5 ms·

I am really annoyed at how we (EU) and the US treat chinese companies and citizens. We (europeans and americans) cant do really anything in China, we have esse

I am really annoyed at how we (EU) and the US treat chinese companies and citizens. We (europeans and americans) cant do really anything in China, we have essentially no rights and cant really conduct business. Unlike chinese who are pretty much granted all of that when they want to immigrate or conduct business in EU/US.

wizofaus 4y ago
That arrangement seems to be almost entirely to the benefit of the EU/US, as there's little incentive for bright/ motivated Europeans or Americans to move to China, vs significant incentive in the opposite direction.
- bgorman 4y ago
  Google and Meta are the best software companies the US has produced in the last 25 years. These two companies are also largely responsible for driving up wages for SV workers. TikTok could destroy both companies.
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    Those two companies will be "destroyed" when they can no longer do what they do as well as their competitors. What the current laws are in China are unlikely to have much impact either way.
    - vineyardmike 4y ago
      The point is that we allow competition from China but they can’t compete in China. It’s asymmetrical competition. The Chinese companies have a bigger population of customers (so more access to make money, more people to serve and grow from etc). China protects their businesses from American competition but we don’t protect our businesses from Chinese competition.
      - wizofaus 4y ago
        When has protecting businesses from competition ever ended well?
        vineyardmike 4y ago
        Define well? There is no singular dimension of “well”. Protect them from international threats works if the goal is stabilizing domestic business for national security purposes. Ask airlines for most of their history. Or look at the ability to use American car factories for the defense production act. Will it produce the best product for their customers? Probably not. Look at American made cars. Not the best product. Will it produce the best outcome for employees? American car companies employee thousands of union jobs that pay very well. What if we successfully starve the competition? What if we don’t? No amount of government intervention was able to kill foreign car companies. But American car companies are still chugging along providing valuable employment to many Americans.
        wizofaus 4y ago
        All I meant is that I don't see ByteDance being the ultimate winners in the current arrangements.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- strangegecko 4y ago
  His point isn't mainly about individuals looking for jobs. It's about the economic environment for doing business in a country. You're basically forced to hand over your IP if you want to operate in China, among many other problems. And btw, the job market for very qualified people in China arguably at least rivals the one in Europe, i.e. you can get better salaries in China than in large parts of Europe.
trasz 4y ago
>We (europeans and americans) cant do really anything in China We - Europeans and pretty much anyone who's not an American - can't do really anything in US.
- duxup 4y ago
  > can't do really anything in US Can you elaborate?
- another_story 4y ago
  Pretty sure anyone can form a US company, citizen or not. You definitely cannot form one in China without Party involvement, and depending on the size, even needing to have a full time Party member on staff.
- AlchemistCamp 4y ago
  That’s not remotely true. You can open a Wyoming LLC and be off to the races in under 48 hours and under $100. I personally know people from half a dozen countries who have done so. Where in the world is more convenient for a foreigner to start and run a business?
  - trasz 4y ago
    I can register certain types of business, but I can’t do anything that actually matters, like entering the country. According to US law I’m not even a proper human, so I could get lawfully executed on the spot, as evidenced by numerous dronings. To compare, within EU I have all the usual rights, from establishing a company to healthcare.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
duxup 4y ago
Agreed. If US or EU companies can’t operate similarly in China, I see no reason to allow it the other way.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
AlexandrB 4y ago
The idea that when entities from two countries interact we have to apply the norms of the least free country to the interaction seems counterproductive. Are we going to ban Afghani women from driving in the US because US women can't drive there? It seems like a race to the bottom.
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  > Are we going to ban Afghani women from driving in the US because US women can't drive there If they don’t have a valid international drivers license (presumed because they don’t drive at home) then literally yes we do de facto ban them. But it’s not about giving the people less rights at home it’s demanding they give us as much rights as we give them. The framing is backwards. Why do we honor their license (for men or women) if they don’t honor ours (incl our women)? Why is it not wrong to demand they treat us as well as we treat them? “If you want America to honor your licenses then you must honor ALL American licenses as equally as America does” Don’t tolerate intolerance. Don’t play games with bad governments. Disclaimer: I have no idea what actual Afghani laws around driving look like I’m just using your example.
  - chii 4y ago
    > Don’t tolerate intolerance. Don’t play games with bad governments. the initial tolerance of the intolerance is due to the idea that by freely trading and allowing trade in such a (asymmetric) fashion, the less democratic country would democratize. Over time, the gov't would become more open and "westernize". That is a miscalculation by the US administration (particularly clinton's, but i won't pin this onto any particular one, as it's a wide policy not decided by a single administration). Neither russia nor china had leadership that would see themselves removed from power - that is their primary prerogative as dictators. And any policy changes that those countries implement is first, and foremost, a policy to keep themselves in power. To the extend that their policies benefit the people, it's done for the express purpose of keeping themselves in power, and never a primary objective. Therefore, it's clear now, that neither china nor russia would want to integrate themselves in to the west as allies and partners. They forever see the west as an adversary to which they must best - it's an imaginary threat, made real by the fact that democratizing means disposing of dictators. This can only end one way. I hope it's the west that wins, because despite the woes and poor performance, it cannot be worse than the alternative.
rr808 4y ago
Hugh Hendry talks about this a lot, its not just tech companies but nearly all industries are like that. We allowed China into the WTO and to trade with the world because we expected them to allow us to sell stuff there. They continue to play the game on their rules, and keeping their currency low by flooding the world with its surplus savings, further enriching itself and causing this huge asset boom in the West. Its not fair, he says we should start by putting extra taxes on the investments owned by Chinese government.
tzs 4y ago
> We (europeans and americans) cant do really anything in China, we have essentially no rights and cant really conduct business. Sure you can. You just have to conduct your business in China under the same rules that Chinese businesses in China have to follow. Most countries or pseudo-countries work this way. For example the EU is about to tell US companies conducting business in Europe that they have to use USB-C for device charging ports and impose a bunch of limits on what exclusive feature hardware makers can include on their devices. But those same rules apply to European businesses operating in the EU and to Chinese companies operating in the EU and to anyone else operating there, so it is fine. This is one of the reasons international businesses often set things up so that they have separate companies in different countries. You set up BigCorp USA, BigCorp China, and BigCorp Germany as separate companies incorporated in those jurisdictions, with the latter two handling all your Chinese and EU customers respectively. Same happens with non-tech businesses. If you wanted to open a chain of international bookstores, you'd face all kinds of restrictions on what books you can sell in various countries. A lot of books that would be fine in your San Francisco store might get you in serious trouble if you carried them in Saudi Arabia. But they would also get a Saudi owned bookstore in trouble too, so you aren't being treated differently.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > You just have to conduct your business in China under the same rules that Chinese businesses in China have to follow. Isn't one of the rules that foreign companies are required to partner with, and thus share all of their trade secrets with, a domestic Chinese company?
  - xster 4y ago
    It isn't. It has been for specifically the auto industry and it generally hasn't had any positive effects for the domestic Chinese auto industry. Their side of the partnership has been mostly sticking with assembly and lower barrier items whereas the drivetrain continued to be made in Germany. This is why China is having a better chance starting from scratch and leapfrogging in electric, and why Tesla is let to not partner with anyone.

wizofaus 4y ago

That arrangement seems to be almost entirely to the benefit of the EU/US, as there's little incentive for bright/ motivated Europeans or Americans to move to China, vs significant incentive in the opposite direction.

bgorman 4y ago
Google and Meta are the best software companies the US has produced in the last 25 years. These two companies are also largely responsible for driving up wages for SV workers. TikTok could destroy both companies.
- wizofaus 4y ago
  Those two companies will be "destroyed" when they can no longer do what they do as well as their competitors. What the current laws are in China are unlikely to have much impact either way.
  - vineyardmike 4y ago
    The point is that we allow competition from China but they can’t compete in China. It’s asymmetrical competition. The Chinese companies have a bigger population of customers (so more access to make money, more people to serve and grow from etc). China protects their businesses from American competition but we don’t protect our businesses from Chinese competition.
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      When has protecting businesses from competition ever ended well?
      - vineyardmike 4y ago
        Define well? There is no singular dimension of “well”. Protect them from international threats works if the goal is stabilizing domestic business for national security purposes. Ask airlines for most of their history. Or look at the ability to use American car factories for the defense production act. Will it produce the best product for their customers? Probably not. Look at American made cars. Not the best product. Will it produce the best outcome for employees? American car companies employee thousands of union jobs that pay very well. What if we successfully starve the competition? What if we don’t? No amount of government intervention was able to kill foreign car companies. But American car companies are still chugging along providing valuable employment to many Americans.
        wizofaus 4y ago
        All I meant is that I don't see ByteDance being the ultimate winners in the current arrangements.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
strangegecko 4y ago
His point isn't mainly about individuals looking for jobs. It's about the economic environment for doing business in a country. You're basically forced to hand over your IP if you want to operate in China, among many other problems. And btw, the job market for very qualified people in China arguably at least rivals the one in Europe, i.e. you can get better salaries in China than in large parts of Europe.

trasz 4y ago

>We (europeans and americans) cant do really anything in China We - Europeans and pretty much anyone who's not an American - can't do really anything in US.

duxup 4y ago
> can't do really anything in US Can you elaborate?
another_story 4y ago
Pretty sure anyone can form a US company, citizen or not. You definitely cannot form one in China without Party involvement, and depending on the size, even needing to have a full time Party member on staff.
AlchemistCamp 4y ago
That’s not remotely true. You can open a Wyoming LLC and be off to the races in under 48 hours and under $100. I personally know people from half a dozen countries who have done so. Where in the world is more convenient for a foreigner to start and run a business?
- trasz 4y ago
  I can register certain types of business, but I can’t do anything that actually matters, like entering the country. According to US law I’m not even a proper human, so I could get lawfully executed on the spot, as evidenced by numerous dronings. To compare, within EU I have all the usual rights, from establishing a company to healthcare.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

duxup 4y ago

Agreed. If US or EU companies can’t operate similarly in China, I see no reason to allow it the other way.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

AlexandrB 4y ago

The idea that when entities from two countries interact we have to apply the norms of the least free country to the interaction seems counterproductive. Are we going to ban Afghani women from driving in the US because US women can't drive there? It seems like a race to the bottom.

vineyardmike 4y ago
> Are we going to ban Afghani women from driving in the US because US women can't drive there If they don’t have a valid international drivers license (presumed because they don’t drive at home) then literally yes we do de facto ban them. But it’s not about giving the people less rights at home it’s demanding they give us as much rights as we give them. The framing is backwards. Why do we honor their license (for men or women) if they don’t honor ours (incl our women)? Why is it not wrong to demand they treat us as well as we treat them? “If you want America to honor your licenses then you must honor ALL American licenses as equally as America does” Don’t tolerate intolerance. Don’t play games with bad governments. Disclaimer: I have no idea what actual Afghani laws around driving look like I’m just using your example.
- chii 4y ago
  > Don’t tolerate intolerance. Don’t play games with bad governments. the initial tolerance of the intolerance is due to the idea that by freely trading and allowing trade in such a (asymmetric) fashion, the less democratic country would democratize. Over time, the gov't would become more open and "westernize". That is a miscalculation by the US administration (particularly clinton's, but i won't pin this onto any particular one, as it's a wide policy not decided by a single administration). Neither russia nor china had leadership that would see themselves removed from power - that is their primary prerogative as dictators. And any policy changes that those countries implement is first, and foremost, a policy to keep themselves in power. To the extend that their policies benefit the people, it's done for the express purpose of keeping themselves in power, and never a primary objective. Therefore, it's clear now, that neither china nor russia would want to integrate themselves in to the west as allies and partners. They forever see the west as an adversary to which they must best - it's an imaginary threat, made real by the fact that democratizing means disposing of dictators. This can only end one way. I hope it's the west that wins, because despite the woes and poor performance, it cannot be worse than the alternative.

rr808 4y ago

Hugh Hendry talks about this a lot, its not just tech companies but nearly all industries are like that. We allowed China into the WTO and to trade with the world because we expected them to allow us to sell stuff there. They continue to play the game on their rules, and keeping their currency low by flooding the world with its surplus savings, further enriching itself and causing this huge asset boom in the West. Its not fair, he says we should start by putting extra taxes on the investments owned by Chinese government.

tzs 4y ago

> We (europeans and americans) cant do really anything in China, we have essentially no rights and cant really conduct business. Sure you can. You just have to conduct your business in China under the same rules that Chinese businesses in China have to follow. Most countries or pseudo-countries work this way. For example the EU is about to tell US companies conducting business in Europe that they have to use USB-C for device charging ports and impose a bunch of limits on what exclusive feature hardware makers can include on their devices. But those same rules apply to European businesses operating in the EU and to Chinese companies operating in the EU and to anyone else operating there, so it is fine. This is one of the reasons international businesses often set things up so that they have separate companies in different countries. You set up BigCorp USA, BigCorp China, and BigCorp Germany as separate companies incorporated in those jurisdictions, with the latter two handling all your Chinese and EU customers respectively. Same happens with non-tech businesses. If you wanted to open a chain of international bookstores, you'd face all kinds of restrictions on what books you can sell in various countries. A lot of books that would be fine in your San Francisco store might get you in serious trouble if you carried them in Saudi Arabia. But they would also get a Saudi owned bookstore in trouble too, so you aren't being treated differently.

josephcsible 4y ago
> You just have to conduct your business in China under the same rules that Chinese businesses in China have to follow. Isn't one of the rules that foreign companies are required to partner with, and thus share all of their trade secrets with, a domestic Chinese company?
- xster 4y ago
  It isn't. It has been for specifically the auto industry and it generally hasn't had any positive effects for the domestic Chinese auto industry. Their side of the partnership has been mostly sticking with assembly and lower barrier items whereas the drivetrain continued to be made in Germany. This is why China is having a better chance starting from scratch and leapfrogging in electric, and why Tesla is let to not partner with anyone.