7 ms·

How is this better than Visa and MC?

Centmo 4y ago
The 1.5-3.5% credit card processing fee for starters. Also, you can't use a CC to send money peer-to-peer globally at near-zero cost.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  > The 1.5-3.5% credit card processing fee for starters. Compared to... 1 dollar, no, 15 dollars, no, 5 dollars, no, 65 dollars, no, ... transaction fees for Bitcoin.
  - Centmo 4y ago
    How much are Lightning transaction fees?
    - hiq 4y ago
      More relevant: how much are Lightning transaction costs?
    - bubersson 4y ago
      Between 1 to 100 satoshi usually - so fractions of a cent. (1 BTC = 100 000 000 sats)
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      Same. Lightning gets around them by bunching a bunch of transactions into one bitcoin transaction. Which is exactly what people have been doing with card processing for ages now. And of course there other payment systems around the world that don't rely on card transactions. And don't forget that the entire lightning thing is dependent on banks aka nodes with large sums of money to provide liquidity in the system.
  - bytelines 4y ago
    That creates opprotunities for other Level 1 chains. Solana for example charges $0.00025 per transaction (however this is still denominated in the SOL currency so it will fluctuate). Hedera network is $0.0001 per transaction and is fixed in USD.
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      They have other problems. Solana's entire supply is said to be 5% of the current world population. I'll let you do the math on the rich/poor inequality this entails. Each problem that's dismissed out of hand by crypto proponents is compounded by the endless streams of bigger and worse problems.
      - bytelines 4y ago
        I'm very confused by both of your points. The supply of a cryptocurrency is equal to a person? A crypto token is not a person so I'm guessing you missed a few words there? How is building a competing chain to more efficiently solve a problem (high transaction fees) in a competitive market in any way "dismissing" that problem? That seems the exact opposite of dismissing a problem. Do those new solutions come with new problems? Sure, that's true of any technology. Dynamo-based databases solved high availability and network partitionability of data but come with several trade-offs. That doesn't mean you shouldn't use Cassandra for anything. That said, Solana is not the hill I'm willing to die on and it's hot garbage. Hedera seems good though.
varajelle 4y ago
It keeps many of the properties of bitcoin: - decentralised - trustless - censure resistance Edit: - pseudonymous
- bendtheblock 4y ago
  but what's the benefit of these? - decentralised: why is this good? - trustless: I trust the companies I use, it works - censure resistance: OK, fringe case for most - pseudonymous: why do I want anyone to be able to see my transaction history?
  - Empact 4y ago
    > The root problem with conventional currency is all the trust that's required to make it work. The central bank must be trusted not to debase the currency, but the history of fiat currencies is full of breaches of that trust. Banks must be trusted to hold our money and transfer it electronically, but they lend it out in waves of credit bubbles with barely a fraction in reserve. We have to trust them with our privacy, trust them not to let identity thieves drain our accounts. Their massive overhead costs make micropayments impossible. — Satoshi, 2009-02-11 https://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/posts/p2pfoundation/1/#selection-45.1-45.539 https://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/posts/p2pfoundation/1/... > pseudonymous: why do I want anyone to be able to see my transaction history? Transactions are viewable in the blockchain so that every party involved can audit the system and confirm the issuance.
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      > Satoshi, 2009-02-11 Yes. Because society is built in trust. Something crypto world is busy rediscovering.
    - cortesoft 4y ago
      > Banks must be trusted to hold our money and transfer it electronically, but they lend it out in waves of credit bubbles with barely a fraction in reserve. Right, which is why we have regulations on reserve requirements for banks, as well as things like FDIC insurance that guarantees your money in a bank account.
deleted 4y ago
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olalonde 4y ago
Visa and MC could be L5 networks for Bitcoin, why not? Lightning is lower level and more decentralized, but it doesn't solve issues like dispute arbitration which credit cards do.
- lxgr 4y ago
  Settlement is among the least interesting problems that Visa and Mastercard solve for merchants and customers. Yes, being able to settle across currencies pretty efficiently is nice, but the real value is just what you mention: Dispute arbitration and managing liability in case of fraud.

The 1.5-3.5% credit card processing fee for starters. Also, you can't use a CC to send money peer-to-peer globally at near-zero cost.

dmitriid 4y ago
> The 1.5-3.5% credit card processing fee for starters. Compared to... 1 dollar, no, 15 dollars, no, 5 dollars, no, 65 dollars, no, ... transaction fees for Bitcoin.
- Centmo 4y ago
  How much are Lightning transaction fees?
  - hiq 4y ago
    More relevant: how much are Lightning transaction costs?
  - bubersson 4y ago
    Between 1 to 100 satoshi usually - so fractions of a cent. (1 BTC = 100 000 000 sats)
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    Same. Lightning gets around them by bunching a bunch of transactions into one bitcoin transaction. Which is exactly what people have been doing with card processing for ages now. And of course there other payment systems around the world that don't rely on card transactions. And don't forget that the entire lightning thing is dependent on banks aka nodes with large sums of money to provide liquidity in the system.
- bytelines 4y ago
  That creates opprotunities for other Level 1 chains. Solana for example charges $0.00025 per transaction (however this is still denominated in the SOL currency so it will fluctuate). Hedera network is $0.0001 per transaction and is fixed in USD.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    They have other problems. Solana's entire supply is said to be 5% of the current world population. I'll let you do the math on the rich/poor inequality this entails. Each problem that's dismissed out of hand by crypto proponents is compounded by the endless streams of bigger and worse problems.
    - bytelines 4y ago
      I'm very confused by both of your points. The supply of a cryptocurrency is equal to a person? A crypto token is not a person so I'm guessing you missed a few words there? How is building a competing chain to more efficiently solve a problem (high transaction fees) in a competitive market in any way "dismissing" that problem? That seems the exact opposite of dismissing a problem. Do those new solutions come with new problems? Sure, that's true of any technology. Dynamo-based databases solved high availability and network partitionability of data but come with several trade-offs. That doesn't mean you shouldn't use Cassandra for anything. That said, Solana is not the hill I'm willing to die on and it's hot garbage. Hedera seems good though.

varajelle 4y ago

It keeps many of the properties of bitcoin: - decentralised - trustless - censure resistance Edit: - pseudonymous

bendtheblock 4y ago
but what's the benefit of these? - decentralised: why is this good? - trustless: I trust the companies I use, it works - censure resistance: OK, fringe case for most - pseudonymous: why do I want anyone to be able to see my transaction history?
- Empact 4y ago
  > The root problem with conventional currency is all the trust that's required to make it work. The central bank must be trusted not to debase the currency, but the history of fiat currencies is full of breaches of that trust. Banks must be trusted to hold our money and transfer it electronically, but they lend it out in waves of credit bubbles with barely a fraction in reserve. We have to trust them with our privacy, trust them not to let identity thieves drain our accounts. Their massive overhead costs make micropayments impossible. — Satoshi, 2009-02-11 https://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/posts/p2pfoundation/1/#selection-45.1-45.539 https://satoshi.nakamotoinstitute.org/posts/p2pfoundation/1/... > pseudonymous: why do I want anyone to be able to see my transaction history? Transactions are viewable in the blockchain so that every party involved can audit the system and confirm the issuance.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    > Satoshi, 2009-02-11 Yes. Because society is built in trust. Something crypto world is busy rediscovering.
  - cortesoft 4y ago
    > Banks must be trusted to hold our money and transfer it electronically, but they lend it out in waves of credit bubbles with barely a fraction in reserve. Right, which is why we have regulations on reserve requirements for banks, as well as things like FDIC insurance that guarantees your money in a bank account.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

olalonde 4y ago

Visa and MC could be L5 networks for Bitcoin, why not? Lightning is lower level and more decentralized, but it doesn't solve issues like dispute arbitration which credit cards do.

lxgr 4y ago
Settlement is among the least interesting problems that Visa and Mastercard solve for merchants and customers. Yes, being able to settle across currencies pretty efficiently is nice, but the real value is just what you mention: Dispute arbitration and managing liability in case of fraud.