard about what happened to Jack Ma recently

cowmoo728 4y ago

I see it as they can't control technology and academia without stifling it in the process

chii 4y ago
I suspect that they will "merely" need to instill enough propaganda and "brainwashing" politically onto academia such that those who have the knowledge and skill would not go against the CCP. This effectively restricts the talent pool - those who are smart are likely able to see thru any propaganda. And those that are smart are also more capable of emigrating overseas where you make more money anyway. So it's not about stifling, but more about slowness. But with a large enough population, even a smaller % of talent is still a huge number.
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  > This effectively restricts the talent pool - those who are smart are likely able to see thru any propaganda. This is rarely true. People can be, and often are, extremely smart in one field and idiots in others. The fact that they think otherwise is often part of the problem. Especially since propaganda is often layered - everyone knows something is propaganda, but that doesn't help you understand the truth, and there is often subtler propaganda that guides those who see the blatant propaganda to the "right truth".
inglor_cz 4y ago
The weakest link is the actual application of a discovery in real life. Brilliant scientists can be apolitical and so isolated from the rest of the society that they don't even realize what's going on. Notably, the Soviet Union produced a lot of excellent results in mathematics and physics. But when it comes to designing and selling actual products based on the theoretical discoveries, the inefficiency, stupidity and mendacity inherent in the authoritarian systems really comes to the fore and can't be dodged.
- nobodyandproud 4y ago
  That reminded me of Archimedes: https://datatorch.com/life/Archimedes_faced_death_with_courage https://datatorch.com/life/Archimedes_faced_death_with_coura...

TeeMassive 4y ago

Jack Ma was a figurehead and didn't know anything about tech (see his interview with Musk). Musk has a very deep understanding of tech of his companies (at least for a CEO), so are most other American tech CEOs. As was pointed out, you can't siphon away tech like you can do with oil and other commodities without making things stop working.

chaostheory 4y ago
Maybe Zhang Yiming and Colin Huang are better examples? If not, there are plenty more. The fact is that extreme centralized economic planning is the enemy of innovation.
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  This is a common legend, but it's hard to accept. China is way more innovative than much of Europe for example. The USSR was actually an extremely innovative place as well. Also, huge corporations are themselves extremely centrally planned, and that is where much of their strengths lie. There's a reason why Apple was able to capitalize on the smartphone, and it wasn't some market of suppliers. The problem with centralized planning is that it tends to ignore many local concerns, often with disastrous consequences, especially when leaders start to ignore any feedback from below in their central planning. This has caused the downfall of innumerable companies in various markets, but there is usually another company to take their place. When used by countries, it causes famines and other avoidable disasters, as happened in much of the USSR and China, especially under Mao's monstrous regime. But when done right, as it was in China after the 90s and before the Pooh, it has also caused the single biggest reduction in poverty in world history, measured by number of people.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - petre 4y ago
    > China is way more innovative than much of Europe for example Of course they are, having built upon stolen EU and US tech and having trained their people in the West. But they learn fast and incrementally improve those designs. The difference is the Russians had their very own designs. Even in electronics, their concepts are fundamentally different from western concepts.

petre 4y ago

Jack Ma is just one example. The CCP went after celebrities more recently. No individual or organisation in China should be allowed to be more popular (or powerful) than the CCP in their view. That's why they went after Falun Gong decades ago - it had more practitioners than the CCP had members.

philliphaydon 4y ago
Ah have to be careful mentioning Falun Gong now. No one seems to understand that until the CCP crackdown it was a harmless group of old people. And after the CCP got worried by the growing numbers that all of a sudden they are a terrorist organization with a bad history and all this bad stuff they believe pops up.
- petre 4y ago
  It's just propaganda. The terrorist organisation is the CCP themselves, they're the ones who ordered the terrorization, imprisonment and torture of Falun Gong practitioners and allowed the proliferation of organ harvesting. They're probably doing the same with Uyghurs.