6 ms·

A lot of Europeans countries have protections in place, including mandatory weeks of notice and negociation, before any layoffs can happen. Somehow, regulators

by Signez 4y ago

A lot of Europeans countries have protections in place, including mandatory weeks of notice and negociation, before any layoffs can happen. Somehow, regulators are fine here with interpersonal discussion — including through electronic channels — still happening up to the last day of employment.

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>A lot of Europeans countries have protections in place, including mandatory weeks of notice and negociation, before any layoffs can happen. Not all EU countries have negotiations and not for all industries, only the unionized ones, otherwise there's nothing to negociate with individuals and you can just let them go whenever you want to (most of the time). Bitpanda in Austria instantly cut employees off once the layoffs were announced and escorted them out on the same day. It's legal and standard M.O. for most big tech companies when they let people go. You still get your legally required notice period, but you'll have to take it at home, not in the office. It depends on the company, how vulnerable it considers its IP against potential sabotage from disgruntled employees, and since tech workers tend to be pretty skilled at the company's internal tech, most companies aren't taking their chances and immediately lock all your accounts and escort you out. All legal. Those weeks of negotiations you're talking about mostly apply to old-school, factory style, unionized jobs at established conglomerates where employees don't have so much leverage for sabotage, and can't just be let go without heavy union pushback, but that rarely applies to tech workers who don't enjoy such protections because they've mostly seen a bull market where they didn't need/want it. >Somehow, regulators are fine here with interpersonal discussion — including through electronic channels — still happening up to the last day of employment. For most tech jobs, those communications once you've been let go, will have to happen outside of the company's internal network, i.e. using your personal email from home.
- rusticpenn 4y ago
  Atleast in Germany, most Tech workers are unionized ( Verdi or IGMetall)
  - djbebs 4y ago
    Thats news to me
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    If you look at tech companies in the HN sense, as in web-based, SW product or SAAS, then most tech companies in Germany are not IG Metall unionized. If you count tech companies in the German sense, like BOSCH, Siemens, VW, etc. then yes, most are IG Metall.
- disgruntledphd2 4y ago
  FWIW, I got a 90 day period between being notified as at risk of redundancy and being made redundant in Ireland. This stuff is very country dependent and it seems that many countries in western Europe require a bunch of time before escorting you off the premises.
- jillesvangurp 4y ago
  There are a few exceptions. E.g. the UK is more like the US in terms of job security. But most EU countries have pretty strict rules around firing people. This ties into the social well-fare system which does not like people entering it for frivolous reasons. Especially people close to retirement age who are effectively unemployable because they are so expensive to get rid off. Which is an interesting dynamic where people close to retirement have to constantly fear layoffs not because they are useless but because they are a liability for their employer. Mostly companies not following the rules end up engaged in expensive court cases where the judge typically rules against them unless they followed the rules. Court mediated settlements tend to be governed by simple formulas based on years of service, age, etc. So, mostly companies do the right thing and you typically get a fair offer in line with that as they prefer for things not to escalate that way. I've been through this process once when Nokia started laying off masses of people. I got caught up in one of those waves and they gave me a generous deal and even some startup funding. Usually, they can fire you and then make you work the notice period, which really sucks. I was lucky and they gave me gardening leave instead. So, I literally dropped everything and never did a minute of work for them again. Out of the building five minutes after they gave me my notice. They did not kick me out but just told me that I did not have to do anything anymore. Going cold turkey like that is not fun. In the period after that I bootstrapped my first startup and managed to get my former employer to fund it. Great experience overall. But still, getting layed off was a shock. I had to do the walk of shame to the unemployment agency. That really sucked and they treat you like you are useless scum. You are just a number in the system. I literally went from being a principal engineer that just got a raise because to a great performance review to being out on the street dealing with crap like that. The good news was that it wasn't personal. They needed to cut some percentage and my team got squeezed in the middle. Corporate politics basically.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    >But most EU countries have pretty strict rules around firing people. Nope, in Austria employers can fire most people without any reason. Restrictions may apply to vulnerable people like close to retiring age and mass layoffs, but firing one Average Joe who isn't considered vulnerable has no rules or restrictions. So I think the UK has better job security than some EU countries.
- Robin_Message 4y ago
  The UK requires consultation, regardless of industry or union status, for all layoffs (redundancies) of 20 staff or over: https://www.gov.uk/redundancy-your-rights/consultation https://www.gov.uk/redundancy-your-rights/consultation
  - petercooper 4y ago
    It's a rule, but it's not a criminal offence for an employer to ignore those rules if they're happy to take their chances in an employment tribunal. Given cases are taking a year to even reach a hearing now thanks to our incompetent government, it's no surprise that employers will chance it. See P&O: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60789612 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60789612
    - jsty 4y ago
      > it's not a criminal offence for an employer to ignore those rules if they're happy to take their chances in an employment tribunal I'm not an employment lawyer, but to the best of my knowledge this is incorrect - mass redundancies of 20+ people need to be notified to the government in advance, and failure to do so carries criminal penalties. P&O seems to have escaped this requirement (at least for now) owing to maritime employment being a special case and jurisdictional issues https://www.rsmuk.com/ideas-and-insights/legal/mass-redundancies-legal-requirements-that-must-be-met https://www.rsmuk.com/ideas-and-insights/legal/mass-redundan...
    - Robin_Message 4y ago
      You're both right: for >=20 redundancies, it is merely something the employee can take up at tribunal. For >=100 redundancies, notice to the Secretary of State is required and not giving notice is a criminal offence, by both the company, and also any officer/director/similar who is involved in not giving notice: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/52/section/194 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/52/section/194 A level five fine on the standard scale is (since 2015) technically unlimited, so it's not a toothless law. Not sure if anyone has even been prosecuted though.
- soco 4y ago
  There are two aspects here: one is cutting off your work accesses at once, that's for sure legal everywhere unionized or not. BUT there's also the payment part - the company still has to pay you for the notice period (different periods for different countries/industries/unions).
ransom1538 4y ago
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >In Europe [...] Literally everything you said does not apply for all of Europe, not even all of EU. Maybe you should be more specific before making such wild claims.
  - ransom1538 4y ago
    Sorry it's a bad joke.
ekianjo 4y ago
in eu you have a lot of protection and a lot of unemployement as well that goes with it. the more friction you add, the more it cuts both ways.
- paulnewmanseyes 4y ago
  US unemployment rate: 3.6% German unemployment rate: 2.8%
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    Those numbers are relatively meaningless when compared as each country counts unemployed people differently. In Germany if you are unemployed and the unemployment agency sends you to a course, like to learn German, you are no longer part of the unemployment statistic even though you're still receiving welfare.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]

by Signez 4y ago

ChuckNorris89 4y ago

>A lot of Europeans countries have protections in place, including mandatory weeks of notice and negociation, before any layoffs can happen. Not all EU countries have negotiations and not for all industries, only the unionized ones, otherwise there's nothing to negociate with individuals and you can just let them go whenever you want to (most of the time). Bitpanda in Austria instantly cut employees off once the layoffs were announced and escorted them out on the same day. It's legal and standard M.O. for most big tech companies when they let people go. You still get your legally required notice period, but you'll have to take it at home, not in the office. It depends on the company, how vulnerable it considers its IP against potential sabotage from disgruntled employees, and since tech workers tend to be pretty skilled at the company's internal tech, most companies aren't taking their chances and immediately lock all your accounts and escort you out. All legal. Those weeks of negotiations you're talking about mostly apply to old-school, factory style, unionized jobs at established conglomerates where employees don't have so much leverage for sabotage, and can't just be let go without heavy union pushback, but that rarely applies to tech workers who don't enjoy such protections because they've mostly seen a bull market where they didn't need/want it. >Somehow, regulators are fine here with interpersonal discussion — including through electronic channels — still happening up to the last day of employment. For most tech jobs, those communications once you've been let go, will have to happen outside of the company's internal network, i.e. using your personal email from home.

rusticpenn 4y ago
Atleast in Germany, most Tech workers are unionized ( Verdi or IGMetall)
- djbebs 4y ago
  Thats news to me
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  If you look at tech companies in the HN sense, as in web-based, SW product or SAAS, then most tech companies in Germany are not IG Metall unionized. If you count tech companies in the German sense, like BOSCH, Siemens, VW, etc. then yes, most are IG Metall.
disgruntledphd2 4y ago
FWIW, I got a 90 day period between being notified as at risk of redundancy and being made redundant in Ireland. This stuff is very country dependent and it seems that many countries in western Europe require a bunch of time before escorting you off the premises.
jillesvangurp 4y ago
There are a few exceptions. E.g. the UK is more like the US in terms of job security. But most EU countries have pretty strict rules around firing people. This ties into the social well-fare system which does not like people entering it for frivolous reasons. Especially people close to retirement age who are effectively unemployable because they are so expensive to get rid off. Which is an interesting dynamic where people close to retirement have to constantly fear layoffs not because they are useless but because they are a liability for their employer. Mostly companies not following the rules end up engaged in expensive court cases where the judge typically rules against them unless they followed the rules. Court mediated settlements tend to be governed by simple formulas based on years of service, age, etc. So, mostly companies do the right thing and you typically get a fair offer in line with that as they prefer for things not to escalate that way. I've been through this process once when Nokia started laying off masses of people. I got caught up in one of those waves and they gave me a generous deal and even some startup funding. Usually, they can fire you and then make you work the notice period, which really sucks. I was lucky and they gave me gardening leave instead. So, I literally dropped everything and never did a minute of work for them again. Out of the building five minutes after they gave me my notice. They did not kick me out but just told me that I did not have to do anything anymore. Going cold turkey like that is not fun. In the period after that I bootstrapped my first startup and managed to get my former employer to fund it. Great experience overall. But still, getting layed off was a shock. I had to do the walk of shame to the unemployment agency. That really sucked and they treat you like you are useless scum. You are just a number in the system. I literally went from being a principal engineer that just got a raise because to a great performance review to being out on the street dealing with crap like that. The good news was that it wasn't personal. They needed to cut some percentage and my team got squeezed in the middle. Corporate politics basically.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >But most EU countries have pretty strict rules around firing people. Nope, in Austria employers can fire most people without any reason. Restrictions may apply to vulnerable people like close to retiring age and mass layoffs, but firing one Average Joe who isn't considered vulnerable has no rules or restrictions. So I think the UK has better job security than some EU countries.
Robin_Message 4y ago
The UK requires consultation, regardless of industry or union status, for all layoffs (redundancies) of 20 staff or over: https://www.gov.uk/redundancy-your-rights/consultation https://www.gov.uk/redundancy-your-rights/consultation
- petercooper 4y ago
  It's a rule, but it's not a criminal offence for an employer to ignore those rules if they're happy to take their chances in an employment tribunal. Given cases are taking a year to even reach a hearing now thanks to our incompetent government, it's no surprise that employers will chance it. See P&O: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60789612 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60789612
  - jsty 4y ago
    > it's not a criminal offence for an employer to ignore those rules if they're happy to take their chances in an employment tribunal I'm not an employment lawyer, but to the best of my knowledge this is incorrect - mass redundancies of 20+ people need to be notified to the government in advance, and failure to do so carries criminal penalties. P&O seems to have escaped this requirement (at least for now) owing to maritime employment being a special case and jurisdictional issues https://www.rsmuk.com/ideas-and-insights/legal/mass-redundancies-legal-requirements-that-must-be-met https://www.rsmuk.com/ideas-and-insights/legal/mass-redundan...
  - Robin_Message 4y ago
    You're both right: for >=20 redundancies, it is merely something the employee can take up at tribunal. For >=100 redundancies, notice to the Secretary of State is required and not giving notice is a criminal offence, by both the company, and also any officer/director/similar who is involved in not giving notice: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/52/section/194 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/52/section/194 A level five fine on the standard scale is (since 2015) technically unlimited, so it's not a toothless law. Not sure if anyone has even been prosecuted though.
soco 4y ago
There are two aspects here: one is cutting off your work accesses at once, that's for sure legal everywhere unionized or not. BUT there's also the payment part - the company still has to pay you for the notice period (different periods for different countries/industries/unions).

ransom1538 4y ago

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>In Europe [...] Literally everything you said does not apply for all of Europe, not even all of EU. Maybe you should be more specific before making such wild claims.
- ransom1538 4y ago
  Sorry it's a bad joke.

ekianjo 4y ago

in eu you have a lot of protection and a lot of unemployement as well that goes with it. the more friction you add, the more it cuts both ways.

paulnewmanseyes 4y ago
US unemployment rate: 3.6% German unemployment rate: 2.8%
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  Those numbers are relatively meaningless when compared as each country counts unemployed people differently. In Germany if you are unemployed and the unemployment agency sends you to a course, like to learn German, you are no longer part of the unemployment statistic even though you're still receiving welfare.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]