6 ms·

Hunger is mediated by a bunch of hormones and you can test for some of those, but there is no test for the feeling of hunger. As a comparison, it is famously ve

by csours 4y ago

Hunger is mediated by a bunch of hormones and you can test for some of those, but there is no test for the feeling of hunger. As a comparison, it is famously very hard for doctors to understand pain; it is also difficult for patients to communicate about pain. The feeling of hunger is not comparable between people. Hunger is driven by multiple sensations (blood sugar, stomach stretch, hormone levels) and by cognitive behaviors (it's lunchtime, it's a feast day) and psychological conditioning (advertising). People have relationships with, and expectations about food. The response to hunger is learned. It is driven by culture - for instance it is 'manly' to eat a large steak and loaded baked potato where I'm from; many times the smaller cuts of steak have either a woman's name or some feminine aspect. Scientists use Occam's Razor to find the most probable cause for some effect, and people in general want to find something simple to blame. I think the obesity epidemic has many causes, and it is particularly hard to understand because researchers have only lately begun to take hunger seriously. It is easy to say "Diet and Exercise" but losing body fat means that you must continuously make choices that decrease your comfort in some way - eating fewer highly rewarding foods, maintaining a state of hunger, increasing activity level. Those choices are difficult, and they are different for everyone. I believe there are many consequences of the difficulty in measuring and tracking hunger. I think that many people (including doctors and researchers and HN users) want to be able to change one thing or add one drug and suddenly solve the obesity epidemic. I think it makes it hard for doctors to talk to patients. It makes it hard for people to understand what their body is doing.

convexfunction 4y ago
> losing body fat means that you must continuously make choices that decrease your comfort in some way - eating fewer highly rewarding foods, maintaining a state of hunger, increasing activity level Not necessarily! I've successfully lost a lot of body fat (~50 pounds over the last 18 months) by deliberately changing my diet to eat more foods (that I like) that are lower in energy density than what I was eating before -- fruits and veggies, lean meats, etc. I do end up eating fewer stereotypically highly rewarding foods, but that's because I'm already full of other highly rewarding-to-me foods and don't feel like having a treat or a huge fast food meal or whatever. And I'm certainly not tolerating frequent hunger!
- butwhywhyoh 4y ago
  You just restated what the OP said, but tried to paint it somehow in a more positive light. You yourself stated you are "eating fewer ... highly rewarding foods". So what exactly are you contradicting in their statement?
  - awsrocks 4y ago
    I think they’re saying that they eat equivalently rewarding foods that are more healthy.
  - convexfunction 4y ago
    That one word you elided, "stereotypically", was doing a lot of work! I'm not actually eating fewer highly rewarding-to-me foods, just less junk food, and I'm not constantly hungry.
  - arbitrage 4y ago
    The implicit context there is that the changes to diet and behaviour don't have to be "choices that decrease your comfort in some way". That is, it doesn't have to be uncomfortable.
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    They are trying to convince everyone that the fruit & veg & lean meats is every bit as enjoyable as a steak and piece of cheesecake. It may be for them, but as a rule I have my doubts.
    - convexfunction 4y ago
      There are some fruits and vegetables and lean meats (which absolutely includes "leaner cuts of steak with the fat trimmed off") that I quite sincerely like as much as junk food, if not more. Two pan-fried salmon fillets and a big bowl of brussels sprouts with butter beats the pants off even a pretty good burger-and-fries, the main downside being the prep (and, well, the cost for most people). A pound of fresh strawberries is damn good and not something I have to force myself to eat, etcera. I don't deliberately avoid dessert, though I do tend to eat it less than I used to. I'll have the cheesecake if I really feel like it. My sympathies to those who really just don't like any fruits or vegetables, but there are lots of other margins to operate on in lowering your dietary energy density. e.g., for a side with your steak, I assert most people will enjoy a baked potato with a bit of butter (~1 cal/gram) about as much as garlic bread (~3 to 4 cal/gram).
gcanyon 4y ago
About 15 years ago I adopted an informal low-carb diet: I started by skipping instant breakfast for breakfast and ended by adopting the Carl’s Jr. lettuce-wrapped burgers for lunch. The goal was to change my cholesterol (it worked), not lose weight, and I ate however much I wanted. But at the same time I lost 30 pounds over about three months. I didn’t even notice the change for the first month. I wasn’t fat to start, and by the end I was startlingly thin. Anecdotal, obviously.
kixiQu 4y ago
> The feeling of hunger is not comparable between people. I wish this were the baseline understanding everyone shared! Even as one person, as my mental health has been differently treated over time, I've been shocked at how different the subjective experience of hunger at various calorie deficits has been.
snowwrestler 4y ago
I lost weight during the pandemic by just trying to make sure I was hungry by the next meal time. By that I mean, I would eat breakfast and then see how hungry I was at lunchtime. If I wasn’t very hungry for lunch, then I would still eat lunch, but I tried eating less at breakfast the next day. Same with lunch-to-dinner. Over time my meal portion sizes came down, but I was not looking directly at that, I was just paying attention to the feeling of hunger. What I realized was that I would eat a big breakfast and then a big lunch just because it was lunchtime. So I was overeating; basically taking in more calories than my body needed. It was a combination of habit and not thinking about what I was feeling. I realized that I should feel pretty hungry before a meal, but I wasn’t letting that happen. I totally agree with you that hunger is subjective and hard to measure outside of our own perception. I’m not sure I could have or would have done this based on someone else’s coaching. It’s hard to calibrate my personal feeling of “hungry enough” based on what another person says. And it takes motivation, which has to come from within.
- aantix 4y ago
  Motivation generally doesn't work for the long term. A few months you may be skinner. 1,2,3 years, you may have maintained the weight loss. 10 years later will probably be fatter. Those are the numbers.
nradov 4y ago
People in developed countries have become too accustomed to comfort. We need be accept a certain level of discomfort and pain. Embrace the suck. And most people with high BMIs didn't get that way eating steak and baked potatoes. In fact, if you live entirely on that diet it's quite difficult to get fat.
- csours 4y ago
  > if you live entirely on that diet it's quite difficult to get fat I believe that for myself, being able to eat like a king from many different culinary traditions has been a major factor in my fat gain. "Obesity is a major health risk, with junk food consumption playing a central role in weight gain, because of its high palatability and high-energy nutrients. The Cafeteria (CAF) diet model for animal experiments consists of the same tasty but unhealthy food products that people eat (e.g. hot dogs and muffins), and considers variety, novelty and secondary food features, such as smell and texture. This model, therefore, mimics human eating patterns better than other models." - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33309818/#:~:text=The%20Cafeteria%20(CAF)%20diet%20model,patterns%20better%20than%20other%20models https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33309818/#:~:text=The%20Cafe....
nonameiguess 4y ago
I think, as a society, we're having trouble grappling with the implications of the hormonal changes that happen due to fat set points increasing over time. It seems to make it nearly impossible for some people to lose weight over a long run of time. Whatever they lose, their body will try very hard, apparently for the rest of their lives, to put it back on. But what I think we're having trouble in understanding what this means is that it doesn't mean obesity as a social problem can't be solved. It might mean some amount of people who are already obese will never be able to sustainably change that fact, but it's not like people are being born with naturally higher fat set points. That is a hormonal change that happens when you become obese and stay that way for a long time. Interventions that focus on younger people who have not yet become obese can still work. But this is contrary and different to how the entire obesity industrial complex works. It is focused on treating overweight and obese people, not on preventing new people from ever getting that way in the first place. Even with children, we focus the interventions on trying to help fat kids lose weight. We should probably expect that to work at least a little bit better than trying to intervene in adults, but even better still is to work with the kids who aren't obese, which at an early enough age is all of them, and figure out how to keep them that way.
frotak 4y ago
> losing body fat means that you must continuously make choices that decrease your comfort in some way - eating fewer highly rewarding foods, maintaining a state of hunger, increasing activity level It is interesting to see "increasing activity level" as being a decrease in comfort. But I suppose that's because "comfort" here isn't defined absolutely. I also am not sure that "comfort" is an attribute that should be optimized for in disregard for all others. If this statement is read as "anything that does not have 100% positive feedback is undesirable" then I think it would be very challenging to make any improvements in a person's life. But then I also don't think that "comfort" is necessarily an ideal target to optimize. I think a more holistic measure such as "satisfaction" is a more productive target. We can find "satisfaction" in things that are not 100% pleasant but which in turn result in greater happiness or feelings of contentment than doing only those things that have positive feedback. This measure of "comfortable" also does not seem to account for the secondary effects of "comfortable" choices. E.g., if we eat only "highly rewarding foods" and become obese we see discomfort in other parts of life (loss of mobility, health issues, difficulty performing mundane physical tasks, etc)
- csours 4y ago
  I don't like to sweat. I did construction work with my dad in the Texas heat. When I looked at careers, I chose one that I can do indoors. I'm not saying that is good, I'm saying that is a strong value statement that I made when I was younger. It's hard to change values, even in the face of evidence. I think people should find exercise that they enjoy. I have struggled with this due to other physical limitations (in addition to my weight) and my attitude and cognitive behaviors. I now enjoy riding my bike, hiking, and swimming.
iLoveOncall 4y ago
I feel like anybody, including scientists, that speaks about hunger when it relates to being overweight, has never been overweight, or is lying to themselves. We don’t eat because we’re hungry, we eat because we’re bored.
- csours 4y ago
  > we eat because we’re bored. And because we're stressed. And because we expect to eat. And because our stomachs are empty. And because we have our thirst signal confused for hunger. And ... I bet there are at least 20 distinct sensations that people feel as 'hunger'

by csours 4y ago

convexfunction 4y ago

> losing body fat means that you must continuously make choices that decrease your comfort in some way - eating fewer highly rewarding foods, maintaining a state of hunger, increasing activity level Not necessarily! I've successfully lost a lot of body fat (~50 pounds over the last 18 months) by deliberately changing my diet to eat more foods (that I like) that are lower in energy density than what I was eating before -- fruits and veggies, lean meats, etc. I do end up eating fewer stereotypically highly rewarding foods, but that's because I'm already full of other highly rewarding-to-me foods and don't feel like having a treat or a huge fast food meal or whatever. And I'm certainly not tolerating frequent hunger!

butwhywhyoh 4y ago
You just restated what the OP said, but tried to paint it somehow in a more positive light. You yourself stated you are "eating fewer ... highly rewarding foods". So what exactly are you contradicting in their statement?
- awsrocks 4y ago
  I think they’re saying that they eat equivalently rewarding foods that are more healthy.
- convexfunction 4y ago
  That one word you elided, "stereotypically", was doing a lot of work! I'm not actually eating fewer highly rewarding-to-me foods, just less junk food, and I'm not constantly hungry.
- arbitrage 4y ago
  The implicit context there is that the changes to diet and behaviour don't have to be "choices that decrease your comfort in some way". That is, it doesn't have to be uncomfortable.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  They are trying to convince everyone that the fruit & veg & lean meats is every bit as enjoyable as a steak and piece of cheesecake. It may be for them, but as a rule I have my doubts.
  - convexfunction 4y ago
    There are some fruits and vegetables and lean meats (which absolutely includes "leaner cuts of steak with the fat trimmed off") that I quite sincerely like as much as junk food, if not more. Two pan-fried salmon fillets and a big bowl of brussels sprouts with butter beats the pants off even a pretty good burger-and-fries, the main downside being the prep (and, well, the cost for most people). A pound of fresh strawberries is damn good and not something I have to force myself to eat, etcera. I don't deliberately avoid dessert, though I do tend to eat it less than I used to. I'll have the cheesecake if I really feel like it. My sympathies to those who really just don't like any fruits or vegetables, but there are lots of other margins to operate on in lowering your dietary energy density. e.g., for a side with your steak, I assert most people will enjoy a baked potato with a bit of butter (~1 cal/gram) about as much as garlic bread (~3 to 4 cal/gram).

gcanyon 4y ago

About 15 years ago I adopted an informal low-carb diet: I started by skipping instant breakfast for breakfast and ended by adopting the Carl’s Jr. lettuce-wrapped burgers for lunch. The goal was to change my cholesterol (it worked), not lose weight, and I ate however much I wanted. But at the same time I lost 30 pounds over about three months. I didn’t even notice the change for the first month. I wasn’t fat to start, and by the end I was startlingly thin. Anecdotal, obviously.

kixiQu 4y ago

> The feeling of hunger is not comparable between people. I wish this were the baseline understanding everyone shared! Even as one person, as my mental health has been differently treated over time, I've been shocked at how different the subjective experience of hunger at various calorie deficits has been.

snowwrestler 4y ago

I lost weight during the pandemic by just trying to make sure I was hungry by the next meal time. By that I mean, I would eat breakfast and then see how hungry I was at lunchtime. If I wasn’t very hungry for lunch, then I would still eat lunch, but I tried eating less at breakfast the next day. Same with lunch-to-dinner. Over time my meal portion sizes came down, but I was not looking directly at that, I was just paying attention to the feeling of hunger. What I realized was that I would eat a big breakfast and then a big lunch just because it was lunchtime. So I was overeating; basically taking in more calories than my body needed. It was a combination of habit and not thinking about what I was feeling. I realized that I should feel pretty hungry before a meal, but I wasn’t letting that happen. I totally agree with you that hunger is subjective and hard to measure outside of our own perception. I’m not sure I could have or would have done this based on someone else’s coaching. It’s hard to calibrate my personal feeling of “hungry enough” based on what another person says. And it takes motivation, which has to come from within.

aantix 4y ago
Motivation generally doesn't work for the long term. A few months you may be skinner. 1,2,3 years, you may have maintained the weight loss. 10 years later will probably be fatter. Those are the numbers.

nradov 4y ago

People in developed countries have become too accustomed to comfort. We need be accept a certain level of discomfort and pain. Embrace the suck. And most people with high BMIs didn't get that way eating steak and baked potatoes. In fact, if you live entirely on that diet it's quite difficult to get fat.

csours 4y ago
> if you live entirely on that diet it's quite difficult to get fat I believe that for myself, being able to eat like a king from many different culinary traditions has been a major factor in my fat gain. "Obesity is a major health risk, with junk food consumption playing a central role in weight gain, because of its high palatability and high-energy nutrients. The Cafeteria (CAF) diet model for animal experiments consists of the same tasty but unhealthy food products that people eat (e.g. hot dogs and muffins), and considers variety, novelty and secondary food features, such as smell and texture. This model, therefore, mimics human eating patterns better than other models." - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33309818/#:~:text=The%20Cafeteria%20(CAF)%20diet%20model,patterns%20better%20than%20other%20models https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33309818/#:~:text=The%20Cafe....

nonameiguess 4y ago

I think, as a society, we're having trouble grappling with the implications of the hormonal changes that happen due to fat set points increasing over time. It seems to make it nearly impossible for some people to lose weight over a long run of time. Whatever they lose, their body will try very hard, apparently for the rest of their lives, to put it back on. But what I think we're having trouble in understanding what this means is that it doesn't mean obesity as a social problem can't be solved. It might mean some amount of people who are already obese will never be able to sustainably change that fact, but it's not like people are being born with naturally higher fat set points. That is a hormonal change that happens when you become obese and stay that way for a long time. Interventions that focus on younger people who have not yet become obese can still work. But this is contrary and different to how the entire obesity industrial complex works. It is focused on treating overweight and obese people, not on preventing new people from ever getting that way in the first place. Even with children, we focus the interventions on trying to help fat kids lose weight. We should probably expect that to work at least a little bit better than trying to intervene in adults, but even better still is to work with the kids who aren't obese, which at an early enough age is all of them, and figure out how to keep them that way.

frotak 4y ago

> losing body fat means that you must continuously make choices that decrease your comfort in some way - eating fewer highly rewarding foods, maintaining a state of hunger, increasing activity level It is interesting to see "increasing activity level" as being a decrease in comfort. But I suppose that's because "comfort" here isn't defined absolutely. I also am not sure that "comfort" is an attribute that should be optimized for in disregard for all others. If this statement is read as "anything that does not have 100% positive feedback is undesirable" then I think it would be very challenging to make any improvements in a person's life. But then I also don't think that "comfort" is necessarily an ideal target to optimize. I think a more holistic measure such as "satisfaction" is a more productive target. We can find "satisfaction" in things that are not 100% pleasant but which in turn result in greater happiness or feelings of contentment than doing only those things that have positive feedback. This measure of "comfortable" also does not seem to account for the secondary effects of "comfortable" choices. E.g., if we eat only "highly rewarding foods" and become obese we see discomfort in other parts of life (loss of mobility, health issues, difficulty performing mundane physical tasks, etc)

csours 4y ago
I don't like to sweat. I did construction work with my dad in the Texas heat. When I looked at careers, I chose one that I can do indoors. I'm not saying that is good, I'm saying that is a strong value statement that I made when I was younger. It's hard to change values, even in the face of evidence. I think people should find exercise that they enjoy. I have struggled with this due to other physical limitations (in addition to my weight) and my attitude and cognitive behaviors. I now enjoy riding my bike, hiking, and swimming.

iLoveOncall 4y ago

I feel like anybody, including scientists, that speaks about hunger when it relates to being overweight, has never been overweight, or is lying to themselves. We don’t eat because we’re hungry, we eat because we’re bored.

csours 4y ago
> we eat because we’re bored. And because we're stressed. And because we expect to eat. And because our stomachs are empty. And because we have our thirst signal confused for hunger. And ... I bet there are at least 20 distinct sensations that people feel as 'hunger'