7 ms·

it's nuts. even murderers can get parole.no parole is a huge injustice

by hamiltonians 4y ago

jjoonathan 4y ago
Didn't he try to order a bunch of hits though?
- ssnistfajen 4y ago
  Those charges were all dropped. There was likely intent on his side but no murder were conclusively proven to have taken place. I do believe he will be paroled/commuted eventually under another president, perhaps in another decade or so.
  - misiti3780 4y ago
    ya but he still tried to have people killed, and at one point, he thought the murder had taken place because the FBI sent a fake pic.
  - mikeyouse 4y ago
    The charges were dropped due to the seriousness of the charges that remained (and the corrupt Fed that would complicate the matter) but the judge found sufficient evidence of intent to order the hits (e.g. messages specifically ordering the hits, sending payment for the hits in the amount of $650k in bitcoin from wallets found on his laptop, writing in his journal "I ordered some people killed" and "they were killed") that those attempted hits were used as a sentencing enhancement for the other charges he was found guilty of - namely the criminal conspiracy and maintaining a criminal enterprise. And "without parole" is a meaningless thing in Federal prison since there is no parole. If you commit Federal crimes, you get to do Federal sentences. See page 20 onwards for the evidence that the judge weighed about the ordered hits: https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/17/17A559/20426/20171116135157920_Ulbricht%20Application%20Appendix%20paginated.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/17/17A559/20426/20171...
    - zionic 4y ago
      Wait, how can “evidence” you weren’t convicted with be used for sentencing of a crime you were convicted for? So the gov couldn’t prove its case but it still gets to use that data for sentencing?
      - mikeyouse 4y ago
        So the evidence proved their case for the main charges - as demonstrated by the jury’s guilty verdict. The government then provides a sentencing recommendation and Ross’s lawyers can dispute anything the government claims. The bar for the sentencing enhancements is “a preponderance of evidence” which is something akin to 51% vs guilty / not-guilty which requires the jury to be convinced “beyond a reasonable doubt” or closer to 100%. The judge weighed the evidence, weighed Ulbricht’s lawyers’ responses and found a preponderance of evidence that he did indeed order the hits which enhanced (extended) the sentence he was given. It’s been awhile since I looked at the transcripts but at the time I couldn’t believe how bad his lawyers were. They offered almost no reply to damning accusation after damning accusation.
        zionic 4y ago
        To me this seems like a fairly clear-cut constitutional violation. You are being deprived of life/liberty at sentencing, if the judge can use information/"accusations" that the government failed to prove then you are being punished without conviction.
    - stale2002 4y ago
      So then yes the charges got dropped. Just say that you agree with them. You don't have to angrily pretend like you are disagreeing. You agree completely, 100% that those charges got dropped.
      - pm90 4y ago
        Facts sans context are utterly meaningless
  - tptacek 4y ago
    Those charges were not dropped. They were predicates of his conspiracy charge. The murders-for-hire were charged conduct, brought into the trial and rebuttable by the defense, and considered during sentencing.
    - ssnistfajen 4y ago
      Of the six murder indictments trumpeted by the U.S. government in the days following Ulbricht’s Oct. 2013 arrest, five have fallen off the table and the sixth sits untouched in a separate indictment (legalese for an unproven allegation) that was purposefully left out of the upcoming trial. https://www.dailydot.com/crime/silk-road-murder-charges-ross-ulbricht/ https://www.dailydot.com/crime/silk-road-murder-charges-ross... Ross Ulbricht's Murder-for-Hire Charges Dropped by U.S. Attorney https://reason.com/2018/07/25/ross-ulbrichts-murder-for-hire-charges-d/ https://reason.com/2018/07/25/ross-ulbrichts-murder-for-hire... The conspiracy charges were related to computer hacking and trafficking narcotics, not murder-for-hire which from all the evidences presented was a scheme set up to collect payments from him.
      - tptacek 4y ago
        It's right there in the (final, superseding) indictment, and in the PSR (I think? one of the sentencing filings). This isn't a big controversy for us to hash out; you can just go read it.
        ssnistfajen 4y ago
        Dropped charges are dropped charges. It's right there in the title and rather baffling how you are glossing over them as if they are alien scriptures.
        tptacek 4y ago
        I'm literally staring at the superseding indictment right now. Page 7. Go look. He was charged, and those charges were not dropped. I don't know what title you're referring to.
- everforward 4y ago
  Those charges had some issues. He tried to arrange a hit on someone who he thought had stolen $800k in Bitcoin from him, but it turns out one of the FBI agents stole the money and framed someone else. There's also some accusations that the agents pushed him to order the hit. The two taken together could be construed as entrapment, but the charges were dropped so there isn't a conclusive answer.
knodi123 4y ago
Yeah, but Ulbricht had multiple fake passports, and was assumed to have an unknown but enormous amount of hidden cash, and loyal contacts in lots of countries. Not to mention lots of experience living and traveling under a cover identity. He's a much bigger flight risk than a run-of-the-mill murderer.
duped 4y ago
Congress banned parole for federal crimes back in 1987. If you get convicted in federal court you have to do the entire sentence.

it's nuts. even murderers can get parole.no parole is a huge injustice

jjoonathan 4y ago

Didn't he try to order a bunch of hits though?

ssnistfajen 4y ago
Those charges were all dropped. There was likely intent on his side but no murder were conclusively proven to have taken place. I do believe he will be paroled/commuted eventually under another president, perhaps in another decade or so.
- misiti3780 4y ago
  ya but he still tried to have people killed, and at one point, he thought the murder had taken place because the FBI sent a fake pic.
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  The charges were dropped due to the seriousness of the charges that remained (and the corrupt Fed that would complicate the matter) but the judge found sufficient evidence of intent to order the hits (e.g. messages specifically ordering the hits, sending payment for the hits in the amount of $650k in bitcoin from wallets found on his laptop, writing in his journal "I ordered some people killed" and "they were killed") that those attempted hits were used as a sentencing enhancement for the other charges he was found guilty of - namely the criminal conspiracy and maintaining a criminal enterprise. And "without parole" is a meaningless thing in Federal prison since there is no parole. If you commit Federal crimes, you get to do Federal sentences. See page 20 onwards for the evidence that the judge weighed about the ordered hits: https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/17/17A559/20426/20171116135157920_Ulbricht%20Application%20Appendix%20paginated.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/17/17A559/20426/20171...
  - zionic 4y ago
    Wait, how can “evidence” you weren’t convicted with be used for sentencing of a crime you were convicted for? So the gov couldn’t prove its case but it still gets to use that data for sentencing?
    - mikeyouse 4y ago
      So the evidence proved their case for the main charges - as demonstrated by the jury’s guilty verdict. The government then provides a sentencing recommendation and Ross’s lawyers can dispute anything the government claims. The bar for the sentencing enhancements is “a preponderance of evidence” which is something akin to 51% vs guilty / not-guilty which requires the jury to be convinced “beyond a reasonable doubt” or closer to 100%. The judge weighed the evidence, weighed Ulbricht’s lawyers’ responses and found a preponderance of evidence that he did indeed order the hits which enhanced (extended) the sentence he was given. It’s been awhile since I looked at the transcripts but at the time I couldn’t believe how bad his lawyers were. They offered almost no reply to damning accusation after damning accusation.
      - zionic 4y ago
        To me this seems like a fairly clear-cut constitutional violation. You are being deprived of life/liberty at sentencing, if the judge can use information/"accusations" that the government failed to prove then you are being punished without conviction.
  - stale2002 4y ago
    So then yes the charges got dropped. Just say that you agree with them. You don't have to angrily pretend like you are disagreeing. You agree completely, 100% that those charges got dropped.
    - pm90 4y ago
      Facts sans context are utterly meaningless
- tptacek 4y ago
  Those charges were not dropped. They were predicates of his conspiracy charge. The murders-for-hire were charged conduct, brought into the trial and rebuttable by the defense, and considered during sentencing.
  - ssnistfajen 4y ago
    Of the six murder indictments trumpeted by the U.S. government in the days following Ulbricht’s Oct. 2013 arrest, five have fallen off the table and the sixth sits untouched in a separate indictment (legalese for an unproven allegation) that was purposefully left out of the upcoming trial. https://www.dailydot.com/crime/silk-road-murder-charges-ross-ulbricht/ https://www.dailydot.com/crime/silk-road-murder-charges-ross... Ross Ulbricht's Murder-for-Hire Charges Dropped by U.S. Attorney https://reason.com/2018/07/25/ross-ulbrichts-murder-for-hire-charges-d/ https://reason.com/2018/07/25/ross-ulbrichts-murder-for-hire... The conspiracy charges were related to computer hacking and trafficking narcotics, not murder-for-hire which from all the evidences presented was a scheme set up to collect payments from him.
    - tptacek 4y ago
      It's right there in the (final, superseding) indictment, and in the PSR (I think? one of the sentencing filings). This isn't a big controversy for us to hash out; you can just go read it.
      - ssnistfajen 4y ago
        Dropped charges are dropped charges. It's right there in the title and rather baffling how you are glossing over them as if they are alien scriptures.
        tptacek 4y ago
        I'm literally staring at the superseding indictment right now. Page 7. Go look. He was charged, and those charges were not dropped. I don't know what title you're referring to.
everforward 4y ago
Those charges had some issues. He tried to arrange a hit on someone who he thought had stolen $800k in Bitcoin from him, but it turns out one of the FBI agents stole the money and framed someone else. There's also some accusations that the agents pushed him to order the hit. The two taken together could be construed as entrapment, but the charges were dropped so there isn't a conclusive answer.

knodi123 4y ago

Yeah, but Ulbricht had multiple fake passports, and was assumed to have an unknown but enormous amount of hidden cash, and loyal contacts in lots of countries. Not to mention lots of experience living and traveling under a cover identity. He's a much bigger flight risk than a run-of-the-mill murderer.

duped 4y ago

Congress banned parole for federal crimes back in 1987. If you get convicted in federal court you have to do the entire sentence.