4 ms·

Policing in the US is shit in part because other social services are under developed that the police have to double for everything. Frankly it’s crisis too beca

Policing in the US is shit in part because other social services are under developed that the police have to double for everything. Frankly it’s crisis too because doing social services and policing is a shit job that isn’t going to attract the best and brightest. Add to that it’s a job for Iraq and Afghanistan vets probably suffering from their share of PTSD, and you get a pretty volatile combo

pessimizer 4y ago
> policing is a shit job that isn’t going to attract the best and brightest. It's not that it's a shit job, it's that it's a job that requires you to commit reprehensible acts, so good people can't join in good conscience. If our laws, law enforcement methods and justice system weren't horrifying, cops would be better, no matter how shit the pay or demanding the expectations.
- parineum 4y ago
  >it's a job that requires you to commit reprehensible acts It absolutely does not require that. > If our laws, law enforcement methods...weren't horrifying Give some examples and provide some practical solutions.
  - staticman2 4y ago
    I believe throwing people in jail for getting high is a reprehensible act, especially when you consider what it does to their family members, so I believe being a police officer requires you to commit reprehensible acts. Your mileage may vary.
    - nicoburns 4y ago
      > I believe throwing people in jail for getting high is a reprehensible act Are you actually required to do that as a police officer? Would it not be up to the discretion of the officer as to whether it was in the public interest to make an arrest or not? Here in the UK it would be pretty unusual for someone to be arrested for getting high unless they were causing a public nuisance, property damage, or similar.
      - bombcar 4y ago
        This is the case, and if it were as common as described, there would be many many examples available. The cops are likely not even to roll out for "someone getting high" unless they're really bored or something else is happening.
        ezrast 4y ago
        Tens of thousands of people in the USA are currently incarcerated for possession.
        parineum 4y ago
        And if you become a cop, you can choose not to arrest those people.
        staticman2 4y ago
        Cops don't have to follow orders from a chain of command? They get to still be cops after refusing to follow orders from management?
KennyBlanken 4y ago
The reason social services are underdeveloped is because police spending has swollen to consume massive portions of municipal, state, and federal budgets. This is thanks to decades of conservative politicians beating the drums of "wasteful" welfare spending and "fighting crime by spending more on police." Forty percent of Uvalde's budget was going to the police - $4.3M for 15,000 residents, or $2900/person. That doesn't include the half a million dollars for their school police force. New York City has a budget of about $100BN, and $11BN goes to NYPD - $1300 for every single person in the city.
- goldenkey 4y ago
  Wow, that's insanity. Have you ever thought about making a simple single page app showing comparative stats? I'm curious how other major cities like LA and Chicago stack up.
- dionidium 4y ago
  I think this characterization is mostly wrong on the facts. First of all, U.S. spending on police is pretty typical, relative to our peers (as a percentage of GDP): https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F4e89f4a9-a273-43ae-a7fd-397a57a50c81_968x1464.png https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_pr... Second, spending on police has actually been trending down for quite some time: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=Q7WX https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=Q7WX And the number of officers per capita has remained remarkably stable over time (contra suggestions that the number of police has risen dramatically). See Table 1 in this PDF: https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/nsleed.pdf https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/nsleed.pdf Third, we spend much more on schools than on police: https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa8d14105-0bf8-485d-83fe-f5b5707018a6_1220x1020.png https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_pr... Despite the prevalence of memes to the contrary: https://twitter.com/RCAFDM/status/1532739121562656770?s=20&t=k1P2Bd28yrXjWGp7Agjnng https://twitter.com/RCAFDM/status/1532739121562656770?s=20&t... https://twitter.com/CharlesFLehman/status/1532700442286759937 https://twitter.com/CharlesFLehman/status/153270044228675993... Fourth, because spending in the U.S. is split amongst federal, state, and local governments, looking purely at local budgets is often more obfuscatory than explanatory. If we look at combined state and local spending, the picture looks quite a bit more reasonable: https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/2020-06/state_local_chart.png https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/2020-06/state_loca... That graph in words: > Overall, police spending was 4 percent of state and local direct general expenditures in 2017. (This data included federal transfers; if we look at just own-source funds, police spending was 5 percent of state and local expenditures.) > This is far less than what state and local governments spent on public welfare (mostly Medicaid in the Census accounting) and K–12 education, but more than many other services, including housing and community development (and others not listed on the chart). Source: https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/what-police-spending-data-can-and-cannot-explain-amid-calls-defund-police https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/what-police-spending-data-c... Obviously people can disagree about how much we should spend and on what, but, generally, the U.S. spends a pretty typical amount on police, that amount is significantly less than on various other social services, and the amount has largely not been growing.
peter303 4y ago
Denver 911 now sends out social services as first responder if judged non-life threatening. For example a common 911 call asksfora ride to health service.
peter303 4y ago
Even our libraries do social services now. Libraries have become street people congregation places, especially in bad weather. Ours (Denver) has security force of 30 to escort out misbehaving patrons. They also have a couple social workers that step in when helping a patron makes more sense than expulsion.

pessimizer 4y ago

> policing is a shit job that isn’t going to attract the best and brightest. It's not that it's a shit job, it's that it's a job that requires you to commit reprehensible acts, so good people can't join in good conscience. If our laws, law enforcement methods and justice system weren't horrifying, cops would be better, no matter how shit the pay or demanding the expectations.

parineum 4y ago
>it's a job that requires you to commit reprehensible acts It absolutely does not require that. > If our laws, law enforcement methods...weren't horrifying Give some examples and provide some practical solutions.
- staticman2 4y ago
  I believe throwing people in jail for getting high is a reprehensible act, especially when you consider what it does to their family members, so I believe being a police officer requires you to commit reprehensible acts. Your mileage may vary.
  - nicoburns 4y ago
    > I believe throwing people in jail for getting high is a reprehensible act Are you actually required to do that as a police officer? Would it not be up to the discretion of the officer as to whether it was in the public interest to make an arrest or not? Here in the UK it would be pretty unusual for someone to be arrested for getting high unless they were causing a public nuisance, property damage, or similar.
    - bombcar 4y ago
      This is the case, and if it were as common as described, there would be many many examples available. The cops are likely not even to roll out for "someone getting high" unless they're really bored or something else is happening.
      - ezrast 4y ago
        Tens of thousands of people in the USA are currently incarcerated for possession.
        parineum 4y ago
        And if you become a cop, you can choose not to arrest those people.
        staticman2 4y ago
        Cops don't have to follow orders from a chain of command? They get to still be cops after refusing to follow orders from management?

KennyBlanken 4y ago

The reason social services are underdeveloped is because police spending has swollen to consume massive portions of municipal, state, and federal budgets. This is thanks to decades of conservative politicians beating the drums of "wasteful" welfare spending and "fighting crime by spending more on police." Forty percent of Uvalde's budget was going to the police - $4.3M for 15,000 residents, or $2900/person. That doesn't include the half a million dollars for their school police force. New York City has a budget of about $100BN, and $11BN goes to NYPD - $1300 for every single person in the city.

goldenkey 4y ago
Wow, that's insanity. Have you ever thought about making a simple single page app showing comparative stats? I'm curious how other major cities like LA and Chicago stack up.
dionidium 4y ago
I think this characterization is mostly wrong on the facts. First of all, U.S. spending on police is pretty typical, relative to our peers (as a percentage of GDP): https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F4e89f4a9-a273-43ae-a7fd-397a57a50c81_968x1464.png https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_pr... Second, spending on police has actually been trending down for quite some time: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=Q7WX https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=Q7WX And the number of officers per capita has remained remarkably stable over time (contra suggestions that the number of police has risen dramatically). See Table 1 in this PDF: https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/nsleed.pdf https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/nsleed.pdf Third, we spend much more on schools than on police: https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2Fa8d14105-0bf8-485d-83fe-f5b5707018a6_1220x1020.png https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_pr... Despite the prevalence of memes to the contrary: https://twitter.com/RCAFDM/status/1532739121562656770?s=20&t=k1P2Bd28yrXjWGp7Agjnng https://twitter.com/RCAFDM/status/1532739121562656770?s=20&t... https://twitter.com/CharlesFLehman/status/1532700442286759937 https://twitter.com/CharlesFLehman/status/153270044228675993... Fourth, because spending in the U.S. is split amongst federal, state, and local governments, looking purely at local budgets is often more obfuscatory than explanatory. If we look at combined state and local spending, the picture looks quite a bit more reasonable: https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/2020-06/state_local_chart.png https://www.urban.org/sites/default/files/2020-06/state_loca... That graph in words: > Overall, police spending was 4 percent of state and local direct general expenditures in 2017. (This data included federal transfers; if we look at just own-source funds, police spending was 5 percent of state and local expenditures.) > This is far less than what state and local governments spent on public welfare (mostly Medicaid in the Census accounting) and K–12 education, but more than many other services, including housing and community development (and others not listed on the chart). Source: https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/what-police-spending-data-can-and-cannot-explain-amid-calls-defund-police https://www.urban.org/urban-wire/what-police-spending-data-c... Obviously people can disagree about how much we should spend and on what, but, generally, the U.S. spends a pretty typical amount on police, that amount is significantly less than on various other social services, and the amount has largely not been growing.

peter303 4y ago

Denver 911 now sends out social services as first responder if judged non-life threatening. For example a common 911 call asksfora ride to health service.

peter303 4y ago

Even our libraries do social services now. Libraries have become street people congregation places, especially in bad weather. Ours (Denver) has security force of 30 to escort out misbehaving patrons. They also have a couple social workers that step in when helping a patron makes more sense than expulsion.