8 ms·

Uber used Greyball fake app to evade police across Europe

141 points by sorokod 4y ago

verbify 4y ago
I'm not a lawyer, but isn't this going to be a pretty big obstruction of justice case?
- dahfizz 4y ago
  IANAL as well, but I would guess not. They didn't destroy evidence (which can be obstruction), they just hid their data. Absent any warrants, I'm not sure what would compel Uber to give the police an accurate live feed of driver locations.
omgmajk 4y ago
This was expected considering they did it in the US long before.
- voidnullpointer 4y ago
sorokod 4y ago
Previously on HN - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13785564 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13785564
steveBK123 4y ago
Most of these Uber leaks have been well known for 5+ years. Hopefully EU regulators do what the US didn't and prosecute some of these clowns.
- FreqSep 4y ago
  I was going to say hopefully EU regulators back off some of the insane Taxi regulations that require you to have 100,000€ or more to…drive people around
  - IceyEC 4y ago
    Check New York City's taxi medallions...
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      NYC’s medallions did have a primary purpose; to control traffic. Manhattan is tiny and taxis represent an outsize amount of traffic since they don’t park most of the day like a commuter car. Uber’s proliferation was associated with a general decline in traffic speeds.
      - eloff 4y ago
        But increasing throughput. Given how shitty US public transport is in general, maybe that's the right tradeoff. New York is one of the best, but still shitty by EU standards.
        wutbrodo 4y ago
        > New York is one of the best, but still shitty by EU standards. If we're talking about concrete things like throughput, the MTA is one of only a few systems with round-the-clock operation, and I don't think anywhere else matches its scale and reach. The filth of the stations are a legitimate complaint...but given that my primary interest is my transit system moving me from place to place, I'd take it over the majority of EU systems in a heartbeat.
        bobthepanda 4y ago
        The system is great, when all services are in good condition. This is fairly rare, particularly on weekends or nights.
        cactus2093 4y ago
        I just recently visited NYC for a week after a few years away. Got in mid-week and was taking the subway around during the day, and thought wow it's really made huge improvements in reliability recently. Trains were all coming quickly and all lines were running. Then the weekend came around and half the lines were being re-routed and waits were much longer with lots of announced delays. The city does a good job, especially by US standards, of making public transit a reliable, affordable way for people to go to and from work. But as far as getting around in day to day life outside of rush hour it is much worse and there's still a big need for Taxis or Uber. And I think with the increase in remote work recently this is more of an issue now than ever. I do have to say I'm impressed by the Apple pay/NFC payment rollout though. No more flimsy Metrocards to worry about swiping and refilling is a nice improvement.
- collegeburner 4y ago
  This is like the least problematic thing Uber has done tho? The "law enforcement" they were fucking with was basically being thugs for enforcing a monopolist power. Not very pro-consumer for the EU to try to go back to shitty overpriced taxi monopolies.
  - sorokod 4y ago
    Would be good to compile that list. In your opinion, how would Greyball rank vs. payed-for research on the benefits of Uber's economic model[1] ? [1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/jul/12/uber-paid-academics-six-figure-sums-for-research-to-feed-to-the-media https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/jul/12/uber-paid-acade...
    - collegeburner 4y ago
      I mean even if Uber paid for it the general consensus in economics is improving market efficiency is a net good. Like yeah obv it sucks for taxi drivers but the position of a lot of governments (EU more than most) is that consumer benefit at the expense of business is fine. So kinda inconsistent for the EU to say they'll go screw with other companies for consumer benefit but then "oh no not the poor cabbies, we can't let the cabbies make less money!" Also there's a lot of rent-seeking in traditional cab industry that comes from stuff like the high cost of entry and the lobbying to keep it in place so taking that out should make a better economic outcome.
      - xorcist 4y ago
        The EU most certainly doesn't legislate taxi regulations. If you think your local legislature is harming competition, speak to your local legislator. EU institutions can't help, by design, unless maybe if the unfair competition infringes your individual rights.
  - black_puppydog 4y ago
    making sure taxis are safe for operation should be equally applied; being uber (and hence "the good guys") should not exempt you. and being the good guys should necessarily include being okay with playing by the rules. if you build an entire UX to avoid that -> fuck you, I don't care what you're replacing you're undermining any benefit you could claim to society
- sschueller 4y ago
  There needs to be an interpol arrest warrant for Travis Kalanick for racketeering. Uber was operating like a mafia family. It doesn't matter that he resigned a while back. This is not acceptable and people need to know they will not get away with it.
  - collegeburner 4y ago
    bruh youre literally talking about taxi companies who ran monopolies for decades with armed thugs ("police") literally running stings on competitors. wtf.
    - p_j_w 4y ago
      GP didn't mention those companies once.
      - collegeburner 4y ago
        the point is taxi companies been doing worse with govt sanction for years. ppl only care now bc govt isn't getting its $$$.
        egberts1 4y ago
        more like bureaucrats (and their families and friends) isnt getting their self-worth of mooching off of the taxpayers; people, not so much.
tasubotadas 4y ago
In a way, Uber was doing similar to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_book_smugglers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_book_smugglers by fighting those absurd laws and regulation.
ST2084 4y ago
Lyft > Uber
- was_a_dev 4y ago
  Lyft doesn't operate in Europe
  - Macha 4y ago
    Neither does Uber, in much of Europe.
- solarkraft 4y ago
  I don't use Taxis much, but FWIW when I last used a Lyft (years ago) the driver told me how much happier he is with Lyft over Uber. ... are Lyft the good guys? Are they just a bit less bad? I'm not sure.
namlem 4y ago
Good. Fuck the taxi monopolies.
- voidnullpointer 4y ago
zxcvbn4038 4y ago
Uber gets all the blame but in NYC the police are well known for impounding they cars of interracial couples as “illegal cabs” at the airport. They have toned it down a lot after news exposure and lawsuits but it still happens. The NYC medallion system led to a lot of abuse - the city auctioned a handful each year, often fetching over a million dollars each, and going to a handful of operators who could afford them. The drivers had to pay up front daily to rent them, the car, and give a portion of their fares also. If you took a car out of the lot you’d be working half the day just to break even with the rental fees. Uber was often a better deal. Post Uber the medallion prices plunged and are now only worth a couple hundred thousand - probably less now. The city makes back some of the money by charging license fees to the app drivers.
- 1337biz 4y ago
  Are there any legit sources for your accusations or is that some weird urban legend?
bayareabadboy 4y ago
Devil's advocate, what's the issue here? I'm obviously have my own biases, but why should I care that European regulators got bamboozled by Uber? Uber is clearly duplicitous, and I only have a hypodermic understanding of this, but were consumers ultimately harmed (other than the obvious wasting of time of the regulators)?
- growse 4y ago
  If your business model depends on breaking the law, then society is harmed.
  - fluoridation 4y ago
    I don't think one necessarily follows from the other.
    - selfhoster11 4y ago
      It does, if the assumption is that laws are passed by a democratic society for the benefit of said society. That's not always the case, but when it comes to something tangential to protecting consumer rights (like this case), evading these laws seems suspicious.
      - voidnullpointer 4y ago
    - bayareabadboy 4y ago
      I agree, although I concede that this rational could be (and often is) used to justify terrible things.
  - solarkraft 4y ago
    It's kind of society's job to fight off that harm. Companies can not expected to be nice.
vemv 4y ago
https://archive.ph/hKdNp https://archive.ph/hKdNp
chunkyguy 4y ago
> Uber had built a dummy version of its own app Is this why Uber had problem controlling the app size? https://eng.uber.com/how-uber-deals-with-large-ios-app-size/ https://eng.uber.com/how-uber-deals-with-large-ios-app-size/
- kmeisthax 4y ago
  Their app size problem is because of an unusual development constraint: they need the user to be able to move halfway across the planet and still have the app work without downloading any new resources. All the UI needs to be preloaded so that, say, if you travel from Rio to Toyko or Cape Town to Jakarta, you get off the plane and can hail a cab on even the flakiest of connections.
dahfizz 4y ago
From reading the article, it seems that Uber displayed fake data in their app when they detected the user was law enforcement. This means that cops could not use the app to locate Uber drivers in real time. I gotta say, I'm not sure I see the problem. Did Uber ever ignore / lie when hit with warrants or subpoenas? On what legal grounds is displaying fake data like this illegal? I think you could make a case that this is obstruction of justice, but Uber never destroyed evidence.

141 points by sorokod 4y ago

verbify 4y ago

I'm not a lawyer, but isn't this going to be a pretty big obstruction of justice case?

dahfizz 4y ago
IANAL as well, but I would guess not. They didn't destroy evidence (which can be obstruction), they just hid their data. Absent any warrants, I'm not sure what would compel Uber to give the police an accurate live feed of driver locations.

omgmajk 4y ago

This was expected considering they did it in the US long before.

voidnullpointer 4y ago

sorokod 4y ago

Previously on HN - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13785564 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13785564

steveBK123 4y ago

Most of these Uber leaks have been well known for 5+ years. Hopefully EU regulators do what the US didn't and prosecute some of these clowns.

FreqSep 4y ago
I was going to say hopefully EU regulators back off some of the insane Taxi regulations that require you to have 100,000€ or more to…drive people around
- IceyEC 4y ago
  Check New York City's taxi medallions...
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    NYC’s medallions did have a primary purpose; to control traffic. Manhattan is tiny and taxis represent an outsize amount of traffic since they don’t park most of the day like a commuter car. Uber’s proliferation was associated with a general decline in traffic speeds.
    - eloff 4y ago
      But increasing throughput. Given how shitty US public transport is in general, maybe that's the right tradeoff. New York is one of the best, but still shitty by EU standards.
      - wutbrodo 4y ago
        > New York is one of the best, but still shitty by EU standards. If we're talking about concrete things like throughput, the MTA is one of only a few systems with round-the-clock operation, and I don't think anywhere else matches its scale and reach. The filth of the stations are a legitimate complaint...but given that my primary interest is my transit system moving me from place to place, I'd take it over the majority of EU systems in a heartbeat.
        bobthepanda 4y ago
        The system is great, when all services are in good condition. This is fairly rare, particularly on weekends or nights.
        cactus2093 4y ago
        I just recently visited NYC for a week after a few years away. Got in mid-week and was taking the subway around during the day, and thought wow it's really made huge improvements in reliability recently. Trains were all coming quickly and all lines were running. Then the weekend came around and half the lines were being re-routed and waits were much longer with lots of announced delays. The city does a good job, especially by US standards, of making public transit a reliable, affordable way for people to go to and from work. But as far as getting around in day to day life outside of rush hour it is much worse and there's still a big need for Taxis or Uber. And I think with the increase in remote work recently this is more of an issue now than ever. I do have to say I'm impressed by the Apple pay/NFC payment rollout though. No more flimsy Metrocards to worry about swiping and refilling is a nice improvement.
collegeburner 4y ago
This is like the least problematic thing Uber has done tho? The "law enforcement" they were fucking with was basically being thugs for enforcing a monopolist power. Not very pro-consumer for the EU to try to go back to shitty overpriced taxi monopolies.
- sorokod 4y ago
  Would be good to compile that list. In your opinion, how would Greyball rank vs. payed-for research on the benefits of Uber's economic model[1] ? [1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/jul/12/uber-paid-academics-six-figure-sums-for-research-to-feed-to-the-media https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/jul/12/uber-paid-acade...
  - collegeburner 4y ago
    I mean even if Uber paid for it the general consensus in economics is improving market efficiency is a net good. Like yeah obv it sucks for taxi drivers but the position of a lot of governments (EU more than most) is that consumer benefit at the expense of business is fine. So kinda inconsistent for the EU to say they'll go screw with other companies for consumer benefit but then "oh no not the poor cabbies, we can't let the cabbies make less money!" Also there's a lot of rent-seeking in traditional cab industry that comes from stuff like the high cost of entry and the lobbying to keep it in place so taking that out should make a better economic outcome.
    - xorcist 4y ago
      The EU most certainly doesn't legislate taxi regulations. If you think your local legislature is harming competition, speak to your local legislator. EU institutions can't help, by design, unless maybe if the unfair competition infringes your individual rights.
- black_puppydog 4y ago
  making sure taxis are safe for operation should be equally applied; being uber (and hence "the good guys") should not exempt you. and being the good guys should necessarily include being okay with playing by the rules. if you build an entire UX to avoid that -> fuck you, I don't care what you're replacing you're undermining any benefit you could claim to society
sschueller 4y ago
There needs to be an interpol arrest warrant for Travis Kalanick for racketeering. Uber was operating like a mafia family. It doesn't matter that he resigned a while back. This is not acceptable and people need to know they will not get away with it.
- collegeburner 4y ago
  bruh youre literally talking about taxi companies who ran monopolies for decades with armed thugs ("police") literally running stings on competitors. wtf.
  - p_j_w 4y ago
    GP didn't mention those companies once.
    - collegeburner 4y ago
      the point is taxi companies been doing worse with govt sanction for years. ppl only care now bc govt isn't getting its $$$.
      - egberts1 4y ago
        more like bureaucrats (and their families and friends) isnt getting their self-worth of mooching off of the taxpayers; people, not so much.

tasubotadas 4y ago

In a way, Uber was doing similar to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_book_smugglers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_book_smugglers by fighting those absurd laws and regulation.

ST2084 4y ago

Lyft > Uber

was_a_dev 4y ago
Lyft doesn't operate in Europe
- Macha 4y ago
  Neither does Uber, in much of Europe.
solarkraft 4y ago
I don't use Taxis much, but FWIW when I last used a Lyft (years ago) the driver told me how much happier he is with Lyft over Uber. ... are Lyft the good guys? Are they just a bit less bad? I'm not sure.

namlem 4y ago

Good. Fuck the taxi monopolies.

voidnullpointer 4y ago

zxcvbn4038 4y ago

Uber gets all the blame but in NYC the police are well known for impounding they cars of interracial couples as “illegal cabs” at the airport. They have toned it down a lot after news exposure and lawsuits but it still happens. The NYC medallion system led to a lot of abuse - the city auctioned a handful each year, often fetching over a million dollars each, and going to a handful of operators who could afford them. The drivers had to pay up front daily to rent them, the car, and give a portion of their fares also. If you took a car out of the lot you’d be working half the day just to break even with the rental fees. Uber was often a better deal. Post Uber the medallion prices plunged and are now only worth a couple hundred thousand - probably less now. The city makes back some of the money by charging license fees to the app drivers.

1337biz 4y ago
Are there any legit sources for your accusations or is that some weird urban legend?

bayareabadboy 4y ago

Devil's advocate, what's the issue here? I'm obviously have my own biases, but why should I care that European regulators got bamboozled by Uber? Uber is clearly duplicitous, and I only have a hypodermic understanding of this, but were consumers ultimately harmed (other than the obvious wasting of time of the regulators)?

growse 4y ago
If your business model depends on breaking the law, then society is harmed.
- fluoridation 4y ago
  I don't think one necessarily follows from the other.
  - selfhoster11 4y ago
    It does, if the assumption is that laws are passed by a democratic society for the benefit of said society. That's not always the case, but when it comes to something tangential to protecting consumer rights (like this case), evading these laws seems suspicious.
    - voidnullpointer 4y ago
  - bayareabadboy 4y ago
    I agree, although I concede that this rational could be (and often is) used to justify terrible things.
- solarkraft 4y ago
  It's kind of society's job to fight off that harm. Companies can not expected to be nice.

vemv 4y ago

https://archive.ph/hKdNp https://archive.ph/hKdNp

chunkyguy 4y ago

> Uber had built a dummy version of its own app Is this why Uber had problem controlling the app size? https://eng.uber.com/how-uber-deals-with-large-ios-app-size/ https://eng.uber.com/how-uber-deals-with-large-ios-app-size/

kmeisthax 4y ago
Their app size problem is because of an unusual development constraint: they need the user to be able to move halfway across the planet and still have the app work without downloading any new resources. All the UI needs to be preloaded so that, say, if you travel from Rio to Toyko or Cape Town to Jakarta, you get off the plane and can hail a cab on even the flakiest of connections.

dahfizz 4y ago

From reading the article, it seems that Uber displayed fake data in their app when they detected the user was law enforcement. This means that cops could not use the app to locate Uber drivers in real time. I gotta say, I'm not sure I see the problem. Did Uber ever ignore / lie when hit with warrants or subpoenas? On what legal grounds is displaying fake data like this illegal? I think you could make a case that this is obstruction of justice, but Uber never destroyed evidence.