8 ms·

You are describing the hedonic treadmill. Essentially, you become used to your surroundings, and while they are objectively great, from the perspective of insid

You are describing the hedonic treadmill. Essentially, you become used to your surroundings, and while they are objectively great, from the perspective of inside your own head, this is now normal and you / your monkey mind wants more. There have been a lot of post floating around the internet with various solutions, the most popular being Stoicism > Positive Psychology / Happiness research > Buddhism / Meditation. I've dabbled a little in all of them and they all have something to offer. Essentially, you are experiencing a disconnect between how it feels to be you and how you expected to feel. As someone only a little older than yourself, I would say this: your job will never love you back, and especially in the software realm, it may not be as fulfilling as something like woodworking or therapy. It does pay the bills, though. The above mentioned happiness research / positive psychology suggests that having multiple, meaningful social roles that you can fulfill outside of work will allow you to shoulder more responsibility and find meaning in your life. What I'm trying say is that in the second half of life, it is our job to give back. So start there. Also, this is in my morning bookmarks to revisit: https://old.reddit.com/r/AskEngineers/comments/so6e8h/engineers_who_got_their_mba_whats_your_jobcareer/hw8ui28/ https://old.reddit.com/r/AskEngineers/comments/so6e8h/engine...

jvanderbot 4y ago
For anyone interested, the above topics (Stoicism, positive psychology, budhism) are all nicely discussed in Happiness Hypothesis, by Jonathan Haidt.
- willhslade 4y ago
  Which is an excellent book, thank you for pointing that out.
  - pdxandi 4y ago
    Which one? “Finding Modern Truth in Ancient Wisdom” or “Ten Ways to Find Happiness and Meaning in Life”?
metadat 4y ago
Friendlier, less user-hostile link: https://old.reddit.com/r/AskEngineers/comments/so6e8h/comment/hw8ui28/ https://old.reddit.com/r/AskEngineers/comments/so6e8h/commen... (The main site goes to great lengths to force registration, even hiding the content after a few seconds (!) when a mobile user-agent is detected)
- bo0tzz 4y ago
  I've been using this[1] plugin (made by a friend) for years now to get around this issue. 1: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/reddit-fixer/boahhdcjflkiibelindjjjfpnffcjdag https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/reddit-fixer/boahh...
  - metadat 4y ago
    Yes, these are popular, although unfortunately they don't help the most abused clients: mobile users. Anyhow, this is off-topic. Reddit is an ungrateful, rent-seeking gatekeeper of UGC, news at 11.
- willhslade 4y ago
  Thanks, updated my post. I'm usually logged in in the classic site so I didn't think what it would be like for others.
Pokepokalypse 4y ago
This is possibly true. I'm in my 50's now, and when I was in my 40's, my life-situation allowed me to pursue a lot more outside interests and hobbies. I had a lot of different outside activities, and would go out after work 4 nights a week with something different. A mass-layoff 5 years ago changed my circumstances in a lot of ways. I have another job - one that I love probably much more. But I relocated, and where I live now just doesn't have many of the same opportunities to do all the different things I used to do. And it's causing a lot of feelings of emptiness and burnout. Since I work remote, I'm planning on another relocation.
- mancerayder 4y ago
  What was the main difference between the two locations? Are these major cities or more rural? I am thinking of a relocation to a less city-like environment but worry about the loneliness factor. The cities offer people, but less hobbies I'm interested in. City hobbies are mostly social and drinking oriented.
  - OkayPhysicist 4y ago
    As someone who has split time across rural/urban life, going rural to get away from drinking oriented socializing is probably not going to work as well as you think it will.
    - mancerayder 4y ago
      How so?
asciimike 4y ago
> As someone only a little older than yourself, I would say this: your job will never love you back, and especially in the software realm, it may not be as fulfilling as something like woodworking or therapy. It does pay the bills, though. Reminded me of https://github.com/docker/cli/issues/267#issuecomment-695149477 https://github.com/docker/cli/issues/267#issuecomment-695149... > I no longer build software; I now make furniture out of wood. The hours are long, the pay sucks, and there's always the opportunity to remove my finger with a table saw, but nobody asks me if I can add an RSS feed to a DBMS, so there's that :-) Relevant discussion of that thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24541964 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24541964 I think you summarized it well :)
- imdsm 4y ago
  I remember the woodworking post, and think about it a lot.
  - marincounty 4y ago
- endymi0n 4y ago
  I have observed over the years a tendency of people leaving software for something completely different (often something much more tangible). Maybe that’s your beef, maybe not. My take on it is slightly different: It could very well be that instead of burnout, you are just missing purpose and meaning in your life. What is the legacy that you want to build for your kids? Don’t despair. It’s all good. Give yourself props for mastering all but the highest layer of Maslow‘s pyramid. You’ve achieved something most people on this planet never will. Onto the last one. Good luck with that!
  - MrDresden 4y ago
    Being a software developer is but the initial larval stage.
  - willhslade 4y ago
Aperocky 4y ago
For me, engaging in a sport that borders on meditation expanded my mind, I paddleboard around sunset/nights. This tremendously improved my mental state after being trapped inside for most of 2020.
sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
Correct. It works in reverse too. Anecdote: As I deployed to Afghanistan from my duty station on Okinawa things got progressively shitty. Okinawa -> Manas: Living conditions suck but they have a decent chow hall. Manas -> Camp Leatherneck: Crappy living, crappy chow. Camp Leatherneck -> FOB: wow this sucks. FOB -> combat outpost: holy shit this sucks! How am I gonna do 7 months of this?! I did. Got used to it. Was actually kind of fun after awhile. Then after deployment you do it in reverse and feels like being upgraded to better and better luxury. Soon enough you're used to it and living in the barracks on Okinawa sucks again. Point being that you adjust to living conditions- good or bad. Don't derive purpose from chasing more because you'll always adjust to whatever you attain.
- mym1990 4y ago
  No sure why you’re getting downvoted, this makes sense. Humans are incredibly good at adapting to environments. From your perspective, it sounds like a change of pace kept things interesting.
- bladegash 4y ago
  Hah, slightly off topic, but I was there from 09-10 and remember that same journey from MCBH -> Manas -> Leatherneck -> COP -> Patrol Base. I honestly think Leatherneck may have been the worst out of that experience. Some of the best times were having nothing on a PB for 10+ months (we were there for an extended period).
- kevmo314 4y ago
  > Don't derive purpose from chasing more because you'll always adjust to whatever you attain. I'd rephrase this, or at least maybe this is what the intent was: it's not that bad to derive purpose from chasing more but it's probably bad to derive purpose from attaining. There's nothing wrong with being ambitious as long as the journey is how you derive purpose.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
    Yes, that's exactly it.
0000011111 4y ago
I would like to add two other ways to get off the hedonic treadmill for a bit. 1. Backpacking for a 1 week time period or longer. Living out of a backpack is a great way to help rest your brain terms of its standard perspective on what it thinks it needs to be happy in day to day life. Also, there are some nice places you can walk to with a backpack on that you can not drive to. 2. A Therapeutic mushroom trip - read how to change your mind by that hippy Berkley professor. This is not for everyone though. So proceed with caution.
- bavila 4y ago
  I've done an extended backpacking trip (4 months). Probably took about a month before feeling like a truly therapeutic break. I don't think a week would have been nearly enough.
  - pdxandi 4y ago
    Did you live out in the wilderness that whole time or travel around out of a backpack? The two are obviously very different so am curious your experience. I have had friends who have backpacked along the PCT, CDT, AT, etc. and they all returned different people.
    - bavila 4y ago
      AT 2016 SOBO section hiker. Just the northern half (from Katahdin to Harper's Ferry), so I might have only came back half a different person. :) I took it pretty leisurely and stopped in at towns often, so I probably averaged about 9-10 miles per day. I'm not an outdoorsman by any stretch, but it was nice to just get away for a while. Definitely made me appreciate the small and simple conveniences of civilization that I often take for granted.
- ActorNightly 4y ago
  The generalization is that you need some "stress" in your life to remain grounded, i.e something that you engage on a level that produces a sense of urgency. Backpacking and living minimally can definitely do that. Taking up a sport that has some element of fear/danger can do that as well. >A Therapeutic mushroom trip - read how to change your mind by that hippy Berkley professor. This is not for everyone though. So proceed with caution. Mushrooms are way, way, way safer than what people believe. For people who are sane (i.e not suffering from psychosis) it is perfectly safe to do an entry level 2-3.5 gram shroom trip with a trip sitter. You can read all the studies, the negative effects are pretty much non existent, the only stuff that gets mentioned is the meta-effects from things like being disoriented and tripping and falling - thus the trip sitter.
hesdeadjim 4y ago
I think you drastically over-estimate how "fulfilling" something like therapy is. Day in and day out you will see people you desperately wish to help, who if they listened to 20% of what you offered would see their lives change immensely, only to watch them repeat the same behavior without change day in and day out. Worse, if you deal with depressed or addicted people it's just a matter of time before a client kills themselves. Grass is always greener, but we have it easy in software and it's good to remember that. All that said, I've been through the types of discontent that OP mentions. I've worked many interesting software jobs, started multiple businesses, failed many times, succeeded, made lots of money, shipped an indie game that was an expression of myself -- a dream come true, and at the end of it all... emptiness and a feeling of not-enough-ness (not depression!). If one does not find a philosophy that accepts this as reality at its core, you'll be chasing your tail until the day you die. I personally prefer Buddhism without the ceremonial pomp, and in that vein I'd recommend Noah Levine: https://www.againstthestream.com/dharma-talk-and-meditation-podcast https://www.againstthestream.com/dharma-talk-and-meditation-... Edit: 100% agree though that giving back to people is wonderful. Some of my best experiences have been the happiness in helping someone else succeed.
- hacksoi 4y ago
  > shipped an indie game that was an expression of myself I've been trying to find games that are personal to the developer (I'm actually trying to make one now). What's the name of your game?
  - hesdeadjim 4y ago
    Send me an email at this temp address if you'd like to chat: pibig18709 at teasya dot com
  - HelloMcFly 4y ago
    That Dragon Cancer is certainly one.
goodpoint 4y ago
The hedonic treadmill aspect is very relevant, but first we must wonder if perfectjob's work is fulfilling is its social value. perfectjob (the author) never said the current job is making the world a better place.
29athrowaway 4y ago
I think this is why in part some successful artists, once they live in expensive mansions and have already gained access to every luxury, completely lose perspective in life and get into substance abuse, addictions, etc. Which is similar to what happened in the rat utopia experiment: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-utopias-1960s-led-grim-predictions-humans-180954423/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-utopias-...
hinkley 4y ago
Anecdotal evidence is that you can hack the hedonic treadmill by having interests outside of work. If nothing in your life is more challenging than work, then all of your yardsticks will be based upon it. If however you're comparing the relative pain of writing documentation to lifting a 40lbs bag of building materials, holding a position in yoga/martial arts class, running a half marathon, riding a century, hiking for six hours in a cold rain, then documentation really isn't so bad.
- tapatio 4y ago
  So true. He should go do the 4X4X48 challenge.
heliodor 4y ago
There's also the angle that each day is the same as yesterday and the person doesn't feel like it's leading anywhere. It's the same as laying bricks for life or being a simple farmer. It puts food on the table but does nothing for the mind.
cvshane 4y ago
> it is our job to give back I've struggled with the same thoughts above, and giving back is helpful. I've tried to document it (https://www.codekindly.org/ https://www.codekindly.org/) with these principles of giving back by coding kindly: Be Kind to the Earth: reduce code waste, utilize green infra Be Kind to Community: donate code, give to charity Be Kind to Users: protect privacy, provide joyful experiences Be Kind to Yourself: physical + mental health, cultivate relationships It's a shift in mindset to find fulfillment in your current job

jvanderbot 4y ago

For anyone interested, the above topics (Stoicism, positive psychology, budhism) are all nicely discussed in Happiness Hypothesis, by Jonathan Haidt.

willhslade 4y ago
Which is an excellent book, thank you for pointing that out.
- pdxandi 4y ago
  Which one? “Finding Modern Truth in Ancient Wisdom” or “Ten Ways to Find Happiness and Meaning in Life”?

metadat 4y ago

Friendlier, less user-hostile link: https://old.reddit.com/r/AskEngineers/comments/so6e8h/comment/hw8ui28/ https://old.reddit.com/r/AskEngineers/comments/so6e8h/commen... (The main site goes to great lengths to force registration, even hiding the content after a few seconds (!) when a mobile user-agent is detected)

bo0tzz 4y ago
I've been using this[1] plugin (made by a friend) for years now to get around this issue. 1: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/reddit-fixer/boahhdcjflkiibelindjjjfpnffcjdag https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/reddit-fixer/boahh...
- metadat 4y ago
  Yes, these are popular, although unfortunately they don't help the most abused clients: mobile users. Anyhow, this is off-topic. Reddit is an ungrateful, rent-seeking gatekeeper of UGC, news at 11.
willhslade 4y ago
Thanks, updated my post. I'm usually logged in in the classic site so I didn't think what it would be like for others.

Pokepokalypse 4y ago

This is possibly true. I'm in my 50's now, and when I was in my 40's, my life-situation allowed me to pursue a lot more outside interests and hobbies. I had a lot of different outside activities, and would go out after work 4 nights a week with something different. A mass-layoff 5 years ago changed my circumstances in a lot of ways. I have another job - one that I love probably much more. But I relocated, and where I live now just doesn't have many of the same opportunities to do all the different things I used to do. And it's causing a lot of feelings of emptiness and burnout. Since I work remote, I'm planning on another relocation.

mancerayder 4y ago
What was the main difference between the two locations? Are these major cities or more rural? I am thinking of a relocation to a less city-like environment but worry about the loneliness factor. The cities offer people, but less hobbies I'm interested in. City hobbies are mostly social and drinking oriented.
- OkayPhysicist 4y ago
  As someone who has split time across rural/urban life, going rural to get away from drinking oriented socializing is probably not going to work as well as you think it will.
  - mancerayder 4y ago
    How so?

asciimike 4y ago

> As someone only a little older than yourself, I would say this: your job will never love you back, and especially in the software realm, it may not be as fulfilling as something like woodworking or therapy. It does pay the bills, though. Reminded me of https://github.com/docker/cli/issues/267#issuecomment-695149477 https://github.com/docker/cli/issues/267#issuecomment-695149... > I no longer build software; I now make furniture out of wood. The hours are long, the pay sucks, and there's always the opportunity to remove my finger with a table saw, but nobody asks me if I can add an RSS feed to a DBMS, so there's that :-) Relevant discussion of that thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24541964 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24541964 I think you summarized it well :)

imdsm 4y ago
I remember the woodworking post, and think about it a lot.
- marincounty 4y ago
endymi0n 4y ago
I have observed over the years a tendency of people leaving software for something completely different (often something much more tangible). Maybe that’s your beef, maybe not. My take on it is slightly different: It could very well be that instead of burnout, you are just missing purpose and meaning in your life. What is the legacy that you want to build for your kids? Don’t despair. It’s all good. Give yourself props for mastering all but the highest layer of Maslow‘s pyramid. You’ve achieved something most people on this planet never will. Onto the last one. Good luck with that!
- MrDresden 4y ago
  Being a software developer is but the initial larval stage.
- willhslade 4y ago

Aperocky 4y ago

For me, engaging in a sport that borders on meditation expanded my mind, I paddleboard around sunset/nights. This tremendously improved my mental state after being trapped inside for most of 2020.

sdfhdhjdw3 4y ago

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

Correct. It works in reverse too. Anecdote: As I deployed to Afghanistan from my duty station on Okinawa things got progressively shitty. Okinawa -> Manas: Living conditions suck but they have a decent chow hall. Manas -> Camp Leatherneck: Crappy living, crappy chow. Camp Leatherneck -> FOB: wow this sucks. FOB -> combat outpost: holy shit this sucks! How am I gonna do 7 months of this?! I did. Got used to it. Was actually kind of fun after awhile. Then after deployment you do it in reverse and feels like being upgraded to better and better luxury. Soon enough you're used to it and living in the barracks on Okinawa sucks again. Point being that you adjust to living conditions- good or bad. Don't derive purpose from chasing more because you'll always adjust to whatever you attain.

mym1990 4y ago
No sure why you’re getting downvoted, this makes sense. Humans are incredibly good at adapting to environments. From your perspective, it sounds like a change of pace kept things interesting.
bladegash 4y ago
Hah, slightly off topic, but I was there from 09-10 and remember that same journey from MCBH -> Manas -> Leatherneck -> COP -> Patrol Base. I honestly think Leatherneck may have been the worst out of that experience. Some of the best times were having nothing on a PB for 10+ months (we were there for an extended period).
kevmo314 4y ago
> Don't derive purpose from chasing more because you'll always adjust to whatever you attain. I'd rephrase this, or at least maybe this is what the intent was: it's not that bad to derive purpose from chasing more but it's probably bad to derive purpose from attaining. There's nothing wrong with being ambitious as long as the journey is how you derive purpose.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
  Yes, that's exactly it.

0000011111 4y ago

I would like to add two other ways to get off the hedonic treadmill for a bit. 1. Backpacking for a 1 week time period or longer. Living out of a backpack is a great way to help rest your brain terms of its standard perspective on what it thinks it needs to be happy in day to day life. Also, there are some nice places you can walk to with a backpack on that you can not drive to. 2. A Therapeutic mushroom trip - read how to change your mind by that hippy Berkley professor. This is not for everyone though. So proceed with caution.

bavila 4y ago
I've done an extended backpacking trip (4 months). Probably took about a month before feeling like a truly therapeutic break. I don't think a week would have been nearly enough.
- pdxandi 4y ago
  Did you live out in the wilderness that whole time or travel around out of a backpack? The two are obviously very different so am curious your experience. I have had friends who have backpacked along the PCT, CDT, AT, etc. and they all returned different people.
  - bavila 4y ago
    AT 2016 SOBO section hiker. Just the northern half (from Katahdin to Harper's Ferry), so I might have only came back half a different person. :) I took it pretty leisurely and stopped in at towns often, so I probably averaged about 9-10 miles per day. I'm not an outdoorsman by any stretch, but it was nice to just get away for a while. Definitely made me appreciate the small and simple conveniences of civilization that I often take for granted.
ActorNightly 4y ago
The generalization is that you need some "stress" in your life to remain grounded, i.e something that you engage on a level that produces a sense of urgency. Backpacking and living minimally can definitely do that. Taking up a sport that has some element of fear/danger can do that as well. >A Therapeutic mushroom trip - read how to change your mind by that hippy Berkley professor. This is not for everyone though. So proceed with caution. Mushrooms are way, way, way safer than what people believe. For people who are sane (i.e not suffering from psychosis) it is perfectly safe to do an entry level 2-3.5 gram shroom trip with a trip sitter. You can read all the studies, the negative effects are pretty much non existent, the only stuff that gets mentioned is the meta-effects from things like being disoriented and tripping and falling - thus the trip sitter.

hesdeadjim 4y ago

I think you drastically over-estimate how "fulfilling" something like therapy is. Day in and day out you will see people you desperately wish to help, who if they listened to 20% of what you offered would see their lives change immensely, only to watch them repeat the same behavior without change day in and day out. Worse, if you deal with depressed or addicted people it's just a matter of time before a client kills themselves. Grass is always greener, but we have it easy in software and it's good to remember that. All that said, I've been through the types of discontent that OP mentions. I've worked many interesting software jobs, started multiple businesses, failed many times, succeeded, made lots of money, shipped an indie game that was an expression of myself -- a dream come true, and at the end of it all... emptiness and a feeling of not-enough-ness (not depression!). If one does not find a philosophy that accepts this as reality at its core, you'll be chasing your tail until the day you die. I personally prefer Buddhism without the ceremonial pomp, and in that vein I'd recommend Noah Levine: https://www.againstthestream.com/dharma-talk-and-meditation-podcast https://www.againstthestream.com/dharma-talk-and-meditation-... Edit: 100% agree though that giving back to people is wonderful. Some of my best experiences have been the happiness in helping someone else succeed.

hacksoi 4y ago
> shipped an indie game that was an expression of myself I've been trying to find games that are personal to the developer (I'm actually trying to make one now). What's the name of your game?
- hesdeadjim 4y ago
  Send me an email at this temp address if you'd like to chat: pibig18709 at teasya dot com
- HelloMcFly 4y ago
  That Dragon Cancer is certainly one.

goodpoint 4y ago

The hedonic treadmill aspect is very relevant, but first we must wonder if perfectjob's work is fulfilling is its social value. perfectjob (the author) never said the current job is making the world a better place.

29athrowaway 4y ago

I think this is why in part some successful artists, once they live in expensive mansions and have already gained access to every luxury, completely lose perspective in life and get into substance abuse, addictions, etc. Which is similar to what happened in the rat utopia experiment: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-utopias-1960s-led-grim-predictions-humans-180954423/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-mouse-utopias-...

hinkley 4y ago

Anecdotal evidence is that you can hack the hedonic treadmill by having interests outside of work. If nothing in your life is more challenging than work, then all of your yardsticks will be based upon it. If however you're comparing the relative pain of writing documentation to lifting a 40lbs bag of building materials, holding a position in yoga/martial arts class, running a half marathon, riding a century, hiking for six hours in a cold rain, then documentation really isn't so bad.

tapatio 4y ago
So true. He should go do the 4X4X48 challenge.

heliodor 4y ago

There's also the angle that each day is the same as yesterday and the person doesn't feel like it's leading anywhere. It's the same as laying bricks for life or being a simple farmer. It puts food on the table but does nothing for the mind.

cvshane 4y ago

> it is our job to give back I've struggled with the same thoughts above, and giving back is helpful. I've tried to document it (https://www.codekindly.org/ https://www.codekindly.org/) with these principles of giving back by coding kindly: Be Kind to the Earth: reduce code waste, utilize green infra Be Kind to Community: donate code, give to charity Be Kind to Users: protect privacy, provide joyful experiences Be Kind to Yourself: physical + mental health, cultivate relationships It's a shift in mindset to find fulfillment in your current job