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Every single time there’s an article about Uber exploiting workers/the law the top comments are always some Uber propaganda pieces that seem totally astroturfed

Every single time there’s an article about Uber exploiting workers/the law the top comments are always some Uber propaganda pieces that seem totally astroturfed. Yes, Uber is better than the old system, they can also treat their drivers like human beings.

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
I get a sense that many on this site never want the gravy train to stop and will overlook/downplay anything to keep it going. The slightest scrutiny leading to regulation of one tech giant could be the first domino in a series of regulation against all. I don't think that most are outright shills for Uber but I think that many are unwitting shills for big tech.
- walleeee 4y ago
  We are peculiarly inclined to suppress whatever impugns the security of that to which we have given our allegiance. - Walter Lippman, The Basic Problem of Democracy, 1919 (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1919/11/the-basic-problem-of-democracy/569095/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1919/11/the-bas...)
- user_7832 4y ago
  Thank you for your comment. I also have a similar view - folks working at Facebook et al often might suspect/know what they're doing is misleading at best to illegal (dark patterns for eg), but the cognitive dissonance (esp regarding regulations) is a bit too much. I'm not trying to have a holier than thou approach - lots of people simply need a job, and humans are only human in their actions - but I would be curious to see how opinions of folks working at small startups differ from those working at GAAFA/FAANG etc. (To be clear, opinions are your personal subjective thought and I don't think they can just be "wrong", I'm just curious on if there's a difference in who thinks what how.)
daenz 4y ago
>they can also treat their drivers like human beings. If this was the case, why didn't workers continue what they were doing before they worked for Uber? Did they have no job before Uber, or did they view Uber as an improvement to their previous situation?
- deelowe 4y ago
  In my experience, gig workers are being exploited as they do not take into account their expenses. Most see uber as decent pay until their car starts having issues.
  - daenz 4y ago
    If that is the case, maybe there should be some regulation that compels employers to post full and transparent costs and actual incomes for its employees, all normal costs considered. Then workers would be more likely to make the decision that is best for them, without the possibility of being tricked by the numbers.
    - trs8080 4y ago
      Yes, perhaps more regulations would help the matter. Except Uber also (sometimes illegally) lobbies governments to prevent regulation, as this leak has shown.
  - whittingtonaaon 4y ago
    You can’t blame Uber for workers who make bad decisions, can you?
    - moe091 4y ago
      By that logic any employer could do anything because "working for a bad employer is a bad decision"
      - whittingtonaaon 4y ago
DoctorOetker 4y ago
So not Uber propaganda, but ... Belgium Uber-ing out an F-16 to a Russian oligarch (Kerimov) is ok? While Belgian road traffic victims lay on the road, the ambulances and dispatching services colluded to assign more distant ambulances for maximizing the per km driven profits. That's not a victimless crime: lives, limbs (think infections) and livelihoods (both of the victims and the typical scapegoats who shall carry all the blame, round down all liabilities and round the remaining liability up). Hurray for "socialism", money must roll.
dang 4y ago
Comments like this break the site guidelines. "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html That's because, overwhelmingly, cases like this where people are convinced that something seems "totally astroturfed" turn out to simply be people disagreeing with each other. The community is divided on divisive issues like this one. To a first approximation, it really is as simple as that. Of course there are also various kinds of manipulation, but because of what I said in the previous paragraph, the only legitimate way to address those is to look for evidence—that means something objective, which is not just based on people having opinions that seem obviously wrong or bad (i.e. sufficiently different from one's own). This phenomenon is extremely well established and you can find many years of past explanation about it here: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... . Edit: incidentally, perceptions like "Every single time there's an article about $topic..." are also hopelessly subject to cognitive bias. HN has had many, many threads about Uber which have been dominated by negative sentiment.
- colinmhayes 4y ago
  Thank you Dang. I actually did not mean to insinuate that the posts are astroturfed, in fact them being legitimately held opinions is the most upsetting aspect to me. I feel we’ve got a community of strong critical thinkers here, and I’ve observed a pattern (anecdotal as you point out) of sidestepping on threads about Uber’s legal/moral obligations to their drivers. It pains me to see us selectively using our critical thinking skills when it suits us, and then hunkering down with “so what it’s better for me now” when it doesn’t.
jhgb 4y ago
> Uber is better than the old system You forgot to add "in some places".

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

I get a sense that many on this site never want the gravy train to stop and will overlook/downplay anything to keep it going. The slightest scrutiny leading to regulation of one tech giant could be the first domino in a series of regulation against all. I don't think that most are outright shills for Uber but I think that many are unwitting shills for big tech.

walleeee 4y ago
We are peculiarly inclined to suppress whatever impugns the security of that to which we have given our allegiance. - Walter Lippman, The Basic Problem of Democracy, 1919 (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1919/11/the-basic-problem-of-democracy/569095/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1919/11/the-bas...)
user_7832 4y ago
Thank you for your comment. I also have a similar view - folks working at Facebook et al often might suspect/know what they're doing is misleading at best to illegal (dark patterns for eg), but the cognitive dissonance (esp regarding regulations) is a bit too much. I'm not trying to have a holier than thou approach - lots of people simply need a job, and humans are only human in their actions - but I would be curious to see how opinions of folks working at small startups differ from those working at GAAFA/FAANG etc. (To be clear, opinions are your personal subjective thought and I don't think they can just be "wrong", I'm just curious on if there's a difference in who thinks what how.)

daenz 4y ago

>they can also treat their drivers like human beings. If this was the case, why didn't workers continue what they were doing before they worked for Uber? Did they have no job before Uber, or did they view Uber as an improvement to their previous situation?

deelowe 4y ago
In my experience, gig workers are being exploited as they do not take into account their expenses. Most see uber as decent pay until their car starts having issues.
- daenz 4y ago
  If that is the case, maybe there should be some regulation that compels employers to post full and transparent costs and actual incomes for its employees, all normal costs considered. Then workers would be more likely to make the decision that is best for them, without the possibility of being tricked by the numbers.
  - trs8080 4y ago
    Yes, perhaps more regulations would help the matter. Except Uber also (sometimes illegally) lobbies governments to prevent regulation, as this leak has shown.
- whittingtonaaon 4y ago
  You can’t blame Uber for workers who make bad decisions, can you?
  - moe091 4y ago
    By that logic any employer could do anything because "working for a bad employer is a bad decision"
    - whittingtonaaon 4y ago

DoctorOetker 4y ago

So not Uber propaganda, but ... Belgium Uber-ing out an F-16 to a Russian oligarch (Kerimov) is ok? While Belgian road traffic victims lay on the road, the ambulances and dispatching services colluded to assign more distant ambulances for maximizing the per km driven profits. That's not a victimless crime: lives, limbs (think infections) and livelihoods (both of the victims and the typical scapegoats who shall carry all the blame, round down all liabilities and round the remaining liability up). Hurray for "socialism", money must roll.

dang 4y ago

Comments like this break the site guidelines. "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html That's because, overwhelmingly, cases like this where people are convinced that something seems "totally astroturfed" turn out to simply be people disagreeing with each other. The community is divided on divisive issues like this one. To a first approximation, it really is as simple as that. Of course there are also various kinds of manipulation, but because of what I said in the previous paragraph, the only legitimate way to address those is to look for evidence—that means something objective, which is not just based on people having opinions that seem obviously wrong or bad (i.e. sufficiently different from one's own). This phenomenon is extremely well established and you can find many years of past explanation about it here: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme... . Edit: incidentally, perceptions like "Every single time there's an article about $topic..." are also hopelessly subject to cognitive bias. HN has had many, many threads about Uber which have been dominated by negative sentiment.

colinmhayes 4y ago
Thank you Dang. I actually did not mean to insinuate that the posts are astroturfed, in fact them being legitimately held opinions is the most upsetting aspect to me. I feel we’ve got a community of strong critical thinkers here, and I’ve observed a pattern (anecdotal as you point out) of sidestepping on threads about Uber’s legal/moral obligations to their drivers. It pains me to see us selectively using our critical thinking skills when it suits us, and then hunkering down with “so what it’s better for me now” when it doesn’t.

jhgb 4y ago

> Uber is better than the old system You forgot to add "in some places".