12 ms·

Truckers plan LA/Long Beach work stoppage Wednesday to protest AB5

89 points by tomohawk 4y ago

EricE 4y ago
"We're from the government and here to help!" Indeed.
anon291 4y ago
People need to leave california. Literally anywhere else in the US, even other blue states, are more free than California. Even just moving up to Oregon, things are better. Eventually, maybe i'll make my way to a state where people can actually breathe free.
AustinDev 4y ago
Good for them.
- BoorishBears 4y ago
  AB5 should not be repealed. I wouldn't be surprised if Uber and co were indirectly funding this effort. In fact after writing that I decided to investigate my suspicions, and one of the first results that turns up is the trucking organization spearheading this (Caltrux) hosting Uber Freight for a seminar... Seeing as Caltrux has pages listing access to their audience as a sponsorship benefit, how much do you want to guess Uber managed to funnel through that?
  - jamiequint 4y ago
  - vinay427 4y ago
    Ridesharing companies such as Uber and Lyft already won an exception to AB5, mostly through funding what ended up the most expensive ballot measure in the state's history, just to have that apparently struck down by the Alameda County Superior Court [1]. I wouldn't be surprised if they're funneling money into these protests/strikes as well, but I assume they would be willing to directly target rideshare users for this purpose. [1] https://www.sfchronicle.com/tech/article/Prop-22-the-gig-worker-exemption-for-Uber-and-16401915.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/tech/article/Prop-22-the-gig-wor...
    - anon291 4y ago
      It's crazy to me a court can strike down a voter proposition that is otherwise not unconstitutional.
      - vinay427 4y ago
        What do you mean by “otherwise not unconstitutional?” I suppose the point of the ruling is its unconstitutionality, and the state of California is one of the only places in the world in which voters are free to change that through a constitutional referendum.
    - BoorishBears 4y ago
      I don't get what this comment is trying to say? > I wouldn't be surprised if they're funneling money into these protests/strikes as well, but I assume they would be willing to directly target rideshare users for this purpose. Directly targeting rideshare users isn't orthogonal to "indirectly" funding truckers fighting AB5 when "Uber Freight" is a thing and Prop 22 already failed (which was their attempt at reaching users directly). They can (and would) do both.
      - vinay427 4y ago
        It’s easier to interpret without starting with the assumption that comment replies are for disagreements. It sounds like you more or less rephrased what I said.
- bergenty 4y ago
  Why? Do they like paying for their own healthcare, repairs and working for no benefits?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - smeej 4y ago
    Probably. Contractors typically get paid significantly more, like 50%+ more, than employees, and then can make their own decisions about how they want to repair their equipment, what kind of insurance is worth having, and how they want to save and invest their money. When I worked as an employee, my company got to decide how much to spend on repairs. It was never economical. I could absolutely have saved 30-40% on the cost, easily. I also only had a short list of health insurance plans available to me, all of which were expensive, none of which were well-tailored to my needs. And my retirement "benefits" included a 401(k) with such high fees I'd have been better off socking away money in a literal sock. And all this was combined with the fact that they paid me significantly less. As a contractor, I take home MUCH more money, I have my repairs done by people I trust who do good work at fair prices (rather than those that have formal agreements with the company), I have healthcare that suits me, and I am investing significantly more money for retirement in much better plans. People who would rather operate as employees and settle for the crummy options their employers provide because they don't want to or don't think they could do the work to make better arrangements on their own should be free to do so. But what possible right do they have to hold me back, to tell me I shouldn't get to make my life better by working independently and running my work as a business I control?
    - EricE 4y ago
      Thank you. The real problem is all of the above advantages you cite only happened because you thought for and took care of yourself. Most people can't seem to be bothered. They think that if only "the government" would do it for them then they could be happy doing other stuff. Ha!
      - 4y ago
bombcar 4y ago
The Interstate Commerce Clause: for regulating everything except actual interstate commerce, apparently.
- nohuck13 4y ago
  This is a California state law.
  - tastyfreeze 4y ago
    As long as it only affects owner operators that remain in California you are right. However, it is the obligation of the Federal government to strike down state laws that interfere with the flow of goods between states.
- tomohawk 4y ago
  The term 'regulate' in the ICC means 'to make normal'. At the time of the ratification, power was given to Congress to make interstate commerce normal instead of exceptional. It took away the power of the states to tax interstate commerce and impose other impediments.
UncleEntity 4y ago
The company I work for won’t let any Californians be owner/operators because of stuff like this. I was pretty surprised when I came back to trucking after ~12 years they would let people lease trucks right off the street with zero experience as this seems to me to be a recipe for disaster but it is apparently good for their bottom line to have them running around paying all the costs and taking all the financial risks. If they fail they walk away and the company just finds someone else to run the truck. Don’t know the failure rate but I imagine it is fairly high, a couple bad weeks without any financial cushion and you’re in a world of hurt. Judging from the messages my dispatcher sends out every once in a while (I’m on an owner/operator fleet but am technically a company driver) there’s a lot of people struggling to make their numbers so they can do fun stuff like eating. Not saying it’s all bad, plenty of people make money doing this, just maybe have them get some experience before letting them take on the full responsibility of running a business. Interesting thing I found a while back on what the trucking companies are up to with the independent contractor stuff -> https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/17/17-340/55697/20180727121808059_36668%20pdf%20Final%20Brief.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/17/17-340/55697/20180...
IronWolve 4y ago
2/3rds of truckers in california are owner operators, which is good. The bad, Lease Operators are being abused, its basically the company store, not enough money to pay the bills. Basically micro-management, buy gas from the company, company repairs, not allowed to run their own loads. The companies started making their main revenue off lease operators. So the trucking companies put lots of political money to get AB5 passed (while Uber was excluded), its a profit model for them. Instead of making rules for lease operators to not be abused by Trucking companies, the state included all owner operators. The end, Trucking companies just excluded CA based owner operators, and are hiring out of state LLC (Most likely South Dakota), end run around the law, and keeps their lease money. Simple, bypass the law. So truckers can 1. Become an employee 2. Become an owner operator and do your own freight 3. Owner Operators will move their LLC out of state and keep working. Also AB5 isn't just for Truckers, its for all gig workers.
- mseidl 4y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phieTCxQRLA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phieTCxQRLA Last week tonight did a video about truckers. And it sucks a lot.
- MrBuddyCasino 4y ago
  I think the Teamsters union is also involved in this grift. "Nice truck you have there, how come you don't pay your dues to Il Signore?"
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
NohatCoder 4y ago
It is funny how the main source of this story is the guy who runs a business that profits off "independent contractors". It is almost as if the people who are mad about this are not actually a significant portion of the independent contractors.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  The people that like AB5 are the mega fleets (Swify, Schnieder, etc). The people that don't are literally everyone else in the industry. Considering that almost everyone in the industry started working for a mega fleet and got out as soon as they were able I'm gonna side with them. The fact that the OOIDA is lobbying against this is also a pretty strong data point. I think that constitutes a stronger signal than some internet comment hurring and durring about how 1099ing drivers is exploitative based on a few data points in one B2C industry.
- smeej 4y ago
  I'm not sure how Reimer (assuming that's the guy you're talking about) counts as the "main source" here. There are several other people quoted, including owner operators and someone responsible for oversight of the port. There is also researched factual information about the legal status of the relevant laws. Singling out that one guy as the "main source" doesn't make much sense here.
  - NohatCoder 4y ago
    Reimer and Aboudi are both "non-employers", they make up the bulk of citations. Sanfield say basically nothing. And then there is anonymous person to represent independent contractors, because apparently it was really hard to get someone from that class to say what the author of the article wanted to write.
    - smeej 4y ago
      Either that or it's a lot harder to get OTR truck drivers who run their own businesses as independent contractors to sit down in one place or take a phone call, which they're not supposed to do while driving, than it is to go to the port in question or contact the offices of a guy with a desk job.
sorethescore 4y ago
Workers should be entitled to a minimum wage, business expense reimbursements, employee benefits, rest breaks, and all the other benefits afforded to employees under California state law. AB5 is a good law and should be implemented Federally.
- smeej 4y ago
  People who run their own businesses using their own equipment (truck owner operators) should be free to negotiate their own contracts with whomever they choose to work for under whatever terms both parties deem acceptable.
  - anon291 4y ago
    Yeah I don't get it. The drivers own their trucks. This makes finding a new job exceptionally easy and there's no capital expenditure on behalf of the hiring company for new equipment. Moreover, truckers are free to change between shippers as much as they want.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  Employees should be entitled to employee benefits. Business owners should not. If I start a business to write iPhone apps, who exactly should be responsible for paying me a minimum wage to do that, covering my business expenses, and affording me health insurance until my app business is self-sustaining (which might never happen)?
Vosporos 4y ago
Full support to the truckers!
encryptluks2 4y ago
- anon291 4y ago
  truck drivers are not minimum wage earners. This whole thing is utter nonsense. I know truck drivers from California who've raised large families on their wages.
  - encryptluks2 4y ago
    The point is that the classification of independent contractors is almost entirely used to circumvent employee protections. I believe California is likely simply applying the correct definition of an employee, as there are multiple state and federal tests to determine if an employee is an independent contractor or not. However, I do think a lot of these people are just manipulated by their employers and politicians to act against their own best interests in making that determination. If companies don't want employees classified as employees, then they shouldn't treat them like one.
    - anon291 4y ago
      Except the contractors often like that they get to make their own rules. Truckers are not the kind of people who like having a normal boss.
      - encryptluks2 4y ago
        Truckers are not getting to make their own rules. That is the whole point of this. They are being treated like independent contractors, when in fact they are not.
        encryptluks2 4y ago
        What I meant here was that they are being treated like employees.
tick_tock_tick 4y ago
AB5 was one of the worst laws I've even seen written then to put icing on the case Uber&Lyft (the ones who there were trying to target) got themselves an exception by going straight to the voters (prop 22) so everyone else needs to deal with the fallout of a shitty law except the target. The state should work to move benefits away from the employer employee relationship rather then make damn sure you need to work until you die to keep benefits. In a lot of ways it really feels like CA is just trying to offload their job onto private companies.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  > The state should work to move benefits away from the employer employee relationship rather then make damn sure you need to work until you die to keep benefits. In a lot of ways it really feels like CA is just trying to offload their job onto private companies. Almost every society wide issue in the US follows the same formula because voters will always vote for lower taxes and this can be done by outsourcing the obligation to non governments and/or means testing it so certain portions of the population benefit and others do not. And then you play politics with it for the next 50 years because any solution will have to take from one portion of the population to give to another. A universal benefit from the beginning would be ideal and avoid all this, but is politically impossible because the politician proposing it will never be elected due to higher taxes now. Education, healthcare, quality of life at work, etc.
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    >And then you play politics with it for the next 50 years because any solution will have to take from one portion of the population to give to another. Moving things to the "government" bucket doesn't in any way solve this. Try and cut something from the defense budget if you don't believe me.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Is the defense budget not an example of what I am referring to? All the politicians in the areas benefiting from the “defense” spending will make it a priority to prevent cuts in their region, which taken together, is basically everywhere in the US so all the politicians are in aligned. Society wide benefits are have to be addressed by the government. That is the whole point of the government.
sbuttgereit 4y ago
I see a lot of comments talking about how this law effects truckers with some commentary about Uber/Lyft type gig workers (who are now exempted). Don't forget that the blast area of this law is substantially larger than that. I am a independent technology consultant living in the Bay Area. AB 5 significantly complicates my ability to find clients because many of the most obvious clients (other technology related Bay Area companies) are essentially excluded from contracting with me. From https://insight.ieeeusa.org/articles/ab-5-and-ieee-consultants/ https://insight.ieeeusa.org/articles/ab-5-and-ieee-consultan... [AB5] contains a long list of exemptions from the new rules — professions that do not fall under the new definitions. One of those exemptions is for engineers — but only for licensed engineers. This narrow exemption will work for professional licensed engineers, but not for most technical professionals. While the article does talk about the exemptions for business-to-business relationships so long as you've established things like LLCs and deal in written contracts with clients (something I was already doing, so not such a problem for me personally), it also talks about the issues with even this: Complicating the business exemption is wording in AB 5 that requires contracts between consulting companies and their clients to meet a set of 12 criteria. Most of these are benign (you must have a written contract, you must have a business license), but others are more troubling. For example, consulting companies must have “contracts with other businesses to provide the same or similar services and maintains a clientele without restrictions from the hiring entity.” The problem is that some contractors work with just one company. These consultants may want to branch out and find at least one other client. On the other hand, courts in Massachusetts and New Jersey have ruled that similar language in those states’ laws does NOT mean consultants need to have more than one client, only that they could have additional clients if they chose to. California courts don’t have to consider how the law is interpreted in other states, but they generally give other states’ legal opinions weight. A final problem with the business exemption is that several criteria, including the one above, assume that the consulting company is already in business. That could make it hard to become a consulting company. Getting your first client will be difficult if you first have to prove you have other clients. What this means is that even though I can meet these tests, for many of my prospects having to sort out whether or not they can contract with me on a business-to-business basis is just overhead for them. Better for them to just give up on the idea of contracting with me and just put up a job posting or hire a larger company. I strongly support the repeal of this law. There is often times nothing worse than to be the "beneficiary" of the good intentions of others.
IYasha 4y ago
I respect and support people who are willing to stand up for their rights. Even when protests created problems for me (which, to be honest, were tolerable), I did not complain. Good luck to all independent workers out there!
adav 4y ago
AB5 seems similar to IR35 in the UK.
matt321 4y ago
This worked in Canada.... Oh wait no id didn't. I wonder if the US government will extort people back to work if their trucker protest disrupts the bread and circuses.

89 points by tomohawk 4y ago

"We're from the government and here to help!" Indeed.

People need to leave california. Literally anywhere else in the US, even other blue states, are more free than California. Even just moving up to Oregon, things are better. Eventually, maybe i'll make my way to a state where people can actually breathe free.

AustinDev 4y ago

Good for them.

BoorishBears 4y ago
AB5 should not be repealed. I wouldn't be surprised if Uber and co were indirectly funding this effort. In fact after writing that I decided to investigate my suspicions, and one of the first results that turns up is the trucking organization spearheading this (Caltrux) hosting Uber Freight for a seminar... Seeing as Caltrux has pages listing access to their audience as a sponsorship benefit, how much do you want to guess Uber managed to funnel through that?
- jamiequint 4y ago
- vinay427 4y ago
  Ridesharing companies such as Uber and Lyft already won an exception to AB5, mostly through funding what ended up the most expensive ballot measure in the state's history, just to have that apparently struck down by the Alameda County Superior Court [1]. I wouldn't be surprised if they're funneling money into these protests/strikes as well, but I assume they would be willing to directly target rideshare users for this purpose. [1] https://www.sfchronicle.com/tech/article/Prop-22-the-gig-worker-exemption-for-Uber-and-16401915.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/tech/article/Prop-22-the-gig-wor...
  - anon291 4y ago
    It's crazy to me a court can strike down a voter proposition that is otherwise not unconstitutional.
    - vinay427 4y ago
      What do you mean by “otherwise not unconstitutional?” I suppose the point of the ruling is its unconstitutionality, and the state of California is one of the only places in the world in which voters are free to change that through a constitutional referendum.
  - BoorishBears 4y ago
    I don't get what this comment is trying to say? > I wouldn't be surprised if they're funneling money into these protests/strikes as well, but I assume they would be willing to directly target rideshare users for this purpose. Directly targeting rideshare users isn't orthogonal to "indirectly" funding truckers fighting AB5 when "Uber Freight" is a thing and Prop 22 already failed (which was their attempt at reaching users directly). They can (and would) do both.
    - vinay427 4y ago
      It’s easier to interpret without starting with the assumption that comment replies are for disagreements. It sounds like you more or less rephrased what I said.
bergenty 4y ago
Why? Do they like paying for their own healthcare, repairs and working for no benefits?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- smeej 4y ago
  Probably. Contractors typically get paid significantly more, like 50%+ more, than employees, and then can make their own decisions about how they want to repair their equipment, what kind of insurance is worth having, and how they want to save and invest their money. When I worked as an employee, my company got to decide how much to spend on repairs. It was never economical. I could absolutely have saved 30-40% on the cost, easily. I also only had a short list of health insurance plans available to me, all of which were expensive, none of which were well-tailored to my needs. And my retirement "benefits" included a 401(k) with such high fees I'd have been better off socking away money in a literal sock. And all this was combined with the fact that they paid me significantly less. As a contractor, I take home MUCH more money, I have my repairs done by people I trust who do good work at fair prices (rather than those that have formal agreements with the company), I have healthcare that suits me, and I am investing significantly more money for retirement in much better plans. People who would rather operate as employees and settle for the crummy options their employers provide because they don't want to or don't think they could do the work to make better arrangements on their own should be free to do so. But what possible right do they have to hold me back, to tell me I shouldn't get to make my life better by working independently and running my work as a business I control?
  - EricE 4y ago
    Thank you. The real problem is all of the above advantages you cite only happened because you thought for and took care of yourself. Most people can't seem to be bothered. They think that if only "the government" would do it for them then they could be happy doing other stuff. Ha!
    - 4y ago

bombcar 4y ago

The Interstate Commerce Clause: for regulating everything except actual interstate commerce, apparently.

nohuck13 4y ago
This is a California state law.
- tastyfreeze 4y ago
  As long as it only affects owner operators that remain in California you are right. However, it is the obligation of the Federal government to strike down state laws that interfere with the flow of goods between states.
tomohawk 4y ago
The term 'regulate' in the ICC means 'to make normal'. At the time of the ratification, power was given to Congress to make interstate commerce normal instead of exceptional. It took away the power of the states to tax interstate commerce and impose other impediments.

UncleEntity 4y ago

The company I work for won’t let any Californians be owner/operators because of stuff like this. I was pretty surprised when I came back to trucking after ~12 years they would let people lease trucks right off the street with zero experience as this seems to me to be a recipe for disaster but it is apparently good for their bottom line to have them running around paying all the costs and taking all the financial risks. If they fail they walk away and the company just finds someone else to run the truck. Don’t know the failure rate but I imagine it is fairly high, a couple bad weeks without any financial cushion and you’re in a world of hurt. Judging from the messages my dispatcher sends out every once in a while (I’m on an owner/operator fleet but am technically a company driver) there’s a lot of people struggling to make their numbers so they can do fun stuff like eating. Not saying it’s all bad, plenty of people make money doing this, just maybe have them get some experience before letting them take on the full responsibility of running a business. Interesting thing I found a while back on what the trucking companies are up to with the independent contractor stuff -> https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/17/17-340/55697/20180727121808059_36668%20pdf%20Final%20Brief.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/17/17-340/55697/20180...

IronWolve 4y ago

2/3rds of truckers in california are owner operators, which is good. The bad, Lease Operators are being abused, its basically the company store, not enough money to pay the bills. Basically micro-management, buy gas from the company, company repairs, not allowed to run their own loads. The companies started making their main revenue off lease operators. So the trucking companies put lots of political money to get AB5 passed (while Uber was excluded), its a profit model for them. Instead of making rules for lease operators to not be abused by Trucking companies, the state included all owner operators. The end, Trucking companies just excluded CA based owner operators, and are hiring out of state LLC (Most likely South Dakota), end run around the law, and keeps their lease money. Simple, bypass the law. So truckers can 1. Become an employee 2. Become an owner operator and do your own freight 3. Owner Operators will move their LLC out of state and keep working. Also AB5 isn't just for Truckers, its for all gig workers.

mseidl 4y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phieTCxQRLA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phieTCxQRLA Last week tonight did a video about truckers. And it sucks a lot.
MrBuddyCasino 4y ago
I think the Teamsters union is also involved in this grift. "Nice truck you have there, how come you don't pay your dues to Il Signore?"
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

NohatCoder 4y ago

It is funny how the main source of this story is the guy who runs a business that profits off "independent contractors". It is almost as if the people who are mad about this are not actually a significant portion of the independent contractors.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
The people that like AB5 are the mega fleets (Swify, Schnieder, etc). The people that don't are literally everyone else in the industry. Considering that almost everyone in the industry started working for a mega fleet and got out as soon as they were able I'm gonna side with them. The fact that the OOIDA is lobbying against this is also a pretty strong data point. I think that constitutes a stronger signal than some internet comment hurring and durring about how 1099ing drivers is exploitative based on a few data points in one B2C industry.
smeej 4y ago
I'm not sure how Reimer (assuming that's the guy you're talking about) counts as the "main source" here. There are several other people quoted, including owner operators and someone responsible for oversight of the port. There is also researched factual information about the legal status of the relevant laws. Singling out that one guy as the "main source" doesn't make much sense here.
- NohatCoder 4y ago
  Reimer and Aboudi are both "non-employers", they make up the bulk of citations. Sanfield say basically nothing. And then there is anonymous person to represent independent contractors, because apparently it was really hard to get someone from that class to say what the author of the article wanted to write.
  - smeej 4y ago
    Either that or it's a lot harder to get OTR truck drivers who run their own businesses as independent contractors to sit down in one place or take a phone call, which they're not supposed to do while driving, than it is to go to the port in question or contact the offices of a guy with a desk job.

sorethescore 4y ago

Workers should be entitled to a minimum wage, business expense reimbursements, employee benefits, rest breaks, and all the other benefits afforded to employees under California state law. AB5 is a good law and should be implemented Federally.

smeej 4y ago
People who run their own businesses using their own equipment (truck owner operators) should be free to negotiate their own contracts with whomever they choose to work for under whatever terms both parties deem acceptable.
- anon291 4y ago
  Yeah I don't get it. The drivers own their trucks. This makes finding a new job exceptionally easy and there's no capital expenditure on behalf of the hiring company for new equipment. Moreover, truckers are free to change between shippers as much as they want.
sokoloff 4y ago
Employees should be entitled to employee benefits. Business owners should not. If I start a business to write iPhone apps, who exactly should be responsible for paying me a minimum wage to do that, covering my business expenses, and affording me health insurance until my app business is self-sustaining (which might never happen)?

Vosporos 4y ago

Full support to the truckers!

encryptluks2 4y ago

anon291 4y ago
truck drivers are not minimum wage earners. This whole thing is utter nonsense. I know truck drivers from California who've raised large families on their wages.
- encryptluks2 4y ago
  The point is that the classification of independent contractors is almost entirely used to circumvent employee protections. I believe California is likely simply applying the correct definition of an employee, as there are multiple state and federal tests to determine if an employee is an independent contractor or not. However, I do think a lot of these people are just manipulated by their employers and politicians to act against their own best interests in making that determination. If companies don't want employees classified as employees, then they shouldn't treat them like one.
  - anon291 4y ago
    Except the contractors often like that they get to make their own rules. Truckers are not the kind of people who like having a normal boss.
    - encryptluks2 4y ago
      Truckers are not getting to make their own rules. That is the whole point of this. They are being treated like independent contractors, when in fact they are not.
      - encryptluks2 4y ago
        What I meant here was that they are being treated like employees.

tick_tock_tick 4y ago

AB5 was one of the worst laws I've even seen written then to put icing on the case Uber&Lyft (the ones who there were trying to target) got themselves an exception by going straight to the voters (prop 22) so everyone else needs to deal with the fallout of a shitty law except the target. The state should work to move benefits away from the employer employee relationship rather then make damn sure you need to work until you die to keep benefits. In a lot of ways it really feels like CA is just trying to offload their job onto private companies.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
> The state should work to move benefits away from the employer employee relationship rather then make damn sure you need to work until you die to keep benefits. In a lot of ways it really feels like CA is just trying to offload their job onto private companies. Almost every society wide issue in the US follows the same formula because voters will always vote for lower taxes and this can be done by outsourcing the obligation to non governments and/or means testing it so certain portions of the population benefit and others do not. And then you play politics with it for the next 50 years because any solution will have to take from one portion of the population to give to another. A universal benefit from the beginning would be ideal and avoid all this, but is politically impossible because the politician proposing it will never be elected due to higher taxes now. Education, healthcare, quality of life at work, etc.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  >And then you play politics with it for the next 50 years because any solution will have to take from one portion of the population to give to another. Moving things to the "government" bucket doesn't in any way solve this. Try and cut something from the defense budget if you don't believe me.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Is the defense budget not an example of what I am referring to? All the politicians in the areas benefiting from the “defense” spending will make it a priority to prevent cuts in their region, which taken together, is basically everywhere in the US so all the politicians are in aligned. Society wide benefits are have to be addressed by the government. That is the whole point of the government.

sbuttgereit 4y ago

I see a lot of comments talking about how this law effects truckers with some commentary about Uber/Lyft type gig workers (who are now exempted). Don't forget that the blast area of this law is substantially larger than that. I am a independent technology consultant living in the Bay Area. AB 5 significantly complicates my ability to find clients because many of the most obvious clients (other technology related Bay Area companies) are essentially excluded from contracting with me. From https://insight.ieeeusa.org/articles/ab-5-and-ieee-consultants/ https://insight.ieeeusa.org/articles/ab-5-and-ieee-consultan... [AB5] contains a long list of exemptions from the new rules — professions that do not fall under the new definitions. One of those exemptions is for engineers — but only for licensed engineers. This narrow exemption will work for professional licensed engineers, but not for most technical professionals. While the article does talk about the exemptions for business-to-business relationships so long as you've established things like LLCs and deal in written contracts with clients (something I was already doing, so not such a problem for me personally), it also talks about the issues with even this: Complicating the business exemption is wording in AB 5 that requires contracts between consulting companies and their clients to meet a set of 12 criteria. Most of these are benign (you must have a written contract, you must have a business license), but others are more troubling. For example, consulting companies must have “contracts with other businesses to provide the same or similar services and maintains a clientele without restrictions from the hiring entity.” The problem is that some contractors work with just one company. These consultants may want to branch out and find at least one other client. On the other hand, courts in Massachusetts and New Jersey have ruled that similar language in those states’ laws does NOT mean consultants need to have more than one client, only that they could have additional clients if they chose to. California courts don’t have to consider how the law is interpreted in other states, but they generally give other states’ legal opinions weight. A final problem with the business exemption is that several criteria, including the one above, assume that the consulting company is already in business. That could make it hard to become a consulting company. Getting your first client will be difficult if you first have to prove you have other clients. What this means is that even though I can meet these tests, for many of my prospects having to sort out whether or not they can contract with me on a business-to-business basis is just overhead for them. Better for them to just give up on the idea of contracting with me and just put up a job posting or hire a larger company. I strongly support the repeal of this law. There is often times nothing worse than to be the "beneficiary" of the good intentions of others.

IYasha 4y ago

I respect and support people who are willing to stand up for their rights. Even when protests created problems for me (which, to be honest, were tolerable), I did not complain. Good luck to all independent workers out there!

adav 4y ago

AB5 seems similar to IR35 in the UK.

matt321 4y ago

This worked in Canada.... Oh wait no id didn't. I wonder if the US government will extort people back to work if their trucker protest disrupts the bread and circuses.