7 ms·

I”m open to good-faith criticism of TikTok, but “our authoritarians don’t like an app controlled by their authoritarians” isn’t particularly compelling.

rcpt 4y ago
"the US and PRC are equally authoritarian" isn't particularly compelling either
- drno123 4y ago
  Sure, since in the last 20 years US invaded Iraq, Afganistan and Lybia while PRC invaded 0 countries.
  - ALittleLight 4y ago
    Authoritarianism is not measured by invasion count.
    - sudosysgen 4y ago
      It can't be used alone, but invasion or not destroying the lives of dozens of millions of people violently for marginal gain is authoritarian and it's the essence of the problem with authoritarianism.
  - aesthesia 4y ago
    Authoritarianism and military aggression are not the same thing.
  - jjcon 4y ago
    "Invaded" language and situational nuance aside, that has everything to do with superpower status and nothing to do with being authoritarian...
    - foverzar 4y ago
      I don't really get why people imply that these two are somehow disconnected. A global superpower that systematically employs military agression to impose its will somewhere far away around the globe is definitely authoritarian. Even if it had managed to create a convincing brand of democracy benifiting only, like, 5% of global population.
      - jjcon 4y ago
        Because those events specifically are not connected to authoritarianism - and more generally military might is not is not authoritarian at least not directly. We’re talking how governments govern, not their ability to project power. EG - North Korea is the most authoritarian state in the world but we haven’t seen them “invade” anyone “in the last 20 years”. The two are not directly related.
  - _-david-_ 4y ago
    Could you remind me which country took over Hong Kong and which country is trying to take land from India?
    - drno123 4y ago
      According to an agreement between UK and China, Hong Kong was transferred back to China.
      - _-david-_ 4y ago
        The agreement in 1997 was for 50 years of autonomy. Unless I am missing something it is not 2047.
- mjmsmith 4y ago
  I didn’t say they were equally authoritarian. But if you’re more concerned about TikTok’s corrosive effect on American democracy than Donald Trump’s and Ted Cruz’s, I’m not sure what to say.
  - ravenstine 4y ago
    No one here said that TikTok is more corrosive than Trump or Cruz, and you're the only one who brought up democracy. Speaking of the latter, even a purely democratic society can be authoritarian.
    - mjmsmith 4y ago
      From the article: “TikTok’s growing role as a news platform has sparked fears that, in the words of Ted Cruz, an American senator, it is “a Trojan horse the Chinese Communist Party can use to influence what Americans see, hear and ultimately think”.
      - djbusby 4y ago
        It's been demonstrated that Facebook heavily influenced what many Americans "see, hear and ultimately think"
      - ravenstine 4y ago
        Maybe you have the opinion that Ted Cruz's policy is corrosive to democracy (however you define that) and more so than that of TikTok, but neither the article nor anyone in the thread suggested anything contrary. The article is remarkably neutral, considering it's from the Economist. So what is your point? That no one should be concerned about TikTok until the eternal evil of the Republican party has been thoroughly addressed?
- okasaki 4y ago
  Indeed, abortion is legal in China[1], the last time a police officer killed someone was in 2019[2] and their incarceration rate is 5x lower[3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_China [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...
  - stale2002 4y ago
    Look if you disagree that china is more authoritarian, then I would encourage you to go there, and make a large amount of public statements making fun of their leaders, or saying that Taiwan in a country, (while in china). And to do it in a public and viral way, and see how it works out for you.
    - gardenhedge 4y ago
      Please don't do this.
  - lostmsu 4y ago
    The police in China doesn't kill with guns. It kills by preventing people from demanding better healthcare. The same goes for incarceration. In US 3M people can't use Internet due to being incarcerated, but in China more than 1.5B have significant restrictions. (This is just an example for the idea of total restricted freedom)
    - okasaki 4y ago
      > The police in China doesn't kill with guns. It kills by preventing people from demanding better healthcare. Given the efforts that China has put in to stopping the spread of cov19 over the past 2 years, that seems delusional. Also, Chinese life expectancy has exceeded the US now[1] [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7vevb/us-life-expectancy-falls-behind-china https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7vevb/us-life-expectancy-fa... > The same goes for incarceration. In US 3M people can't use Internet due to being incarcerated, but in China more than 1.5B have significant restrictions. (This is just an example for the idea of total restricted freedom) All countries have restricted interactions on the internet. Go ahead and google how to make a pressure cooker bomb and see how long you have a job after the secret service starts asking your employer questions about you, or download some songs and get sued 150k per song by the RIAA. Given the head start by foreign countries and the radical nature of the internet (totally different way to communicate) some caution and restrictions probably aren't out of order.

rcpt 4y ago

"the US and PRC are equally authoritarian" isn't particularly compelling either

drno123 4y ago
Sure, since in the last 20 years US invaded Iraq, Afganistan and Lybia while PRC invaded 0 countries.
- ALittleLight 4y ago
  Authoritarianism is not measured by invasion count.
  - sudosysgen 4y ago
    It can't be used alone, but invasion or not destroying the lives of dozens of millions of people violently for marginal gain is authoritarian and it's the essence of the problem with authoritarianism.
- aesthesia 4y ago
  Authoritarianism and military aggression are not the same thing.
- jjcon 4y ago
  "Invaded" language and situational nuance aside, that has everything to do with superpower status and nothing to do with being authoritarian...
  - foverzar 4y ago
    I don't really get why people imply that these two are somehow disconnected. A global superpower that systematically employs military agression to impose its will somewhere far away around the globe is definitely authoritarian. Even if it had managed to create a convincing brand of democracy benifiting only, like, 5% of global population.
    - jjcon 4y ago
      Because those events specifically are not connected to authoritarianism - and more generally military might is not is not authoritarian at least not directly. We’re talking how governments govern, not their ability to project power. EG - North Korea is the most authoritarian state in the world but we haven’t seen them “invade” anyone “in the last 20 years”. The two are not directly related.
- _-david-_ 4y ago
  Could you remind me which country took over Hong Kong and which country is trying to take land from India?
  - drno123 4y ago
    According to an agreement between UK and China, Hong Kong was transferred back to China.
    - _-david-_ 4y ago
      The agreement in 1997 was for 50 years of autonomy. Unless I am missing something it is not 2047.
mjmsmith 4y ago
I didn’t say they were equally authoritarian. But if you’re more concerned about TikTok’s corrosive effect on American democracy than Donald Trump’s and Ted Cruz’s, I’m not sure what to say.
- ravenstine 4y ago
  No one here said that TikTok is more corrosive than Trump or Cruz, and you're the only one who brought up democracy. Speaking of the latter, even a purely democratic society can be authoritarian.
  - mjmsmith 4y ago
    From the article: “TikTok’s growing role as a news platform has sparked fears that, in the words of Ted Cruz, an American senator, it is “a Trojan horse the Chinese Communist Party can use to influence what Americans see, hear and ultimately think”.
    - djbusby 4y ago
      It's been demonstrated that Facebook heavily influenced what many Americans "see, hear and ultimately think"
    - ravenstine 4y ago
      Maybe you have the opinion that Ted Cruz's policy is corrosive to democracy (however you define that) and more so than that of TikTok, but neither the article nor anyone in the thread suggested anything contrary. The article is remarkably neutral, considering it's from the Economist. So what is your point? That no one should be concerned about TikTok until the eternal evil of the Republican party has been thoroughly addressed?
okasaki 4y ago
Indeed, abortion is legal in China[1], the last time a police officer killed someone was in 2019[2] and their incarceration rate is 5x lower[3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_China [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforc... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...
- stale2002 4y ago
  Look if you disagree that china is more authoritarian, then I would encourage you to go there, and make a large amount of public statements making fun of their leaders, or saying that Taiwan in a country, (while in china). And to do it in a public and viral way, and see how it works out for you.
  - gardenhedge 4y ago
    Please don't do this.
- lostmsu 4y ago
  The police in China doesn't kill with guns. It kills by preventing people from demanding better healthcare. The same goes for incarceration. In US 3M people can't use Internet due to being incarcerated, but in China more than 1.5B have significant restrictions. (This is just an example for the idea of total restricted freedom)
  - okasaki 4y ago
    > The police in China doesn't kill with guns. It kills by preventing people from demanding better healthcare. Given the efforts that China has put in to stopping the spread of cov19 over the past 2 years, that seems delusional. Also, Chinese life expectancy has exceeded the US now[1] [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7vevb/us-life-expectancy-falls-behind-china https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7vevb/us-life-expectancy-fa... > The same goes for incarceration. In US 3M people can't use Internet due to being incarcerated, but in China more than 1.5B have significant restrictions. (This is just an example for the idea of total restricted freedom) All countries have restricted interactions on the internet. Go ahead and google how to make a pressure cooker bomb and see how long you have a job after the secret service starts asking your employer questions about you, or download some songs and get sued 150k per song by the RIAA. Given the head start by foreign countries and the radical nature of the internet (totally different way to communicate) some caution and restrictions probably aren't out of order.