6 ms·

Refusing to be on web cam without a compelling reason is a huge red flag by itself.

gumby 4y ago
There have been good A/B studies showing significant changes in response rate to resumes with and without photos. How someone looks doesn't seem like it should be correlated with their ability to draw a picture or choose a search algorithm.
- kalupa 4y ago
  I'm unsure if this is at all equivalent. I'm pretty sure I'd see someone in person before covid forced remote work (thankfully), physically, and that confirms the identity of who I'm talking to to a huge extent. How you interact with someone is just as important, if not more important, than if they can choose the correct algorithm.
- DoneWithAllThat 4y ago
  We’re not talking unconscious bias silliness here. We’re talking about literal fraud/misrepresentation and needing verification that someone is who they claim to be. Using our eyebulbs isn’t inherently problematic.
  - leereeves 4y ago
    Yes, unconscious bias is a silly thing to talk about when so many still people face outright discrimination and hostility, but I don't think GP meant unconscious bias. The A/B studies are also used to prove discrimination that people usually won't admit to, not only to reveal unconscious bias.
  - Woden501 4y ago
    "unconscious bias silliness" so you're telling me that an interviewer is just as likely to hire someone who has visible issues sitting still/focusing on a video call as they are someone who sits perfectly still and gives their full 100% attention to the call? No, not a chance. When there are two candidates for a position at approximately equal skill levels when performing a video interview but one has ADHD that comes along with the inability to remain solely focused on one small screen and voice for an extended period of time you can guess which candidate is going to be picked the vast majority of the time. Dismissing such a huge issue as silliness is exactly the reason why many people who have issues similar to that do not want to perform video calls for interviews.
    - LucasCastroCA 4y ago
      I think you're misunderstanding them. You two are basically discussing two (very important) topics. On the topic of fraud prevention, the interviewer could simply ask the interviewee to be on camera for literally 5 seconds, then feel free to turn off video. Again, this is based on an Upwork profile that already had a picture, so if discrimination was going to happen, it would be before the video interview stage anyway. This is just about a verification step, and in a platform like Upwork, refusing to be on camera for LITERALLY 5 seconds probably SHOULD be considered a big red flag.
- cldellow 4y ago
  This is true. It's also true that Upwork has many, many people who will present themselves as a single individual. Instead, they are actually an agency and you will get a rotating cast of developers. This becomes apparent the fifth time you explain the same thing to your contractor, who is actually not the person you explained it to the fourth time, or the third time, or on and on and on. Video verification helps you ensure that you are getting what you paid for, and that your time explaining the brief and iterating on their work isn't wasted.
- djohnston 4y ago
  Refusing to show up on a webcam is undoubtedly correlated with liklihood of fraud and misrepresentation. I suppose "this is why we can't have nice things."
- celim307 4y ago
  I adamantly am a camera off person but am shame to admit I do add my photo to resume, it really did make responses from companies night and day
  - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    Are you based in the US?
- buscoquadnary 4y ago
  I actually think I've benefited from the reverse. I have a very Asian sounding last name (spelled completely different though) despite being of Russian-Dutch-English descent. I've noticed in the age of remote work some people seem suprised when they first see me. I am now wondering if I am benefiting from the opposite problem of people correlating me with Asian stereotypes?
heavyset_go 4y ago
I've worked with clients in the past who have never seen my face in video. Had years long relationships with some of them without ever having seen each other on webcam, and it worked out great on both of our ends.
- IshKebab 4y ago
  But would you have refused to talk to them on video once for verification purposes?
  - heavyset_go 4y ago
    I would have made it clear that I'd rather not be inconvenienced, and I would also find it insulting that my identity was in question given the publicizing I've done, the publication of my work, how I feel about the quality of my work for said clients and the existing positive relationships with the clients.
- tluyben2 4y ago
  I even have (ex)founding partners in million$ companies that were sold or still exist who I never saw or spoke to via voice. Only text chat. I also have and had many colleagues I never saw or voice spoke to. Works fine; no one cares on either side.
bergenty 4y ago
I worked a job for 3 years and never once turned on my camera. It worked out great. I even had my webcam off for my going away party.
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > I worked a job for 3 years and never once turned on my camera. It worked out great. I even had my webcam off for my going away party. But that's not quite the same as interviewing with the webcam off.
eyelidlessness 4y ago
I very seldom feel inclined to refuse, but I even more seldom feel comfortable on camera. Which is to say in most circumstances I avoid being on camera when I can. I’ve been remote most of my career, nothing changed the last few years to introduce new stressors around this. I just don’t like being on video, or interacting with other people on video. It gives me a firm but unspecific sense of unease is unlikely to be “compelling” to anyone who doesn’t relate… so, huge red flag I guess? Not sure what you think it flags, but I’m glad you’re not requesting meetings with me.
- DiggyJohnson 4y ago
  Sure, I relate: but would you comply if asked for webcam on for an interview for a remote position?
  - eyelidlessness 4y ago
    Quoting myself: I very seldom feel inclined to refuse. That said, interviewing for my current position (fully remote team), I was given the option of video or voice call, and I chose voice. I chose that cautiously because I knew it might be offputting but I also knew it might be a good indicator of my prospective team’s culture if it had been offputting. Fortunately that wasn’t an issue! And I now do a video chat about once a week, which isn’t particularly demanding, and it’s generally a positive experience because we work well together… but I do take an hour or two to decompress afterwards.
    - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
      I would have chosen video chat, but otherwise it sounds likes we have a very similar perspective on this. Good point about using that moment as a team fit thing. Cheers
- muppetman 4y ago
  I think if you're introducing yourself to people who'd like to hire you and haven't met you, it is normal etiquette to appear on camera. There is still a level of body language conveyed, even if it's just your face. I think we all get not wanting to be on camera for every meeting, but surely it makes sense to present yourself on camera for the initial interview if you're able?

There have been good A/B studies showing significant changes in response rate to resumes with and without photos. How someone looks doesn't seem like it should be correlated with their ability to draw a picture or choose a search algorithm.

kalupa 4y ago
I'm unsure if this is at all equivalent. I'm pretty sure I'd see someone in person before covid forced remote work (thankfully), physically, and that confirms the identity of who I'm talking to to a huge extent. How you interact with someone is just as important, if not more important, than if they can choose the correct algorithm.
DoneWithAllThat 4y ago
We’re not talking unconscious bias silliness here. We’re talking about literal fraud/misrepresentation and needing verification that someone is who they claim to be. Using our eyebulbs isn’t inherently problematic.
- leereeves 4y ago
  Yes, unconscious bias is a silly thing to talk about when so many still people face outright discrimination and hostility, but I don't think GP meant unconscious bias. The A/B studies are also used to prove discrimination that people usually won't admit to, not only to reveal unconscious bias.
- Woden501 4y ago
  "unconscious bias silliness" so you're telling me that an interviewer is just as likely to hire someone who has visible issues sitting still/focusing on a video call as they are someone who sits perfectly still and gives their full 100% attention to the call? No, not a chance. When there are two candidates for a position at approximately equal skill levels when performing a video interview but one has ADHD that comes along with the inability to remain solely focused on one small screen and voice for an extended period of time you can guess which candidate is going to be picked the vast majority of the time. Dismissing such a huge issue as silliness is exactly the reason why many people who have issues similar to that do not want to perform video calls for interviews.
  - LucasCastroCA 4y ago
    I think you're misunderstanding them. You two are basically discussing two (very important) topics. On the topic of fraud prevention, the interviewer could simply ask the interviewee to be on camera for literally 5 seconds, then feel free to turn off video. Again, this is based on an Upwork profile that already had a picture, so if discrimination was going to happen, it would be before the video interview stage anyway. This is just about a verification step, and in a platform like Upwork, refusing to be on camera for LITERALLY 5 seconds probably SHOULD be considered a big red flag.
cldellow 4y ago
This is true. It's also true that Upwork has many, many people who will present themselves as a single individual. Instead, they are actually an agency and you will get a rotating cast of developers. This becomes apparent the fifth time you explain the same thing to your contractor, who is actually not the person you explained it to the fourth time, or the third time, or on and on and on. Video verification helps you ensure that you are getting what you paid for, and that your time explaining the brief and iterating on their work isn't wasted.
djohnston 4y ago
Refusing to show up on a webcam is undoubtedly correlated with liklihood of fraud and misrepresentation. I suppose "this is why we can't have nice things."
celim307 4y ago
I adamantly am a camera off person but am shame to admit I do add my photo to resume, it really did make responses from companies night and day
- DiggyJohnson 4y ago
  Are you based in the US?
buscoquadnary 4y ago
I actually think I've benefited from the reverse. I have a very Asian sounding last name (spelled completely different though) despite being of Russian-Dutch-English descent. I've noticed in the age of remote work some people seem suprised when they first see me. I am now wondering if I am benefiting from the opposite problem of people correlating me with Asian stereotypes?

heavyset_go 4y ago

I've worked with clients in the past who have never seen my face in video. Had years long relationships with some of them without ever having seen each other on webcam, and it worked out great on both of our ends.

IshKebab 4y ago
But would you have refused to talk to them on video once for verification purposes?
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  I would have made it clear that I'd rather not be inconvenienced, and I would also find it insulting that my identity was in question given the publicizing I've done, the publication of my work, how I feel about the quality of my work for said clients and the existing positive relationships with the clients.
tluyben2 4y ago
I even have (ex)founding partners in million$ companies that were sold or still exist who I never saw or spoke to via voice. Only text chat. I also have and had many colleagues I never saw or voice spoke to. Works fine; no one cares on either side.

bergenty 4y ago

I worked a job for 3 years and never once turned on my camera. It worked out great. I even had my webcam off for my going away party.

lelanthran 4y ago
> I worked a job for 3 years and never once turned on my camera. It worked out great. I even had my webcam off for my going away party. But that's not quite the same as interviewing with the webcam off.

eyelidlessness 4y ago

I very seldom feel inclined to refuse, but I even more seldom feel comfortable on camera. Which is to say in most circumstances I avoid being on camera when I can. I’ve been remote most of my career, nothing changed the last few years to introduce new stressors around this. I just don’t like being on video, or interacting with other people on video. It gives me a firm but unspecific sense of unease is unlikely to be “compelling” to anyone who doesn’t relate… so, huge red flag I guess? Not sure what you think it flags, but I’m glad you’re not requesting meetings with me.

DiggyJohnson 4y ago
Sure, I relate: but would you comply if asked for webcam on for an interview for a remote position?
- eyelidlessness 4y ago
  Quoting myself: I very seldom feel inclined to refuse. That said, interviewing for my current position (fully remote team), I was given the option of video or voice call, and I chose voice. I chose that cautiously because I knew it might be offputting but I also knew it might be a good indicator of my prospective team’s culture if it had been offputting. Fortunately that wasn’t an issue! And I now do a video chat about once a week, which isn’t particularly demanding, and it’s generally a positive experience because we work well together… but I do take an hour or two to decompress afterwards.
  - DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    I would have chosen video chat, but otherwise it sounds likes we have a very similar perspective on this. Good point about using that moment as a team fit thing. Cheers
muppetman 4y ago
I think if you're introducing yourself to people who'd like to hire you and haven't met you, it is normal etiquette to appear on camera. There is still a level of body language conveyed, even if it's just your face. I think we all get not wanting to be on camera for every meeting, but surely it makes sense to present yourself on camera for the initial interview if you're able?