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I have experience in this field: I ran technology for one of the only hotlines in the US that didn't engage in non-consensual active rescue [0] [1]. I've writte

by cmg 4y ago

I have experience in this field: I ran technology for one of the only hotlines in the US that didn't engage in non-consensual active rescue [0] [1]. I've written about this a little on this site in the past, when Crisis Text Line was caught sharing data. Many, if not most, of these places give the operator full access to your phone number and whatever geolocation data they can get based on that. They also have policies where the operator is allowed/encouraged to call emergency services on you without your ongoing consent, or even without telling you. In my experience talking with others who have been affected by those kinds of policies, this can lead to police breaking down your door while you're naked and crying, or worse. A person in deep crisis is not likely to respond well to armed officers showing up, as the police are more likely to come into the situation looking for conflict. Sometimes, you can call a local dispatch and just get medical services, or maybe a fire department sent first. But that's entirely up to the discretion of the dispatcher and local protocol. There's also a relatively common experience I've heard where people who aren't actively suicidal call these lines, and the operator (I won't say counselor) is completely dismissive: "if you're not going to hurt yourself, what do you want me to do?" Not to mention the stories I've heard where call centers just have passwords for their internal systems on sticky notes laying around on monitors... The general field is so bleak that some other folks with peer support experience and I have started a nonprofit where one of the things we're doing is building open-source software that will let anyone create their own support line. Security and privacy are our primary concerns, ensuring that operators and callers never see each other's numbers or any kind of information. [0] non-consensual active rescue is the practice of calling emergency services on someone without their OK [1] The line was Trans Lifeline, which I cannot recommend supporting for other reasons at this point

Kye 4y ago
I see people recommend Trans Lifeline all the time. Are you able to offer specifics on this?
- cmg 4y ago
  I'm hesitant to answer this because a lot of what I'd have to say can't be corroborated except for people who work or worked there. I'll summarize, with the understanding that I left a month after the 2020 election (I gave my notice in October 2020 and stayed on to get the organization through potential security issues around the election). - A culture of internal anti-Blackness. During the uprising of 2020, staff and volunteers wanted the leadership team to address real issues with race inside the organization. As a member of the leadership team at the Director level, I pushed for many of the staff-led changes, but most of the team wanted to just talk about things instead of implementing policies. - I had a bug in some software I wrote - applications for a service were supposed to be distributed based on race. A few more white people than they wanted got through. I fixed the bug immediately (it was a concurrency issue), explained it, and was met with absolute hostility - shouted at in meetings, labeled a white supremacist and removed from leadership. A plan was developed to have mediation, but after months nothing happened. - From what I understand, they have basically gotten rid of their QA program that would review calls to make sure operators are properly trained and handling calls appropriately. - A former staff member went missing during a mental health crisis. They said they were going to provide FMLA but fired her instead, leaving her partner and children without any financial support. - Piss-poor answer rate. After they fired their Hotline Program Director last year, basically no one stepped up to run the hotline. Folks I've heard from have reported that many volunteers (the backbone of the hotline department) left, new volunteers weren't being processed properly.
  - heartbreak 4y ago
    And your new role is as an editorial board member for CovertAction Magazine? https://twitter.com/covertactionmag?s=21&t=zbpg0lQWdYJ70GbhqASSOQ https://twitter.com/covertactionmag?s=21&t=zbpg0lQWdYJ70Gbhq...
    - cmg 4y ago
      I'm on the EB but I don't get paid for that. Why?
      - heartbreak 4y ago
        Because I know pro-Russian propaganda when I see it.
        marvin 4y ago
        Can you provide more details on what you're thinking here?
        shrimp_emoji 4y ago
        The Kremlin's following the strategy of "help America tear itself apart" by fomenting racial and political divisions, so maybe the race bit set their sensors off. I think the sensitivity should be decreased though. :p
        morelisp 4y ago
        "Russian-Hating Dream of Brzezinski Clan Nears Fulfillment as Poland Agrees to Host Permanent U.S. Base and Turn Baltic Sea into NATO Lake" seems, uh, self-explanatory.
        cmg 4y ago
        I’m not particularly interested in having to defend myself on this forum, on a completely unrelated post. heartbreak will likely respond, and that’s fine, but it’s very interesting that they decided to look into my (public) associations here.
jamiek88 4y ago
> if you're not going to hurt yourself, what do you want me to do?" My brother is going through some stuff and got this exact response in the UK. If you aren’t immediately about to harm yourself there’s basically no state provided resources.
- cmg 4y ago
  I'm so sorry to hear about your brother, Jamie. I hope he can find the support he needs. This is too common of a story.
freeflight 4y ago
> the police are more likely to come into the situation looking for conflict "We don't have time for this" [0] comes to mind. [0] https://www.insider.com/cop-said-i-dont-have-time-shooting-keith-vidal-2020-11 https://www.insider.com/cop-said-i-dont-have-time-shooting-k...
- fdhfdjkfhdkj 4y ago
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
> There's also a relatively common experience I've heard where people who aren't actively suicidal call these lines, and the operator (I won't say counselor) is completely dismissive: "if you're not going to hurt yourself, what do you want me to do?" That would get you dismissed from any reasonably-run suicide hotline program ASAP. I have a friend who volunteers for a suicide hotline program here in the US. He says it's actually well run and they keep close tabs on the volunteers. Everyone who volunteers is doing it because they care. It wouldn't make sense for someone to volunteer for such a program just to be dismissive and rude to people who call in. However, I could see this happening at poorly-managed programs that use low-paid employees without proper training and supervision.
- cmg 4y ago
  I’m glad to hear that. There is a place for these hotlines and I have a lot of respect for the folks who volunteer at them - I hope it didn’t come off differently. My comments weren’t meant to be blanket “everything is like this” but rather pointing out trends & common experiences.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
zahma 4y ago
> Many, if not most, of these places give the operator full access to your phone number and whatever geolocation data they can get based on that. They also have policies where the operator is allowed/encouraged to call emergency services on you without your ongoing consent, or even without telling you. In my experience talking with others who have been affected by those kinds of policies, this can lead to police breaking down your door while you're naked and crying, or worse. A person in deep crisis is not likely to respond well to armed officers showing up, as the police are more likely to come into the situation looking for conflict. Hi, CTL volunteer here. I have some gripes with a few of your assertions. It's true that CTL was caught sharing data. They have retracted that policy, and it remains unclear to me how much of the data was being shared to which level of granularity. Since then, data can be manually deleted after a conversation is concluded. I have seen this happen, and I welcome you to try again if you would like to test the system. That is welcomed. Each counselor is required to treat each texter with empathy and the gravity that a mental health crisis requires. I do not know of anyone on the platform who would disparage a texter because his/her/their crisis isn't significant enough. If you text CTL, it is for a reason, and we want to help you through that moment no matter your background. Another important distinction is that we are trained to risk assess each and every texter, irrespective of our intuition about their mental state. That means I treat someone testing the system like I would someone who has been flagged as an imminent suicide risk. Supervisors monitor this evolution of the conversation closely. The assessment is important because ultimately the decision to call emergency services comes after that rigorous assessment of the person's suicidal ideation, followed by their plan and access to means, as well as their timeline. If all those criteria are met, I contact my supervisor, and then we work on separation from means. If those criteria are not met, we continue the conversation accordingly. I have personally walked numerous people back from the edge simply by talking to them and hearing them out; often times, texters deemed imminent risks are capable of staying safe that night after we have come up with a safety plan for them together. Calling EMS is truly a last resort and not an attempt to cast off responsibility. In the cases when we do call emergency services, it is after we have exhausted all other options. It should be noted that access to geolocation is strictly limited to these supervisors, and in all likelihood is limited to a texter's phone number alone. It's not like they have a backdoor into AT&T, and the supervisor must make a call to emergency services directly. From what I can tell, very little information is given back to CTL. On occasion, I can see a timeline that EMS was dispatched but rarely do I ever learn about the outcome. The success of the platform is that we can work with people to find them their own solutions. CTL was not a viable intermediary for calling 911. All in all, I recommend other readers to treat the post above with a grain of salt. Please be aware that platforms such as CTL are frequently volunteer-staffed, and, while we all do receive 20 hours of mandatory training, we aren't psychologists and we are not allowed to act in a medical capacity in the slightest. Each counselor is expected to work within a strict purview with clear objectives. Lots of well-intentioned people are there for whoever needs support. As far as volunteering goes, this is some of the most emotionally-involved I've ever had to do, and it pains me to read reviews of CTL that paint it is a data profiteering lab of pseudo-psychologists and dismissive blowhards. Lastly, should data privacy be a cornerstone to these services? Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. But I am glad that this service exists, and we should not miss the forest for the trees. Many of our colleagues, friends, relatives, and countrywomen are suffering right now more than ever. We should not profit on their misery, but we have an opportunity to connect with them and change their lives. To my mind, that is worth every byte of data.
sterlind 4y ago
what's the deal with Trans Lifeline? I had their number saved when I was transitioning and had a lot of depression going on from bullying and family not accepting. are they not a good resource for us? edit: why am I being downvoted?
- cmg 4y ago
  I explained a little elsewhere in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32121332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32121332
  - sterlind 4y ago
    thank you for explaining. it's so unfortunate that our community doesn't seem to organize effectively to take care of ourselves. I've seen similar issues in the spaces I've volunteered for as well. infighting, flakiness and a lack of effective organization. :/
deleted 4y ago
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deleted 4y ago
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by cmg 4y ago

Kye 4y ago

I see people recommend Trans Lifeline all the time. Are you able to offer specifics on this?

cmg 4y ago
I'm hesitant to answer this because a lot of what I'd have to say can't be corroborated except for people who work or worked there. I'll summarize, with the understanding that I left a month after the 2020 election (I gave my notice in October 2020 and stayed on to get the organization through potential security issues around the election). - A culture of internal anti-Blackness. During the uprising of 2020, staff and volunteers wanted the leadership team to address real issues with race inside the organization. As a member of the leadership team at the Director level, I pushed for many of the staff-led changes, but most of the team wanted to just talk about things instead of implementing policies. - I had a bug in some software I wrote - applications for a service were supposed to be distributed based on race. A few more white people than they wanted got through. I fixed the bug immediately (it was a concurrency issue), explained it, and was met with absolute hostility - shouted at in meetings, labeled a white supremacist and removed from leadership. A plan was developed to have mediation, but after months nothing happened. - From what I understand, they have basically gotten rid of their QA program that would review calls to make sure operators are properly trained and handling calls appropriately. - A former staff member went missing during a mental health crisis. They said they were going to provide FMLA but fired her instead, leaving her partner and children without any financial support. - Piss-poor answer rate. After they fired their Hotline Program Director last year, basically no one stepped up to run the hotline. Folks I've heard from have reported that many volunteers (the backbone of the hotline department) left, new volunteers weren't being processed properly.
- heartbreak 4y ago
  And your new role is as an editorial board member for CovertAction Magazine? https://twitter.com/covertactionmag?s=21&t=zbpg0lQWdYJ70GbhqASSOQ https://twitter.com/covertactionmag?s=21&t=zbpg0lQWdYJ70Gbhq...
  - cmg 4y ago
    I'm on the EB but I don't get paid for that. Why?
    - heartbreak 4y ago
      Because I know pro-Russian propaganda when I see it.
      - marvin 4y ago
        Can you provide more details on what you're thinking here?
        shrimp_emoji 4y ago
        The Kremlin's following the strategy of "help America tear itself apart" by fomenting racial and political divisions, so maybe the race bit set their sensors off. I think the sensitivity should be decreased though. :p
        morelisp 4y ago
        "Russian-Hating Dream of Brzezinski Clan Nears Fulfillment as Poland Agrees to Host Permanent U.S. Base and Turn Baltic Sea into NATO Lake" seems, uh, self-explanatory.
        cmg 4y ago
        I’m not particularly interested in having to defend myself on this forum, on a completely unrelated post. heartbreak will likely respond, and that’s fine, but it’s very interesting that they decided to look into my (public) associations here.

jamiek88 4y ago

> if you're not going to hurt yourself, what do you want me to do?" My brother is going through some stuff and got this exact response in the UK. If you aren’t immediately about to harm yourself there’s basically no state provided resources.

cmg 4y ago
I'm so sorry to hear about your brother, Jamie. I hope he can find the support he needs. This is too common of a story.

freeflight 4y ago

> the police are more likely to come into the situation looking for conflict "We don't have time for this" [0] comes to mind. [0] https://www.insider.com/cop-said-i-dont-have-time-shooting-keith-vidal-2020-11 https://www.insider.com/cop-said-i-dont-have-time-shooting-k...

fdhfdjkfhdkj 4y ago

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

> There's also a relatively common experience I've heard where people who aren't actively suicidal call these lines, and the operator (I won't say counselor) is completely dismissive: "if you're not going to hurt yourself, what do you want me to do?" That would get you dismissed from any reasonably-run suicide hotline program ASAP. I have a friend who volunteers for a suicide hotline program here in the US. He says it's actually well run and they keep close tabs on the volunteers. Everyone who volunteers is doing it because they care. It wouldn't make sense for someone to volunteer for such a program just to be dismissive and rude to people who call in. However, I could see this happening at poorly-managed programs that use low-paid employees without proper training and supervision.

cmg 4y ago
I’m glad to hear that. There is a place for these hotlines and I have a lot of respect for the folks who volunteer at them - I hope it didn’t come off differently. My comments weren’t meant to be blanket “everything is like this” but rather pointing out trends & common experiences.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

zahma 4y ago

> Many, if not most, of these places give the operator full access to your phone number and whatever geolocation data they can get based on that. They also have policies where the operator is allowed/encouraged to call emergency services on you without your ongoing consent, or even without telling you. In my experience talking with others who have been affected by those kinds of policies, this can lead to police breaking down your door while you're naked and crying, or worse. A person in deep crisis is not likely to respond well to armed officers showing up, as the police are more likely to come into the situation looking for conflict. Hi, CTL volunteer here. I have some gripes with a few of your assertions. It's true that CTL was caught sharing data. They have retracted that policy, and it remains unclear to me how much of the data was being shared to which level of granularity. Since then, data can be manually deleted after a conversation is concluded. I have seen this happen, and I welcome you to try again if you would like to test the system. That is welcomed. Each counselor is required to treat each texter with empathy and the gravity that a mental health crisis requires. I do not know of anyone on the platform who would disparage a texter because his/her/their crisis isn't significant enough. If you text CTL, it is for a reason, and we want to help you through that moment no matter your background. Another important distinction is that we are trained to risk assess each and every texter, irrespective of our intuition about their mental state. That means I treat someone testing the system like I would someone who has been flagged as an imminent suicide risk. Supervisors monitor this evolution of the conversation closely. The assessment is important because ultimately the decision to call emergency services comes after that rigorous assessment of the person's suicidal ideation, followed by their plan and access to means, as well as their timeline. If all those criteria are met, I contact my supervisor, and then we work on separation from means. If those criteria are not met, we continue the conversation accordingly. I have personally walked numerous people back from the edge simply by talking to them and hearing them out; often times, texters deemed imminent risks are capable of staying safe that night after we have come up with a safety plan for them together. Calling EMS is truly a last resort and not an attempt to cast off responsibility. In the cases when we do call emergency services, it is after we have exhausted all other options. It should be noted that access to geolocation is strictly limited to these supervisors, and in all likelihood is limited to a texter's phone number alone. It's not like they have a backdoor into AT&T, and the supervisor must make a call to emergency services directly. From what I can tell, very little information is given back to CTL. On occasion, I can see a timeline that EMS was dispatched but rarely do I ever learn about the outcome. The success of the platform is that we can work with people to find them their own solutions. CTL was not a viable intermediary for calling 911. All in all, I recommend other readers to treat the post above with a grain of salt. Please be aware that platforms such as CTL are frequently volunteer-staffed, and, while we all do receive 20 hours of mandatory training, we aren't psychologists and we are not allowed to act in a medical capacity in the slightest. Each counselor is expected to work within a strict purview with clear objectives. Lots of well-intentioned people are there for whoever needs support. As far as volunteering goes, this is some of the most emotionally-involved I've ever had to do, and it pains me to read reviews of CTL that paint it is a data profiteering lab of pseudo-psychologists and dismissive blowhards. Lastly, should data privacy be a cornerstone to these services? Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. But I am glad that this service exists, and we should not miss the forest for the trees. Many of our colleagues, friends, relatives, and countrywomen are suffering right now more than ever. We should not profit on their misery, but we have an opportunity to connect with them and change their lives. To my mind, that is worth every byte of data.

sterlind 4y ago

what's the deal with Trans Lifeline? I had their number saved when I was transitioning and had a lot of depression going on from bullying and family not accepting. are they not a good resource for us? edit: why am I being downvoted?

cmg 4y ago
I explained a little elsewhere in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32121332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32121332
- sterlind 4y ago
  thank you for explaining. it's so unfortunate that our community doesn't seem to organize effectively to take care of ourselves. I've seen similar issues in the spaces I've volunteered for as well. infighting, flakiness and a lack of effective organization. :/

deleted 4y ago

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