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Practically, yes, but Turkey is a sovereign country and it can ask the UN to call it in English whatever it likes. And indeed - they have requested that their o

Practically, yes, but Turkey is a sovereign country and it can ask the UN to call it in English whatever it likes. And indeed - they have requested that their official English-language name be now Türkiye. One of the stated reasons is that Turkey is homophonic with 'turkey' (the thanksgiving meal), which further has a connotation of 'lousy'. This is 100% real, their current leadership is a bit strange: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61671913 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61671913 Of course in reality people will keep on calling them Turkey in practical every day English. But the UN has a policy of honoring such requests by the country itself - probably to avoid meddling in politics.

unmole 4y ago
The UN can pretend that it's English. Just like how it pretends Taiwan isn't a country. There's no reason why we should go along with it.
- vesinisa 4y ago
  Exactly. It's politics, which can take a completely new direction on a whim of a dictator or a regime change. But language, as used in practice, changes much less rapidly.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- sofixa 4y ago
  > Just like how it pretends Taiwan isn't a country That's because it really isn't. It really should be, but a) they don't really claim to be one (until recently they officially claimed they're the "one and only" China, same as the PRC) and according to polls most people there support that status quo; b) nobody of note recognises them to be.. anything really. As far as most of the world, including the UN, are concerned, Taiwan is the losers of the Chinese Civil war that have some limited exceptions (like performing at Olympics). Contrast this with Kosovo who claim to be an independent country and are somewhat recognised.
  - skissane 4y ago
    > That's because it really isn't. What's a "country"? You are talking about "sovereign state"–whether or not Taiwan counts as one, or could, depends on which theory of statehood one supports (constitutive or declarative)–but something can be a "country" without being a sovereign state. The ISO 3166-1 list is officially of countries and "dependent territories", but many people talk of those "dependent territories" (especially the more major ones) as "countries". And then people commonly speak of the constituent countries of the UK (England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales) as "countries" – seems particularly common in British English (and more British-influenced English varieties), but one even hears Americans speak of them in that way at times. Fewer people know this, but the Kingdom of the Netherlands is divided into four constituent countries as well (the Netherlands proper – which includes both the European part and the Caribbean islands of Bonaire, Sint Eustatius, Saba; Aruba; Curaçao; and Sint Maarten). Similarly, the Kingdom of Denmark is also divided into three countries – Denmark proper, the Faroe Islands, and Greenland. And one of France's overseas territories, French Polynesia, is officially classified under French law as an "overseas country" of France. Canada officially recognises Quebec, not as a "country", but as a "nation" (a term which is often used interchangeably with "country"). > Contrast this with Kosovo who claim to be an independent country and are somewhat recognised. Kosovo is recognised by about 50% of the world's states, including all of the G7 states. They've also been accepted as members of several intergovernmental organisations, including the World Bank and IMF. And yet, unlike Taiwan, ISO still won't give them an official country code - ISO gives the reason that they won't give them a code until the UN Statistical Division gives them a code, and I guess the UN Statistical Division sees it as a political hot potato they don't want to touch.
Hamuko 4y ago
>Practically, yes, but Turkey is a sovereign country and it can ask the UN to call it in English whatever it likes. Can China ask for it to be called 中国?
- vesinisa 4y ago
  I presume that might be rejected on the grounds that it is a completely different writing system. But my point is that even if it was accepted, the true common name of China in practical English would still not change. Or did you know there already officially exists countries such as Czechia and The Holy See - much better known in English as The Czech Republic and The Vatican respectively?
  - jasomill 4y ago
    Pedantically, the Holy See[1] is the Pope's jurisdiction, which includes his universal ecclesiastical jurisdiction in addition to territorial control of a sovereign state. This state[2], per the treaty establishing it[3], is properly referred to as "Vatican City State" (Stato della Città del Vaticano). This is understandably confused by the fact that it is the Holy See, not Vatican City State, that maintains foreign relations and participates in international organizations like the UN. This, I assume, is why the official ISO name associated with country code VA was at some point changed from "Vatican City State (Holy See)" to "Holy See (the)"[4]. Interestingly, both entities issue passports[5]. [1] https://www.vatican.va/ https://www.vatican.va/ [2] https://www.vaticanstate.va/ https://www.vaticanstate.va/ [3] https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/archivio/documents/rc_seg-st_19290211_patti-lateranensi_it.html https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/archivi... [4] https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:code:3166:VA https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:code:3166:VA [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_and_Holy_See_passports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_and_Holy_See_passports
- em500 4y ago
  The UN maintains a list of official country names in six languages (English, French, Spanish, Russian, Chinese, Arabic) [1], and UN representatives of the countries can request how they want their country to be written in any of those. I guess China could request to be called 中国 in English communication in the UN and/or ISO (if I understand your question correctly). The main issue is that if you put up to much friction for other language speakers, they're just going to ignore you/the official standards and do whatever they want, so it becomes a bit self-defeating. I expect this to happen to Turkey as well: English speakers will probably mostly keep using "Turkey" rather than "Türkiye" indefinitely, except in cases where ISO/UN standard are really required. [1] https://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/ungegn/docs/11th-uncsgn-docs/E_Conf.105_13_CRP.13_15_UNGEGN%20WG%20Country%20Names%20Document.pdf https://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/ungegn/docs/11th-uncsgn-...
kgeist 4y ago
>One of the stated reasons is that Turkey is homophonic with 'turkey' (the thanksgiving meal), which further has a connotation of 'lousy'. This is 100% real, their current leadership is a bit strange It's not just a coincidence, the bird was named after Turkey because apparently they were first imported to England via the Middle East and so they were called "Turkey cocks". Other European languages call them literally "India cocks", due to a different import route. So it's a bit silly to change the official name of your country because a bird is named after it.
- vesinisa 4y ago
  Oh, that's new information to me. Now I can not wait for Japan to finally change its name (perhaps to Nippon?) to avoid the terrible and vulgar connotation with the Japanese tit..
  - kergonath 4y ago
    Tits are gorgeous, though; turkeys are not.
    - IlliOnato 4y ago
      Wild turkeys are. At least in the eye of this beholder :-)
  - mejutoco 4y ago
    For a similar issue in Japan check the order of Name and Surname, or Surname and Name in English and Japanese, as it has been officially been swapping a few times.
- kergonath 4y ago
  > Other European languages call them literally "India cocks", due to a different import route. Hence “dinde” in French.
- ozgung 4y ago
  > Other European languages call them literally "India cocks" Haha in Turkey (Türkiye) turkey is hindi and India is Hindistan, which can be translated as Turkeyland.
wongarsu 4y ago
Wait, I thought Türkiye is homophone with Turkey? Did you mean Turkey being homograph with turkey (same spelling different meaning). Or is there a pronunciation change I've missed?
- ziml77 4y ago
  Isn't the new name pronounced like turkey-ay? I'm fairly sure I heard it said that way on some news segment about it.
  - mynameisash 4y ago
    I work with a Turkish woman, and she gave us the rundown of pronunciation. Bref, it's pronounced "turkey-ay."
    - zarzavat 4y ago
      That's in Turkish though. In English the 'e' at the end of 'Turkiye' could either be silent, as in code and eye, or it could be pronounced as in Kanye. It's likely that both pronunciations will be used, similarly to Porsche and Nike. Considering that the pronunciation of 'Turkiye' with a silent e is almost identical to the standard pronunciation of 'Turkey', I suspect this will be the primary pronunciation in English and will win out over the "Kanye" pronunciation. This would make 'Turkiye' a purely orthographic change and not a linguistic one.
      - mynameisash 4y ago
        Fair, so let me clarify: the pronunciation has always been 'turkey-ay', and most other cultures/languages pronounce it correctly (by which I mean in-line with how native Turks pronounce it). English is an outlier.
        zarzavat 4y ago
        On the whole, English tends to be far more accepting of foreign spellings and pronunciations than any other language. The idea that the "correct" spelling and pronunciation for a loanword is that of the source language is very much a quirk of English. Most languages try to either change the spelling of a new loanword to match how it is pronounced, or vice versa. English tries to keep both and that's why English spelling is such a mess, because there is French orthography, Germany orthography, Greek orthography, etc, all mixed together and the only way to know how to spell a word is to know its etymology. Imagine telling the French that the Turkish government gets how to decide how the word "Turquie" is spelled in French, rather than the Académie Française. They would die laughing.
kergonath 4y ago
> One of the stated reasons is that Turkey is homophonic with 'turkey' I would not even know how to pronounce “Türkiye”, even if I were willing to.
stereolambda 4y ago
Yeah, it's strange and short-sighted (to me) that this kind of reasoning drives language changes. You really should want and treasure having an ages-weathered or weird exonym in the target language, preferably going back to Middle Ages or something. This suggests (on the perception level, that's what we're talking about) that you are a serious and established entity and your relations with the world go way, way back. Look up England, Germany (and maybe Holy See) here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_country_names_in_various_languages_(D%E2%80%93I) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_country_names_in_vario... At least Slavic names for Germany even have negative undertones (something like 'mute people'). With changing the name you are trashing all that, and it's doubtful that it really changes much in the perception by itself.
drdaeman 4y ago
I wonder if Georgia should ask to be called Sakartvelo (which is how it's called in Georgian language), just to stop those "the country, not the state" clarifications when talking to US people.

unmole 4y ago

The UN can pretend that it's English. Just like how it pretends Taiwan isn't a country. There's no reason why we should go along with it.

vesinisa 4y ago
Exactly. It's politics, which can take a completely new direction on a whim of a dictator or a regime change. But language, as used in practice, changes much less rapidly.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
sofixa 4y ago
> Just like how it pretends Taiwan isn't a country That's because it really isn't. It really should be, but a) they don't really claim to be one (until recently they officially claimed they're the "one and only" China, same as the PRC) and according to polls most people there support that status quo; b) nobody of note recognises them to be.. anything really. As far as most of the world, including the UN, are concerned, Taiwan is the losers of the Chinese Civil war that have some limited exceptions (like performing at Olympics). Contrast this with Kosovo who claim to be an independent country and are somewhat recognised.
- skissane 4y ago
  > That's because it really isn't. What's a "country"? You are talking about "sovereign state"–whether or not Taiwan counts as one, or could, depends on which theory of statehood one supports (constitutive or declarative)–but something can be a "country" without being a sovereign state. The ISO 3166-1 list is officially of countries and "dependent territories", but many people talk of those "dependent territories" (especially the more major ones) as "countries". And then people commonly speak of the constituent countries of the UK (England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales) as "countries" – seems particularly common in British English (and more British-influenced English varieties), but one even hears Americans speak of them in that way at times. Fewer people know this, but the Kingdom of the Netherlands is divided into four constituent countries as well (the Netherlands proper – which includes both the European part and the Caribbean islands of Bonaire, Sint Eustatius, Saba; Aruba; Curaçao; and Sint Maarten). Similarly, the Kingdom of Denmark is also divided into three countries – Denmark proper, the Faroe Islands, and Greenland. And one of France's overseas territories, French Polynesia, is officially classified under French law as an "overseas country" of France. Canada officially recognises Quebec, not as a "country", but as a "nation" (a term which is often used interchangeably with "country"). > Contrast this with Kosovo who claim to be an independent country and are somewhat recognised. Kosovo is recognised by about 50% of the world's states, including all of the G7 states. They've also been accepted as members of several intergovernmental organisations, including the World Bank and IMF. And yet, unlike Taiwan, ISO still won't give them an official country code - ISO gives the reason that they won't give them a code until the UN Statistical Division gives them a code, and I guess the UN Statistical Division sees it as a political hot potato they don't want to touch.

Hamuko 4y ago

>Practically, yes, but Turkey is a sovereign country and it can ask the UN to call it in English whatever it likes. Can China ask for it to be called 中国?

vesinisa 4y ago
I presume that might be rejected on the grounds that it is a completely different writing system. But my point is that even if it was accepted, the true common name of China in practical English would still not change. Or did you know there already officially exists countries such as Czechia and The Holy See - much better known in English as The Czech Republic and The Vatican respectively?
- jasomill 4y ago
  Pedantically, the Holy See[1] is the Pope's jurisdiction, which includes his universal ecclesiastical jurisdiction in addition to territorial control of a sovereign state. This state[2], per the treaty establishing it[3], is properly referred to as "Vatican City State" (Stato della Città del Vaticano). This is understandably confused by the fact that it is the Holy See, not Vatican City State, that maintains foreign relations and participates in international organizations like the UN. This, I assume, is why the official ISO name associated with country code VA was at some point changed from "Vatican City State (Holy See)" to "Holy See (the)"[4]. Interestingly, both entities issue passports[5]. [1] https://www.vatican.va/ https://www.vatican.va/ [2] https://www.vaticanstate.va/ https://www.vaticanstate.va/ [3] https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/archivio/documents/rc_seg-st_19290211_patti-lateranensi_it.html https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/archivi... [4] https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:code:3166:VA https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:code:3166:VA [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_and_Holy_See_passports https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_and_Holy_See_passports
em500 4y ago
The UN maintains a list of official country names in six languages (English, French, Spanish, Russian, Chinese, Arabic) [1], and UN representatives of the countries can request how they want their country to be written in any of those. I guess China could request to be called 中国 in English communication in the UN and/or ISO (if I understand your question correctly). The main issue is that if you put up to much friction for other language speakers, they're just going to ignore you/the official standards and do whatever they want, so it becomes a bit self-defeating. I expect this to happen to Turkey as well: English speakers will probably mostly keep using "Turkey" rather than "Türkiye" indefinitely, except in cases where ISO/UN standard are really required. [1] https://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/ungegn/docs/11th-uncsgn-docs/E_Conf.105_13_CRP.13_15_UNGEGN%20WG%20Country%20Names%20Document.pdf https://unstats.un.org/unsd/geoinfo/ungegn/docs/11th-uncsgn-...

kgeist 4y ago

>One of the stated reasons is that Turkey is homophonic with 'turkey' (the thanksgiving meal), which further has a connotation of 'lousy'. This is 100% real, their current leadership is a bit strange It's not just a coincidence, the bird was named after Turkey because apparently they were first imported to England via the Middle East and so they were called "Turkey cocks". Other European languages call them literally "India cocks", due to a different import route. So it's a bit silly to change the official name of your country because a bird is named after it.

vesinisa 4y ago
Oh, that's new information to me. Now I can not wait for Japan to finally change its name (perhaps to Nippon?) to avoid the terrible and vulgar connotation with the Japanese tit..
- kergonath 4y ago
  Tits are gorgeous, though; turkeys are not.
  - IlliOnato 4y ago
    Wild turkeys are. At least in the eye of this beholder :-)
- mejutoco 4y ago
  For a similar issue in Japan check the order of Name and Surname, or Surname and Name in English and Japanese, as it has been officially been swapping a few times.
kergonath 4y ago
> Other European languages call them literally "India cocks", due to a different import route. Hence “dinde” in French.
ozgung 4y ago
> Other European languages call them literally "India cocks" Haha in Turkey (Türkiye) turkey is hindi and India is Hindistan, which can be translated as Turkeyland.

wongarsu 4y ago

Wait, I thought Türkiye is homophone with Turkey? Did you mean Turkey being homograph with turkey (same spelling different meaning). Or is there a pronunciation change I've missed?

ziml77 4y ago
Isn't the new name pronounced like turkey-ay? I'm fairly sure I heard it said that way on some news segment about it.
- mynameisash 4y ago
  I work with a Turkish woman, and she gave us the rundown of pronunciation. Bref, it's pronounced "turkey-ay."
  - zarzavat 4y ago
    That's in Turkish though. In English the 'e' at the end of 'Turkiye' could either be silent, as in code and eye, or it could be pronounced as in Kanye. It's likely that both pronunciations will be used, similarly to Porsche and Nike. Considering that the pronunciation of 'Turkiye' with a silent e is almost identical to the standard pronunciation of 'Turkey', I suspect this will be the primary pronunciation in English and will win out over the "Kanye" pronunciation. This would make 'Turkiye' a purely orthographic change and not a linguistic one.
    - mynameisash 4y ago
      Fair, so let me clarify: the pronunciation has always been 'turkey-ay', and most other cultures/languages pronounce it correctly (by which I mean in-line with how native Turks pronounce it). English is an outlier.
      - zarzavat 4y ago
        On the whole, English tends to be far more accepting of foreign spellings and pronunciations than any other language. The idea that the "correct" spelling and pronunciation for a loanword is that of the source language is very much a quirk of English. Most languages try to either change the spelling of a new loanword to match how it is pronounced, or vice versa. English tries to keep both and that's why English spelling is such a mess, because there is French orthography, Germany orthography, Greek orthography, etc, all mixed together and the only way to know how to spell a word is to know its etymology. Imagine telling the French that the Turkish government gets how to decide how the word "Turquie" is spelled in French, rather than the Académie Française. They would die laughing.

kergonath 4y ago

> One of the stated reasons is that Turkey is homophonic with 'turkey' I would not even know how to pronounce “Türkiye”, even if I were willing to.

stereolambda 4y ago

Yeah, it's strange and short-sighted (to me) that this kind of reasoning drives language changes. You really should want and treasure having an ages-weathered or weird exonym in the target language, preferably going back to Middle Ages or something. This suggests (on the perception level, that's what we're talking about) that you are a serious and established entity and your relations with the world go way, way back. Look up England, Germany (and maybe Holy See) here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_country_names_in_various_languages_(D%E2%80%93I) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_country_names_in_vario... At least Slavic names for Germany even have negative undertones (something like 'mute people'). With changing the name you are trashing all that, and it's doubtful that it really changes much in the perception by itself.

drdaeman 4y ago

I wonder if Georgia should ask to be called Sakartvelo (which is how it's called in Georgian language), just to stop those "the country, not the state" clarifications when talking to US people.