9 ms·

The article states "There is no catch"... but if I'm not mistaken I'll need to run Apple's operating system, is that right? As much as I like the salacious har

by dinom 4y ago

The article states "There is no catch"... but if I'm not mistaken I'll need to run Apple's operating system, is that right? As much as I like the salacious hardware, that would be a reasonably sized "catch" in my book :-( Or am I wrong; is there an official way to run GNU/Linux as the main operating system?

gorgoiler 4y ago
I don’t pretend that this is the answer you want, but Docker for macOS these days is incredible and it gives you a native Linux experience like nothing else, at least in terms of doing command line hacking. It is extremely fast. If you want a full GNU system then it’s a less attractive route.
- endorphine 4y ago
  My co-workers on M1 Macs constantly face issues with Docker, whether it's filesystem performanc, regressions after every other upgrade or requiring a restart because something just reaches an unrecoverable condition.
  - greymalik 4y ago
    It might not be the M1. I face the same issues with Docker on my MBP.
  - sdflhasjd 4y ago
    I would say docker for macOS has always fallen significantly short of "incredible" and it's even worse on M1.
_ph_ 4y ago
There is. Apple does not restrict you from booting into other operations, they actually have even slightly improved the ability to do so over time on the ARM Macs. The catch is to get another OS which supports your hardware. With Linux, it actually looks good, the Asahi Linux project (https://asahilinux.org/ https://asahilinux.org/) is making great strides, you can install it on ARM Macs, the biggest drawback currently is, that while there is GUI support, it isn't accellerated yet. But it seems, that even the CPU rendered UIs are faster than the GPU on a Raspberry Pi. GPU support for Asahi Linux is making good progress too, so I expect something not too far into the future.
- capableweb 4y ago
  Another catch is that you cannot install Linux (at least Asahi Linux) without first booting macOS, opening up a GUI terminal there and installing Asahi via a shellscript downloaded from their website. Also, saying that "lacking GPU support" is the only drawback, is minimizing the issue a bit. Here is the following components that don't currently work with Asahi Linux: - DisplayPort - Thunderbolt - HDMI on the MacBooks - Bluetooth - GPU acceleration - Video codec acceleration - Neural Engine - CPU deep idle - Sleep mode - Camera - Touch Bar
  - _ph_ 4y ago
    I am not sure how the method of installation plays a role and I have not said, that lacking GPU support is the only drawback, just the biggest. The rest is work im progress or already working. But to a few of your points: - HDMI: the MacBook Air doesn't have HDMI, seems to work on the Mini or how are they getting a monitor attached. Or they use DisplayPort, what you listed as not working. - GPU accelleration, I mentioned that. Of course you cannot expect Video accelleration without GPU support - Neural engine: well, most other devices don't even have one. - CPU idle certainly will come, run times are already excellent under Linux. - Touch Bar: except for the M2 Pro, there are no devices with a touch bar left, and I expect the touch bar to go away entirely soon.
    - capableweb 4y ago
      > I am not sure how the method of installation plays a role It does, because it means I cannot just install Linux on the machine. I have to have macOS installed and running first, then and only then can I install Linux. It makes the hardware dependent on macOS, even if I just wanna run Linux. Other computers you can have literally nothing on it, and then get Windows or Linux running on it (or macOS even). I didn't make that list myself, it's from the official Asahi website. And I'm not gonna argue against you if each item on the list has a big impact or not. I'm generally a fan of Asahi (and I donate to their efforts each month), I was just putting it out there to show that there are actually a bunch of "drawbacks" (more like missing features) than people in this comment thread is letting on.
amelius 4y ago
Apple still allows it. But there is no documentation, so that alternative OS will be entirely based on assumptions ...
- dinom 4y ago
  Someone mentioned it'd be possible to run Asahi Linux, and this may have been in the back of my mind somewhere. But a lack of official docs would make life difficult and most likely explains my cognitive dissonance. Thanks for the info.
- _ph_ 4y ago
  This applies to most computers sold. A lot of PC hardware has components, which might not be supported by Linux nor drivers provided. Fortunately, there are more and more manufacturers, who officially support Linux on their machines and of course a huge user base, which tries to make it work nevertheless.
simonh 4y ago
>"There is no catch"... but if I'm not mistaken I'll need to run Apple's operating system Product works as advertised, news at 11.
- amelius 4y ago
  Not if you expected to buy a general purpose computer.
  - simonh 4y ago
    What does that even mean? "General Purpose" != Linux. All software needs to be developed to run on specific hardware. Even virtualised platforms or interpreted code still depend on software that's developed to run specifically on supported platforms. As it happens, Apple has released development tools and documentation to write and load alternate operating systems on this hardware. The Asahi Linux team have even said Apple is providing even more support than is available in the x86 world nowadays, it's just that this is in many ways a very new architecture. Could they do more? Sure. Are they obliged to? No. Ultimately it's a product advertised with certain capabilities, no compromises means it can do that as expected, otherwise the phrase is basically meaningless.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    Apple advertises the macs with macOS. So I suppose if you buy it expecting something else, that's on you, and the product still "works as advertised". They don't go out of their way to prevent you from running <not macOS>. I'll also note that few companies advertise their PCs as "general purpose computers", if by that you mean "guaranteed to run Linux flawlessly". Even System76 / Dell developer / whatever, which ship with Linux out of the box, don't guarantee the pc will run, say, FreeBSD perfectly. Don't get me wrong, as the GGP post puts it, I'd also like to be able to run Linux on a MacBook Pro. But since I don't want to have a wonky experience, since I understand it'll not work perfectly, I chose to put up with the wonky hardware of my HP, which works well enough.
  - _ph_ 4y ago
    How many "general purpose computers" are out there? There are a few vendors, which explicitly support Windows and Linux, but many computers are just designed for Windows, Linux might or might not run on them. Asahi Linux is making nice progress and I actually hope, that Microsoft decides to support Windows 11 on the Mac too.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
benreesman 4y ago
At the risk of stereotyping a bit: in general people who spell it “GNU/Linux” probably have priorities incompatible with an Apple laptop purchase decision. Don’t get me wrong, I care deeply about software freedom, and I don’t think that’s incompatible with an Apple laptop purchase decision, but the “it’s called GNU/Linux, GNU is the operating system, Linux being merely the kernel…” school of software freedom finds basically everything about Apple deeply offensive.

by dinom 4y ago

gorgoiler 4y ago

I don’t pretend that this is the answer you want, but Docker for macOS these days is incredible and it gives you a native Linux experience like nothing else, at least in terms of doing command line hacking. It is extremely fast. If you want a full GNU system then it’s a less attractive route.

endorphine 4y ago
My co-workers on M1 Macs constantly face issues with Docker, whether it's filesystem performanc, regressions after every other upgrade or requiring a restart because something just reaches an unrecoverable condition.
- greymalik 4y ago
  It might not be the M1. I face the same issues with Docker on my MBP.
- sdflhasjd 4y ago
  I would say docker for macOS has always fallen significantly short of "incredible" and it's even worse on M1.

_ph_ 4y ago

There is. Apple does not restrict you from booting into other operations, they actually have even slightly improved the ability to do so over time on the ARM Macs. The catch is to get another OS which supports your hardware. With Linux, it actually looks good, the Asahi Linux project (https://asahilinux.org/ https://asahilinux.org/) is making great strides, you can install it on ARM Macs, the biggest drawback currently is, that while there is GUI support, it isn't accellerated yet. But it seems, that even the CPU rendered UIs are faster than the GPU on a Raspberry Pi. GPU support for Asahi Linux is making good progress too, so I expect something not too far into the future.

capableweb 4y ago
Another catch is that you cannot install Linux (at least Asahi Linux) without first booting macOS, opening up a GUI terminal there and installing Asahi via a shellscript downloaded from their website. Also, saying that "lacking GPU support" is the only drawback, is minimizing the issue a bit. Here is the following components that don't currently work with Asahi Linux: - DisplayPort - Thunderbolt - HDMI on the MacBooks - Bluetooth - GPU acceleration - Video codec acceleration - Neural Engine - CPU deep idle - Sleep mode - Camera - Touch Bar
- _ph_ 4y ago
  I am not sure how the method of installation plays a role and I have not said, that lacking GPU support is the only drawback, just the biggest. The rest is work im progress or already working. But to a few of your points: - HDMI: the MacBook Air doesn't have HDMI, seems to work on the Mini or how are they getting a monitor attached. Or they use DisplayPort, what you listed as not working. - GPU accelleration, I mentioned that. Of course you cannot expect Video accelleration without GPU support - Neural engine: well, most other devices don't even have one. - CPU idle certainly will come, run times are already excellent under Linux. - Touch Bar: except for the M2 Pro, there are no devices with a touch bar left, and I expect the touch bar to go away entirely soon.
  - capableweb 4y ago
    > I am not sure how the method of installation plays a role It does, because it means I cannot just install Linux on the machine. I have to have macOS installed and running first, then and only then can I install Linux. It makes the hardware dependent on macOS, even if I just wanna run Linux. Other computers you can have literally nothing on it, and then get Windows or Linux running on it (or macOS even). I didn't make that list myself, it's from the official Asahi website. And I'm not gonna argue against you if each item on the list has a big impact or not. I'm generally a fan of Asahi (and I donate to their efforts each month), I was just putting it out there to show that there are actually a bunch of "drawbacks" (more like missing features) than people in this comment thread is letting on.

amelius 4y ago

Apple still allows it. But there is no documentation, so that alternative OS will be entirely based on assumptions ...

dinom 4y ago
Someone mentioned it'd be possible to run Asahi Linux, and this may have been in the back of my mind somewhere. But a lack of official docs would make life difficult and most likely explains my cognitive dissonance. Thanks for the info.
_ph_ 4y ago
This applies to most computers sold. A lot of PC hardware has components, which might not be supported by Linux nor drivers provided. Fortunately, there are more and more manufacturers, who officially support Linux on their machines and of course a huge user base, which tries to make it work nevertheless.

simonh 4y ago

>"There is no catch"... but if I'm not mistaken I'll need to run Apple's operating system Product works as advertised, news at 11.

amelius 4y ago
Not if you expected to buy a general purpose computer.
- simonh 4y ago
  What does that even mean? "General Purpose" != Linux. All software needs to be developed to run on specific hardware. Even virtualised platforms or interpreted code still depend on software that's developed to run specifically on supported platforms. As it happens, Apple has released development tools and documentation to write and load alternate operating systems on this hardware. The Asahi Linux team have even said Apple is providing even more support than is available in the x86 world nowadays, it's just that this is in many ways a very new architecture. Could they do more? Sure. Are they obliged to? No. Ultimately it's a product advertised with certain capabilities, no compromises means it can do that as expected, otherwise the phrase is basically meaningless.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  Apple advertises the macs with macOS. So I suppose if you buy it expecting something else, that's on you, and the product still "works as advertised". They don't go out of their way to prevent you from running <not macOS>. I'll also note that few companies advertise their PCs as "general purpose computers", if by that you mean "guaranteed to run Linux flawlessly". Even System76 / Dell developer / whatever, which ship with Linux out of the box, don't guarantee the pc will run, say, FreeBSD perfectly. Don't get me wrong, as the GGP post puts it, I'd also like to be able to run Linux on a MacBook Pro. But since I don't want to have a wonky experience, since I understand it'll not work perfectly, I chose to put up with the wonky hardware of my HP, which works well enough.
- _ph_ 4y ago
  How many "general purpose computers" are out there? There are a few vendors, which explicitly support Windows and Linux, but many computers are just designed for Windows, Linux might or might not run on them. Asahi Linux is making nice progress and I actually hope, that Microsoft decides to support Windows 11 on the Mac too.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

benreesman 4y ago

At the risk of stereotyping a bit: in general people who spell it “GNU/Linux” probably have priorities incompatible with an Apple laptop purchase decision. Don’t get me wrong, I care deeply about software freedom, and I don’t think that’s incompatible with an Apple laptop purchase decision, but the “it’s called GNU/Linux, GNU is the operating system, Linux being merely the kernel…” school of software freedom finds basically everything about Apple deeply offensive.