8 ms·
BMW introduces new heated seat subscription in UK
- aosmith 4y agoThis was also a thing on a land rover I rented recently. It could only be remote started via app with a $45/month subscription.
- Biologist123 4y agoCapitalism is truly a race to the bottom (pun intended).
- Lio 4y agoThis again. They’re not giving you the heating hardware for free. They’re selling you the heated seats and then selling you the ability to turn them on separately. Not to mention the arbitrage opportunities. BMW are now the only car dealer network that can trade cars back without features and then add them in for no cost before they go back out on sale. ...or turn them off and get used car buyer to pay for them yet again. Rent seeking MBA fuckers. The only hope is that the market punishes them. The problem is that if every company does this then they act as a cartel and stop the market working correctly.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- Biologist123 4y ago> Rent seeking MBA fuckers. T-shirt slogan.
- tchock23 4y agoOr a new Radiohead lyric
- betwixthewires 4y agoBMW isn't the only company doing this, Tesla actually began all this by building one hardware platform for manufacturing simplicity and then locking the functionality behind software paywalls. Several other car companies have since done things like this with their entertainment units, remote start and the like. It should be illegal. This is all just a new workaround to consumer protections by way of EULAs, if I buy the hardware there should be a lawful way for me to use it. If a product is pure software, fine, but if it's hardware I bought and it won't work without some specific software the manufacturer should enable me to use it with my own software.
- dash2 4y ago> It should be illegal. This is all just a new workaround to consumer protections by way of EULAs, if I buy the hardware there should be a lawful way for me to use it. OK, I'll bite. Why? This is a free transaction between two parties, why should it be banned? (There are several possible answers, I'm just interested which one motivates your comment.)
- this_was_posted 4y agoFor me it's because ownership should mean true ownership, just like how you should be allowed to repair your own devices if you want.
- mavhc 4y agoDon't buy a closed source car
- selfhoster11 4y agoGreat. Point me to the next closest open source/hardware car that's not a jalopy, is road-worthy and crash-safe, is globally available, and that doesn't cost 2x the retail price of a "consumer" car.
- 4y ago
- TAForObvReasons 4y agoTesla discussed doing this last year: https://driveteslacanada.ca/model-3/tesla-unlock-model-3-heated-steering-wheel-soon-paid-ota-software-update/ https://driveteslacanada.ca/model-3/tesla-unlock-model-3-hea... They had paid range upgrade in 2016: https://electrek.co/2016/11/08/tesla-in-car-purchase-software-locked-features/ https://electrek.co/2016/11/08/tesla-in-car-purchase-softwar... Yet it seems the market gave Tesla a pass?
- gruturo 4y agoThe price of a 60KWh Model S was substantially lower than the price of a 75KWh one, and Tesla had economies of scale by just building 75KWh packs and using them everywhere. It was not an unreasonable value proposition for the end user, but most importantly it was a single one-off payment. It's the monthly cost which really annoys me in the BMW case. Literally rent seeking. There is no justification whatsoever for a monthly fee for a heated seat, there is no back-end to run and maintain (other than what they build explicitly to make the rent a possibility, and fuck that).
- helsinkiandrew 4y agoI wonder how long before CAN bus dongles that unlock 'locked' functionality appear for sale.
- HyprMusic 4y agoYou can already unlock spec features (called VO codes) in BMWs with a $20 dongle, some pirated dealer software and a simple YouTube video. Maybe they will introduce stronger protections but enabling features you didn't spec in a BMW is already a very common and easy thing to do. The only difference is now you don't need to scavenge the hardware from a breaker's yard.
- sligor 4y agoI wonder how long before car companies convince law makers that "unlocking heated seat" impacts critical safety of the car and voids insurance in case of accident.
- semi-extrinsic 4y agoOh, we've been there for decades. My old 2001 Peugeot 307 was sold without the "driving computer" - the function where you could click a button and cycle through fuel consumption/range/speed on the small display. It was a popular mod to retrofit the appropriate button (the wires were still there) and to have someone with access to Peugeot Planet activate the driving computer feature.
- travbrack 4y agoIs it rent seeking when people have a choice? There are plenty of car brands that don't do this garbage.
- Ygg2 4y agoI'm pretty sure the other manufacturer are just waiting to see how this pans out before adding their own spin.
- stu432 4y agoI'm pretty sure the end state here is that you just have a car-as-a-service. Now you can use the same car for someone who wants premium as someone who wants basic. After all, you will own nothing and be happy.
- dzhiurgis 4y agoGiven how much regulation is out there to make car road-legal... It's barely open market.
- HyprMusic 4y agoThe heated seat hardware isn't expensive, the blocks can be bought for about $15/chair second hand on their e90 range. I highly doubt it costs BMW any more than a couple of months of the rental cost and I strongly suspect over the life of a car they will get at least a couple of months rent and justify the cost. I, for one, welcome this change. BMW makes retrofit kits for everything because they know people want features that aren't in their spec and they're very expensive. I buy old, second hand cars and I'm at the mercy of the original buyer when it comes to features included. This way, not only do I get the option of a feature that was never bought, but I can enable it only for the couple of months I'd actually need it. Or better yet, I'll do what I do with everything I own and hack it, unlocking everything I can.
- Tildey 4y agoBold of you to assume they will still have the working cloud infrastructure for you to enable that in 20 years
- HyprMusic 4y agoThat's not how it currently works. The car's spec is stored on a central database and set in the specific modules when the car is first produced. You only lose the customised VO codes when you update a module (not a common thing to do, even for car modders) but even then you can often convince a dealer to add your retrofit's VO code to the central database. I strongly suspect that the subscription will piggy-back off of this infrastructure and the subscription will set/unset the VO codes. BMW are fantastic with parts and supporting older car maintenance. Even now I can order 20 year old parts (including electronic modules) new from BMW.
- rlpb 4y ago> Or better yet, I'll do what I do with everything I own and hack it, unlocking everything I can. The problem comes when the manufacturer starts demanding legal "protection" against people hacking their own possessions, or sharing technical information about their possessions.
- 4y ago
- nabla9 4y ago>The company says customers can enable all hardware features for a one-time payment if they prefer. As long buying them once and for all exists, it's just a new option. It might be cheaper for BMW to install these features to every car than manufacture different cars with different options. Even for a buyer who don't want to rent, ability to buy features later is nice option.
- pixxel 4y agoHow much do optional extras weight? Why the fuck should I waste fuel everyday driving these options I don’t want or need.
- nabla9 4y agoYou don't. You don't own it. Products are rarely targeted to whole population. They are marketed to segments. BMW cares only about what their customers think. They don't care about you and they know their average customer.
- vincnetas 4y agoProbably less than your backpack with a laptop. I would guess its effect on fuel consumption is less than error margin.
- HyprMusic 4y agoI've switched out my seats for heated ones and the difference is an extra block on the seat loom and some metallic slivers in the upholstery. I have noticed absolutely no difference in my fuel economy and, being a nerd, I data log everything.
- dinom 4y agoOf course this line of reasoning is extremely prone to a "sorites paradox". What happens when all kinds of other things are also disabled in the vehicle.... the radio? air conditioning compressor? motorized seat adjustment? etc? Pretty soon the weight of those things will actually impact fuel efficiency in a meaningful way. Otherwise why not just drive a tractor trailer around?
- homero 4y agoI'd pay $5/month for navigation but that's it. Yes my Android Auto does it but it's nice if I want to rest my phone or just don't take it.
- mrweasel 4y agoThat might be why they're trying this with heated seat. Navigation failed as a paid product. The quality of builtin navigation was never great. Why get a subscription, when you get a better product for next to nothing. Get a $3 phone mount and using the navigation in your phone. Heated seats are harder to compete with. Still, I don't see this working out in the long run. £15 for heated seats, £10 for the steering wheel? I get that a BMW is an expensive car, £25 per month, for something you might use for at most half the year? I haven't even paid to get the heating fix in my six year old Renault after it broke four years ago, I rarely used it anyway. The problem is that they'll have to take something away that I actually care about. That could be power steering, gears, headlight or breaks. If they do that, they get into issues with safety and will get regulated even hard. There's no point to this subscription nonsense, drop it.
- taylorius 4y agoNot that I'm defending this outrageous rent seeking - but just to play devils advocate. If you use it for half the year, you could presumably subscribe to it for half the year.
- mrweasel 4y agoThat idea crossed my mind as well. The issue with that is the fact that the heater is already installed. So either: * BMW charges everyone for the heater, but don't enable it. * BMW lose money on the installation of the heaters, and overcharge subscribers. The subscribers need to cover the cost of the heaters in the remaining cars. * A combination of the two, where everyone pay part of the heater, but the subscribers still have to pay some part the cost for non-subscribers. There is no way around it though. Either BMW is scamming everyone or the subset of customers who are paying them the most. If I opt for paying for the winter months only, the product is still overpriced. It has to be. It's indefensible. You cannot launch this type of "service" and be the good guy.
- jl6 4y ago> And Kurt Opsahl, general counsel of digital civil liberties campaign group the Electronic Frontier Foundation, tweeted: "A seat heater blocked by software is broken, and the car owner should have the right to repair their seats." Spot on. There should be absolutely no penalty for circumventing whatever DRM is causing these BMWs to be broken.
- extropy 4y agoI think there is none, except you loose some warranty and access to BMW digital services, like updates. As I see this, you are buying two pieces of stuff - the physical car and a software subscription service. Maybe we need to split the two out? Like on PCs you can install any OS you want.
- noir_lord 4y ago> Maybe we need to split the two out? Like on PCs you can install any OS you want. Only on some hardware and only some of the time depending on whether you consider Macs and arm based devices PC's. That we can even do that is a historical accident.
- stepbeek 4y agoI want the software in cars to be locked down. I don't want to be on the road with a car that's running some hacked together software. That's what makes this so infuriating - the risks involved in switching to an open source version of the software are too severe.
- hexo 4y agoI want cars to be disconnected from the internet in the first place, since there is much higher risk being hacked in the middle of highway.
- Mordisquitos 4y agoIf the software that's deciding whether or not you're allowed to heat your seats can connect in any way whatsoever to safety-critical systems in your car, you have bigger problems than running "hacked together software".
- dx034 4y agoI always thought these rental models would be great if they gave you the hardware for free. Not having hundreds of configuration options would be an advantage for buyers and manufacturers. And you'd only pay for what you're using. But there should always be the option to buy the feature outright and charging for hardware and a subscription is obviously greedy.
- jk563 4y ago> The company says customers can enable all hardware features for a one-time payment if they prefer. 4th line in the article, this particular service is indeed purchasable for a one time fee.
- 02020202 4y ago
- thih9 4y agoRelated discussions from 2 days ago: - “BMW heated seats subscription costs $18 per month in South Korea” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32065026 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32065026 - “BMW Makes Heated Seats an $18/Month Subscription Service – Again” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32066565 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32066565
- shreyshnaccount 4y agoLinux for cars? when?
- petepete 4y agoIt's already very much a thing. Installing your own distro on your car is probably quite a way off though. Of all the things I don't want instability in, it's that. https://www.automotivelinux.org https://www.automotivelinux.org
- shreyshnaccount 4y agoI drive arch btw
- selfhoster11 4y agoAs an arch user (BTW), that is quite horrifying. Thank you.
- petepete 4y ago"I installed a new auto steering app written in Rust from the AUR and it's taken seven minutes off my commute"
- shreyshnaccount 4y agoWHEN I SAID ROLLING RELEASE I WASNT TALKING ABOUT THE BREAKS
- rkagerer 4y agoMistitled. Should read "German Automaker Pimps Your Ride to Monetize Hot Ass at Scale"
- spacemanmatt 4y agocriminally underrated comment here
- seydor 4y agoPassing the hot seat to the brits
- wesleywt 4y agoI remember the days, you bought the car and it came with heated seats. They will slowly push this model until the public thinks this microtransactions are normal. Gaming is a good example of how predatory it will become. Just look at Diablo Immortal.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- spacemanmatt 4y agoThat does it, I'm canceling all my BMW orders.
- archi42 4y agoRelated discussion from 2d ago about S.Korea. But I think I read another article (also linked on HN, but can't find it - maybe URL was changed) that didn't mention this to be market-specific. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32065026 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32065026 2d ago, 377 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32066565 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32066565 2d ago, 122 comments (Not to diminish your link, but maybe the other discussions are interesting for those interested in the topic)
- alkonaut 4y agoApart from people doing so by mistake (didn’t read the fine print), shouldn’t this sort if thing be enough to discourage almost all buyers? Seems like a huge risk.
- anovikov 4y agoI knew a guy who built a very profitable business hacking BMW software. Most of BMW dealers and especially used car dealers in Eastern Europe are his clients, his exploits are used on most new and used cars - he started with simply reducing mileage recorded, but proceeded to hack everything else. With this new thing i guess, he'll become a billionaire.
- dzhiurgis 4y agoHow much is it to buy outright?
- hexo 4y agoHow much is to install your own switch?
- AndrewDucker 4y ago£200
- rcarmo 4y agoI find it amazing that governments can spare the time to regulate phone charging ports but completely fail to address this sort of gouging. If I buy hardware that can do one thing, I should not have to pay a license fee to enable that thing.
- efaref 4y agoPhone charger regulations were based on the need to reduce e-waste caused by every phone having a different charger. I think the same principle could be applied here. Heated seats that can't be used are causing increased emissions as the car needs to move them around without actually providing any benefit to the owner, and so should be regulated.
- Gigachad 4y agoOnce you open that can of worms you’d have to regulate SUVs out of existence entirely.
- selfhoster11 4y agoSounds good to me. (Half kidding, half serious. If they are really that harmful, maybe a ban wouldn't be the craziest idea)
- selfhoster11 4y agoRegulating charging ports has huge on-going pay-offs in quality of life for the general public, and cuts down on e-waste. It's not something that should be discounted, and governments should fight both for this AND for device ownership like.
- raverbashing 4y agoFunny how Ars was "fact checking" this the other day saying "it was only in South Korea" Blink once again and they will be at your neck https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/07/no-bmw-is-not-making-heated-seats-a-subscription-for-us-cars/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/07/no-bmw-is-not-making-he...
- RF_Savage 4y agoWell, at least now one can call every new BMW a rental. I wonder what that will do long term for the perception of the brand. "Yeah it's a decent looking car, how much is the rent per month?"
- Gigachad 4y agoYou will own nothing. And you will be happy.
- k_sze 4y agoJust a what-if thought experiment: What if BMW announced they will perpetually donate all of the proceeds to some real charity organizations? Would we still be opposed to this subscription?
- Wildgoose 4y agoYes. We should have the right to decide what charities we support with our money, and not have that freedom taken away from us.
- Wingman4l7 4y agoNot to mention, why should big corporations get to have what would essentially be customer-subsidized tax write-offs?
- Tade0 4y agoAs an eastern European I can assure you the local mechanics will offer a kit to circumvent this eventually. Might be a simple hardware switch somewhere on the dashboard - third owners aren't choosers. Automakers already tune the exact same engine to different power depending on trim level and that is also routinely worked around.
- thebeastie 4y agoIsn’t the story here that they are _renting_ you the heated seat? It’s not like there is any additional service burden on their end that justifies renting it. It’s obviously disgusting, rent seeking practice. But we’re used to manufacturers selling artificially limited products due to economies of scale… and can probably even tolerate it. But _renting_ you the damn extra? Will intel now rent me an extra few hundred peak mhz too?
- automatic6131 4y ago>Will intel now rent me an extra few hundred peak mhz too? I'm _certain_ this is on an internal roadmap for fairly soon
- salex89 4y agoPaying for features to be unlocked is not new, especially in IT, but with a car it just feels wrong somehow. The hardware is there, but not in a sense when you buy a PC without an OS, because that's a multi-purpose machine, you give it context. Heated seats are dedicated hardware, they're there for one purpose only, they're already in your car and you already paid for the expense of making them and continue paying for gas to haul those heavy hunkers around, increasing emissions. Maybe not much per car, but taking into account a bunch of cars, I just see this as reckless. I can sure as hell guarantee they didn't charge them the same amount as regular seats with the hope of you buying their subscription. The software effort is likely next to none, if any. What makes it even funnier is that the one-time payment for a steering wheel is 200 pounds, which is roughly what you would pay for it as additional equipment, if not less. Why funking around with the customer?
- mrkwse 4y agoI'd expect there is significantly more software effort in adding the ability to lock them behind a subscription than actually implementing the toggle to turn them on/adjust the intensity.
- q-base 4y agoOne of the big differences to IT, as I see it, is to do with repairs/support. In IT, a subscription covers repairs/bugs. So what you are paying for is basically maintenance. If we transfer that to cars, then the subscription should also cover maintenance/repairs of the physical parts - in this case the heated seats. But I am pretty sure it does not.
- Terry_Roll 4y agoNow this could be a fake story, ie check your car seats have the elements to heat the seats or enquire with your dealer if your car has this facility, the press will keep stuff quiet if they need to, but if these heated seats do exist in your car and you are a good enough hacker, then you just a got a Brucie Bonus if you play your cards right!
- NumberCruncher 4y agoThis is anything but new. In Germany BMW sells cars since years, where the engine power is throttled by default and the throttling can be disabled for an extra fee. Former colleges of mine are working on the business side of this, trying to figure out the sweet spot for the fees, managing marketing campaigns through every possible digital channels, etc. Serving the devil pays well btw...
- Gordonjcp 4y agoAn interesting parallel to this is the work boats used on a huge construction project here in Scotland, where they had to be limited to a certain speed to be used as crew ferries. Above something like 18 knots they are classed as "high speed ferries" and the relatively slim paperwork turns into a fat wad of legalese. While it was possible to program the engine ECU to limit the power (and therefore speed), the operator deemed it legally safer and potentially less expensive to have the engines swapped with smaller ones, and store the original engines in one of the site warehouses.
- sofixa 4y agoThat makes more sense - it's like networking vendors who sell switches that physically have 48 ports, but you've only paid for 24 and for an extra license you can activate the remainder. It's easier for the vendor to manufacture and supply one single type of hardware, and it's more flexible for the consumer because if your needs evolve (you want to drive faster or have more ports) you can pay just for the upgrade and start using immediately, not a whole replacement. Paying a subscription for a feature that doesn't require any effort om the BMW side (e.g. not the continuously updated infotainment system) is what makes this different.
- mikelward 4y agoI test drove a used 2019 BMW. It didn't have features that are quite common, such as Android Auto and adaptive cruise control. On the one hand, I would have liked the option to turn those features on. On the other hand, once you factor in how much all those extras cost, BMW would lose on price. I guess they've always relied on people who are willing to pay more for a BMW. But now they can sell a base model for a price similar to other manufacturers, and win customers who value the BMW brand over features, then charge for upgrades later.
- imdsm 4y agoHow To Kill Your Sales In One Simple Step
- havblue 4y agoThe 3 series I owned will likely be the most fun car I'll ever own, but the maintenance was always a multi thousand bill a couple times a year. Even a decade ago they were already charging a couple hundred for map upgrades, not that I paid for them. Personally, I'm going to stay away from German vehicles in favor of Japan, Korea and maybe Ford.
- hrbf 4y agoThose are the first signs of the beginning of the end for personal transportation as we know it. Car ownership as a whole is inevitably moving towards a subscription model. Which in turn obsoletes car ownership, which in turn will lead to a different transportation model altogether. It will probably still take decades but this here is where it starts.
- sofixa 4y agoI think that's a way too positive/naïve viewpoint. For the transportation model to change, infrastructure and services are needed (trains, subways, trams, buses, everything around them like stations, signaling, staffing, ticketing system), as well as appropriate density and city layouts ("transit oriented design" in the US, "common fucking sense" everywhere else). Those won't just happen overnight because car ownership is more expensive. There needs to be significant buy-in from the population, politicians, and money. Those are present, to different extents, in most big cities in some places (e.g. Europe(including Russia), China, Singapore) but really aren't in some other like US and Canada. Car ownership would have to get a whole lot more expensive and impractical before Americans who think buses are for the poor and homeless realise the inefficiency of "a vehicle per person" and accept the investment and lifestyle changes needed to switch to a more efficient model.
- jamexcb 4y agoThis is not new for BMW. I have a 2016 and if I want my phone app to work, like location or open/close the doors it's a subscription. And Apple carplay was also a subscription. I tested the app the first year and was so bad... and try to enter am email and app with a wheel to scroll all alphabet just to login in the car. Horrible interface. Once I closed the doors in the app and they never closed. They are not getting new costumers. So they need to find a way to get money from the current owners.
- AndrewDucker 4y agoAs you can buy it out-right for £200, I'm not too fussed. If you could only rent it then that would bother me a lot more.
- selfhoster11 4y agoUntil they alter the deal like Adobe did with Creative Cloud.