14 ms·

Yes, but do customers want plugin-hybrids instead of fully electric?

Gravityloss 4y ago
If it's a lot cheaper for similar range, yes. Or if it has better range for same price (ie compared to a small battery electric car). It depends on your driving profile. For most of the year, I do small trips, below 50 km per day. Then I do maybe 10 200-400 km trips a year. I could get maybe 80% electric kilometers with a modest plugin hybrid.
- seneca 4y ago
  The biggest concern I've heard for hybrids is lifetime maintenance cost. You have both the legacy ICE and transmission, as well as electrical components to maintain. That's a major hypothetical disadvantage to all electric. Does anyone have numbers for this?
  - twblalock 4y ago
    Toyota Priuses have been sold for over 20 years (closer to 25 actually!) and they are very reliable. There are Prius taxis with half a million miles on the original battery.
  - jointpdf 4y ago
    This is a great site for long-term reliability data on many cars: http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Toyota_Prius.html http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Toyota_Prius.html. The Prius has the highest reliability score of any compact in their list. This explains where the data and scores come from: http://www.dashboard-light.com/click-here-first/ http://www.dashboard-light.com/click-here-first/
- twblalock 4y ago
  Plug-in hybrids are in a weird spot in the market. People who have access to home charging can buy long-range EVs which are much nicer to drive. People without access to home charging can buy non-plug-in hybrids or gas-powered cars. Most plug-in hybrids cost a bit more than the non-plug-in versions of the same car and their battery-only driving range is quite short. No matter where you are in the car market, plug-in hybrids are a weird compromise, delivering all the slowness of a hybrid and the requirement to have access to charging like an EV, for more money than a normal hybrid car.
  - tempestn 4y ago
    The other disadvantage hybrids have is that you have all the complexity of a both an electric and a gas car. One nice thing about full electric is that you do away with much of the regular maintenance of an ICE car.
    - Tagbert 4y ago
      There is that, but in a plug-in hybrid, the gas engine does not get used a lot. When it does, it is usually operating in a serial hybrid mode and runs within an optimal range without much stress. Actual wear and tear and maintenance are much less than in a conventional ICEV. You see this with Priuses and Volts. The gas engines live an unstressed life and last much longer. The Volt keeps track of usage and alerts you when it is time for an oil change. They can easily go 18 months between oil changes.
      - tempestn 4y ago
        That's fair, but still a big difference psychologically between 18m and never. Plus various other fluids. Even brake pads and rotors—on pure EVs they basically last forever thanks to regenerative braking. Perhaps modern hybrids do have that benefit as well now though.
        saalweachter 4y ago
        I mean, you take your car in to the shop once a year for its inspection, they take care of it all for you. The only difference with the BEV is they don't charge you $X0 for the oil change.
        ericd 4y ago
        The recommended frequency for Tesla appears to be every two years, check brake fluids and replace cabin air filter. Lots of Tesla owners don’t bother outside of tire changes.
- pornel 4y ago
  The problem is that hybrids are good only for range anxiety. You assume you're getting an EV and a great range — best of both worlds. The reality is that you get worst of both worlds: a crappy low-end EV experience with worst-case charging, and a poor ICE car with even less cabin/cargo space than a pure ICE (and much less than a pure BEV). In hybrids, the battery is very tiny, so lasts for a day or two instead of a week or more. This means having a home charger is an absolute necessity. Small batteries don't support rapid charging, so you won't be able to use many public chargers, even if you were patient enough to wait hours instead of minutes. Horesepower of hybrid cars is advertised as a sum of EV+ICE engines together, but that's a rare scenario. You'll be mostly using underpowered EV-only half when you can, and then the underpowered ICE-only half when you run out of juice. When you're on electricity, you're lugging an ICE engine, and when you're road tripping, you have worse fuel economy due to lugging a useless battery and an EV motor (regen doesn't do much even when it works, and highway cruising is the worst-case scenario for it). In many hybrids transmission/clutch adds a lag, so you don't get the sweet instant torque BEVs are known for. You have worst-case maintenance costs. On top of all the moving parts of an ICE engine and a complex gearbox, your battery will wear out sooner. A small battery will tend to be cycled 100% to 0%, instead of kept in the 80%-50% range that is much gentler for lithium batteries.
  - brianwawok 4y ago
    Exactly. They were made to check compliance boxes and not be a useful car.
    - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
      I don’t think you or GP have owned one. I’m an automotive EE, I’ve had almost all types of vehicles to drive. I really like the Wrangler plug in hybrid. My week to week saw almost zero gas being used, it was like having a full electric and I could still drive wherever I wanted. With 4Low and diff lockers. Loved it! I drive ~12mi a day, works great for me, but I know it’s not for people with commutes.
      - Lio 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
eliseumds 4y ago
In emerging markets, hybrids are a much smarter choice. Here in Brazil there are few fast chargers (say 40kW+), and a great bunch of them are broken anyway. My next car will be a plug-in hybrid. Maybe an electric in 10 years.
- moffkalast 4y ago
  Indeed the infrastructure's just not there yet in most places, and not just Brazil, it sucks basically everywhere. PHEVs can be charged at home and should have enough battery range for those short daily errands across town, while having the range of a normal ICE car for long trips where the lack of fast chargers is most critical. Plus they'll break down more due to higher complexity and the repair shops will love and lobby for them so win-win-win.
  - brianwawok 4y ago
    Yuck oil changes plus battery wear. PHEVs are the best of both worlds, I would recommend them last (after EV and then basic ICE)
    - jader201 4y ago
      Did you mean “worst” of both worlds?
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    Plug-in hybrids and EVs cost less to maintain and repair, finds Consumer Reports https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1129728_plug-in-hybrids-and-evs-cost-less-to-maintain-and-repair-finds-consumer-reports https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1129728_plug-in-hybrids...
    - moffkalast 4y ago
      EVs are indubitably miles ahead in terms of being simple to maintain mechanically since it's a sealed fixed gear system (the software is another matter, but let's disregard that for now), but I don't believe those numbers for the PHEV for a second. You're maintaining both an EV and an ICE at the same time in one car with both needing to interface with each other in complex ways. There's bound to be in the range of 4x as much that can go wrong compared to just one or the other. You'll have the mechanical issues of the ICE coupled with the software problems of an EV. It's an absolutely stupid idea to even consider doing these sort of overcomplicated hybrids, but unfortunately it's also the only way to get around the abysmal battery capacity we currently have.
01100011 4y ago
I love my EV, but I'll be switching to a hybrid when the lease is up. EVs are great but charging is currently a pain. I have no doubt I'll switch back to an EV in a few years, but right now, they're not worth it to me.
eulers_secret 4y ago
As an apartment dweller, I would want a regular hybrid. So would the folks I know who only have street parking. For many of us, electric or plugin just strait-up aren't an option. We get forgotten about all the time, but lots of us exist!
- coryrc 4y ago
  This is why we need charging at where you park for work. Or build densely and pedestrian-friendly enough you don't need any car.
- ericd 4y ago
  The streets of Paris have lots of chargers along the sidewalks, seems like cities elsewhere should be able to pull that off as well. Doesn’t even need to be high powered if they’re intended to be parked at overnight.
  - burntoutfire 4y ago
    There'd have to be charger every 5-6 meters or so along most sidewalks where I live to make electric viable. Certainly not impossible, but sounds like an absolutely massive investment.
    - stevage 4y ago
      Really so much more than a parking meter for every spot?
      - erik_seaberg 4y ago
        No meters in neighborhoods around here, just painted curbs. I only see meters on very dense downtown blocks, and many seem to be solar powered (which seems feasible for an LCD and a card slot).
      - burntoutfire 4y ago
        In my city, there's maybe a parking meter for every 20 spots. Plus, most spots are in non-metered areas. PLUS, the meter does not require a very high voltage power line...

If it's a lot cheaper for similar range, yes. Or if it has better range for same price (ie compared to a small battery electric car). It depends on your driving profile. For most of the year, I do small trips, below 50 km per day. Then I do maybe 10 200-400 km trips a year. I could get maybe 80% electric kilometers with a modest plugin hybrid.

seneca 4y ago
The biggest concern I've heard for hybrids is lifetime maintenance cost. You have both the legacy ICE and transmission, as well as electrical components to maintain. That's a major hypothetical disadvantage to all electric. Does anyone have numbers for this?
- twblalock 4y ago
  Toyota Priuses have been sold for over 20 years (closer to 25 actually!) and they are very reliable. There are Prius taxis with half a million miles on the original battery.
- jointpdf 4y ago
  This is a great site for long-term reliability data on many cars: http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Toyota_Prius.html http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles/Toyota_Prius.html. The Prius has the highest reliability score of any compact in their list. This explains where the data and scores come from: http://www.dashboard-light.com/click-here-first/ http://www.dashboard-light.com/click-here-first/
twblalock 4y ago
Plug-in hybrids are in a weird spot in the market. People who have access to home charging can buy long-range EVs which are much nicer to drive. People without access to home charging can buy non-plug-in hybrids or gas-powered cars. Most plug-in hybrids cost a bit more than the non-plug-in versions of the same car and their battery-only driving range is quite short. No matter where you are in the car market, plug-in hybrids are a weird compromise, delivering all the slowness of a hybrid and the requirement to have access to charging like an EV, for more money than a normal hybrid car.
- tempestn 4y ago
  The other disadvantage hybrids have is that you have all the complexity of a both an electric and a gas car. One nice thing about full electric is that you do away with much of the regular maintenance of an ICE car.
  - Tagbert 4y ago
    There is that, but in a plug-in hybrid, the gas engine does not get used a lot. When it does, it is usually operating in a serial hybrid mode and runs within an optimal range without much stress. Actual wear and tear and maintenance are much less than in a conventional ICEV. You see this with Priuses and Volts. The gas engines live an unstressed life and last much longer. The Volt keeps track of usage and alerts you when it is time for an oil change. They can easily go 18 months between oil changes.
    - tempestn 4y ago
      That's fair, but still a big difference psychologically between 18m and never. Plus various other fluids. Even brake pads and rotors—on pure EVs they basically last forever thanks to regenerative braking. Perhaps modern hybrids do have that benefit as well now though.
      - saalweachter 4y ago
        I mean, you take your car in to the shop once a year for its inspection, they take care of it all for you. The only difference with the BEV is they don't charge you $X0 for the oil change.
        ericd 4y ago
        The recommended frequency for Tesla appears to be every two years, check brake fluids and replace cabin air filter. Lots of Tesla owners don’t bother outside of tire changes.
pornel 4y ago
The problem is that hybrids are good only for range anxiety. You assume you're getting an EV and a great range — best of both worlds. The reality is that you get worst of both worlds: a crappy low-end EV experience with worst-case charging, and a poor ICE car with even less cabin/cargo space than a pure ICE (and much less than a pure BEV). In hybrids, the battery is very tiny, so lasts for a day or two instead of a week or more. This means having a home charger is an absolute necessity. Small batteries don't support rapid charging, so you won't be able to use many public chargers, even if you were patient enough to wait hours instead of minutes. Horesepower of hybrid cars is advertised as a sum of EV+ICE engines together, but that's a rare scenario. You'll be mostly using underpowered EV-only half when you can, and then the underpowered ICE-only half when you run out of juice. When you're on electricity, you're lugging an ICE engine, and when you're road tripping, you have worse fuel economy due to lugging a useless battery and an EV motor (regen doesn't do much even when it works, and highway cruising is the worst-case scenario for it). In many hybrids transmission/clutch adds a lag, so you don't get the sweet instant torque BEVs are known for. You have worst-case maintenance costs. On top of all the moving parts of an ICE engine and a complex gearbox, your battery will wear out sooner. A small battery will tend to be cycled 100% to 0%, instead of kept in the 80%-50% range that is much gentler for lithium batteries.
- brianwawok 4y ago
  Exactly. They were made to check compliance boxes and not be a useful car.
  - SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
    I don’t think you or GP have owned one. I’m an automotive EE, I’ve had almost all types of vehicles to drive. I really like the Wrangler plug in hybrid. My week to week saw almost zero gas being used, it was like having a full electric and I could still drive wherever I wanted. With 4Low and diff lockers. Loved it! I drive ~12mi a day, works great for me, but I know it’s not for people with commutes.
    - Lio 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

eliseumds 4y ago

In emerging markets, hybrids are a much smarter choice. Here in Brazil there are few fast chargers (say 40kW+), and a great bunch of them are broken anyway. My next car will be a plug-in hybrid. Maybe an electric in 10 years.

moffkalast 4y ago
Indeed the infrastructure's just not there yet in most places, and not just Brazil, it sucks basically everywhere. PHEVs can be charged at home and should have enough battery range for those short daily errands across town, while having the range of a normal ICE car for long trips where the lack of fast chargers is most critical. Plus they'll break down more due to higher complexity and the repair shops will love and lobby for them so win-win-win.
- brianwawok 4y ago
  Yuck oil changes plus battery wear. PHEVs are the best of both worlds, I would recommend them last (after EV and then basic ICE)
  - jader201 4y ago
    Did you mean “worst” of both worlds?
- Dylan16807 4y ago
  Plug-in hybrids and EVs cost less to maintain and repair, finds Consumer Reports https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1129728_plug-in-hybrids-and-evs-cost-less-to-maintain-and-repair-finds-consumer-reports https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1129728_plug-in-hybrids...
  - moffkalast 4y ago
    EVs are indubitably miles ahead in terms of being simple to maintain mechanically since it's a sealed fixed gear system (the software is another matter, but let's disregard that for now), but I don't believe those numbers for the PHEV for a second. You're maintaining both an EV and an ICE at the same time in one car with both needing to interface with each other in complex ways. There's bound to be in the range of 4x as much that can go wrong compared to just one or the other. You'll have the mechanical issues of the ICE coupled with the software problems of an EV. It's an absolutely stupid idea to even consider doing these sort of overcomplicated hybrids, but unfortunately it's also the only way to get around the abysmal battery capacity we currently have.

01100011 4y ago

I love my EV, but I'll be switching to a hybrid when the lease is up. EVs are great but charging is currently a pain. I have no doubt I'll switch back to an EV in a few years, but right now, they're not worth it to me.

eulers_secret 4y ago

As an apartment dweller, I would want a regular hybrid. So would the folks I know who only have street parking. For many of us, electric or plugin just strait-up aren't an option. We get forgotten about all the time, but lots of us exist!

coryrc 4y ago
This is why we need charging at where you park for work. Or build densely and pedestrian-friendly enough you don't need any car.
ericd 4y ago
The streets of Paris have lots of chargers along the sidewalks, seems like cities elsewhere should be able to pull that off as well. Doesn’t even need to be high powered if they’re intended to be parked at overnight.
- burntoutfire 4y ago
  There'd have to be charger every 5-6 meters or so along most sidewalks where I live to make electric viable. Certainly not impossible, but sounds like an absolutely massive investment.
  - stevage 4y ago
    Really so much more than a parking meter for every spot?
    - erik_seaberg 4y ago
      No meters in neighborhoods around here, just painted curbs. I only see meters on very dense downtown blocks, and many seem to be solar powered (which seems feasible for an LCD and a card slot).
    - burntoutfire 4y ago
      In my city, there's maybe a parking meter for every 20 spots. Plus, most spots are in non-metered areas. PLUS, the meter does not require a very high voltage power line...