8 ms·

As an incidental remark: I find it remarkable that on the surface I now know of three G7 countries / liberal democracies where the PM/President is the (grand)

by dav_Oz 4y ago

As an incidental remark: I find it remarkable that on the surface I now know of three G7 countries / liberal democracies where the PM/President is the (grand)son of a PM/President himself. Bush Sr - Bush Jr Pierre Trudeau - Justin Trudeau Nobusuke Kishi - (Shintaro Abe; FM) - Shinzo Abe [Honorary mention: France with "Le Pen" both father & daughter made it to the second round in the presidential elections (2002; 2017 and 2022)]

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
geysersam 4y ago
It's ridiculous. I'd never vote for a president's relative as the next president. It's a matter of hygiene. There must be other equally (more) suitable candidates. Voting for relatives gives us presidents like Bush Jr.
- mcv 4y ago
  Having a familiar name should become a negative instead of a positive for a politician. Voters should assume they're just riding their famous relative's coattails unless clearly proven otherwise.
bigDinosaur 4y ago
You get automatic name recognition by being the child of a former leader, and that applies even if the former leader was unpopular. The hardest thing in national politics is probably becoming, essentially, known in the first place, so they start with a colossal advantage.
- Brendinooo 4y ago
  This, and I’d imagine politics is like anything else: you would really benefit from having people who’ve been there before to help you navigate. It’s the same reason why a lot of children of pro athletes become pro athletes.
  - confidantlake 4y ago
    I imagine that genetics is probably the biggest reason for athletes.
    - Brendinooo 4y ago
      It’s an important reason, but being connected enough to get noticed and getting the right instruction to succeed are also major pieces of the puzzle. https://www.theplayerstribune.com/articles/left-out https://www.theplayerstribune.com/articles/left-out
cmrdporcupine 4y ago
It's a disturbing trend and indicative of failing health / vibrancy of political systems. Same with running Hilary Clinton. Half of the entire point of the democratic turn in western states after the enlightenment and the French revolution was to attempt take power away from powerful families and abolish heritable power. I found it very alarming when Trudeau Jr was plucked out of relative obscurity and turned into a political figure here, and I found it quite absurd that he won with hardly any experience or qualification beyond his family name. Especially when the other centre-left opposition candidate at the time (Mulcair&the NDP) was very strong, an extremely competent opposition leader with strong support in Quebec, a long political history and a strong base, and the NDP were polling in majority territory prior to (and in the early part) the election. Honestly, I'm still bitter about that election and its results. I think it's actually turned out disastrous for Canada.
- ep103 4y ago
  You can add Trump to that list as well, though it isn't a genetic inheritance. Chomsky's Requiem for the American Dream lays out in detail how intertwined the Trump family has been in conservative national politics for ages
- alisonatwork 4y ago
  Politicians don't really need to be good at policy. They have people to do that. They just need to be charismatic - able to capture the imagination of a constituency, and able to persuade other politicians to support their platform. Of course it'd be nice if our politicians were well-educated in the details of the policies they are championing, and if they could independently reason about the pros and cons, but realistically that's not what they're there for. They're like the sales guys at work - they might have some personal interest in techy details, but it's not what they're hired to do or what they excel at. They're hired to make the sales, not the product. I think the party strategists who picked a pretty face and a familiar name to represent the party did a decent job. Trudeau continues to have the confidence of most of his party, which is why he's still in the leadership position. He's clearly inoffensive enough that he can maintain support inside the party while also not igniting enough of a backlash amongst the voting public to indisputably defeat his party in 2021. He might be a milquetoast character representing an ideologically unadventurous party, but perhaps that's all he's meant to be?
savanaly 4y ago
It's important to keep in mind that this might be less sinister than it first appears (or more...there's that interpretation too). The "Great families" idea reaches beyond politics into science and art as well: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/secrets-of-the-great-families https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/secrets-of-the-great-f....
- stevenjgarner 4y ago
  Thought provoking. I would love to see that article extended to include artists - e.g. musicians like Johann Sebastian Bach, whose father Johann Ambrosius Bach was a violinist employed in Erfurt (who was twin brother to Johann Christoph Bach another great Baroque musician). These brothers were the sons of Christoph Bach, court musician in Germany. On the descendent side, Johann's fifth child and second surviving son Karl Philipp Emmanuel Bach (C. P. E. Bach) - the "Hamburg Bach" - was a musician and influential composer. His brother, Johann Christian Bach, or the "London Bach" (the 18th child of Johann Sebastian!), was music master to the Queen of Great Britain. There's more [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach_family https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach_family
  - filoeleven 4y ago
    I see that P.D.Q. Bach is still being ignored and treated as some kind of joke. The Wikipedia article doesn’t even mention him.
    - chongli 4y ago
      Wikipedia does have an article on P.D.Q. Bach [1]. Do you have any sources to contradict the article’s claim that he’s a fictional character? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._D._Q._Bach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._D._Q._Bach
      - filoeleven 4y ago
        Nope. Notice that I didn’t call his status unwarranted. My intent wasn’t to trick anyone; I just couldn’t pass up replying to a post that plays so perfectly into the character’s creation myth. But if you’re one of the exceedingly rare HNers who might enjoy “orchestral musical comedy” now that you know it exists, he’s worth a listen. This piece is more like sketch comedy than his others, so is more generally enjoyable even if you’re not an orchestral music nerd. https://youtu.be/MzXoVo16pTg https://youtu.be/MzXoVo16pTg
ch4s3 4y ago
It's especially crazy considering who Nobusuke Kishi was, and the things he did.
- tartoran 4y ago
  Known for his exploitative rule of the Japanese puppet state of Manchukuo in Northeast China in the 1930s, Kishi was nicknamed the "Monster of the Shōwa era" (昭和の妖怪; Shōwa no yōkai).[1] Kishi later served in the wartime cabinet of Prime Minister Hideki Tōjō as Minister of Commerce and Vice Minister of Munitions,[2] and co-signed the declaration of war against the United States on December 7, 1941. After World War II, Kishi was imprisoned for three years as a suspected Class A war criminal. However, the U.S. government did not charge, try, or convict him, and eventually released him as they considered Kishi to be the best man to lead a post-war Japan in a pro-American direction. With U.S. support, he went on to consolidate the Japanese conservative camp against perceived threats from the Japan Socialist Party in the 1950s. Kishi was instrumental in the formation of the powerful Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) through a merger of smaller conservative parties in 1955, and thus is credited with being a key player in the initiation of the "1955 System", the extended period during which the LDP was the overwhelmingly dominant political party in Japan.[3][4] As prime minister, Kishi's mishandling of the 1960 revision of the U.S.-Japan Security Treaty led to the massive 1960 Anpo protests, which were the largest protests in Japan's modern history and which forced him to resign in disgrace. [0] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobusuke_Kishi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobusuke_Kishi
stevenjgarner 4y ago
Not a G7, but India notably is the most populous democracy in the world: Rajiv Gandhi, 6th Prime Minister of India, son of Indira Gandhi who was 3rd Prime Minister of India, who herself was daughter of Jawaharlal Nehru, the 1st prime minister of India.
- fb03 4y ago
  basically a glorified monarchy, then, since rich families have access to better ads/PR around their candidacies
- School-Cotton 4y ago
  Rajiv Gandhi’s wife Sonia and son Rahul are also major political figures in India.
alisonatwork 4y ago
This happens all over the world. The new president of Philippines is the son of a former president. In Pakistan two members of the Bhutto family have been PM and another was president. In Chile there was the Allende family, in America there is the Kennedys and the Clintons and dozens more examples below the presidency. I don't think it should be surprising that politicians can have family members who also make a career in politics. The same thing happens with public figures like actors, musicians and sports people. But it also happens with doctors and lawyers and soldiers and police and bakers and plumbers and hair stylists. Although there are plenty of people who grow up to do something different from their parents, there is definitely motivation to "follow in the footsteps". If nothing else, you can probably leverage a built-in support network. The question that's important for democracy is if it's possible for someone to break in to a political system if they are not a member of a pre-existing dynasty. So far I think in most countries that is still the case. Certainly it's better than feudal times.
- flobosg 4y ago
  > In Chile there was the Allende family A much better example would be the Frei family, with both Eduardo Frei Montalva and his son, Eduardo Frei Ruiz-Tagle, having served as presidents and several other members having different political positions. Frei Montalva, by the way, preceded Salvador Allende.
Smithalicious 4y ago
I don't think it's that weird. You wouldn't think much of a famous cook being the son of another famous cook, or likewise for a famous athlete, chess player, religious leader, etc. A child is influenced by their parents through both nature (genetics) and nurture (childrearing). Of course stuff like connections, name recognition, favors and backroom deals are a thing as well which are various levels of bad and preventable.
- kevinmchugh 4y ago
  There's different ways to think about it but it's pretty rare for both a patent and child to be great athletes, at least in the same sport. It happens, there's exceptions. Michael Jordan's sons didn't play professional basketball. For elite sports, having an elite athlete parent has low predictive power.
  - anonAndOn 4y ago
    Pro athletes beget pro athletes All. The. Time. Cherry picking some of the NBAs MVPs, you might not remember Dell Curry[0], but you probably know one or both(!) of his sons who play in the NBA. Or there's Joe Bryant[1] whose son eclipsed his career in the NBA. Or, here's a fun sport switching family. Sometimes the athletic gene is so strong, four of the great-grandsons go pro.[2] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_Curry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_Curry [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Bryant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Bryant [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_Gronkowski https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_Gronkowski
- vintermann 4y ago
  A politician isn't like a cook, or an athlete, or a flute player, or a pilot. That claim was why the Athenians - rightly - called Socrates an idiot. One who didn't understand the point of protecting his interest through participating in politics. A politician isn't supposed to administrate, he's supposed to represent people's interests - those who elected him in our system. He doesn't pilot the ship, he says where the ship should go in the first place. To the degree mere competence is required, he can hire someone to help him. When family dynasties happen in politics, it's doubly a bad sign. First, there's no reason to think the son of a representative is accurately representative just because the father was. There's always the risk that he could be advancing private interests at the expense of the public he represents. And second: that the son is even there, is itself evidence that the father may have done just that, advancing his family interest over the public's.
jomjomv 4y ago
Not on G7 of course but you should check Greece.
rossdavidh 4y ago
The U.S. had John and John Quincy Adams and William Henry and Benjamin Harrison. Al Gore was the son of a Senator, and John F Kennedy's family had numerous high-profile politicians, including his father being US Ambassador to the UK. This is not a new development. Not saying it's good, just that it's not new.
arunc 4y ago
Not just G7, it's so common in many democratic nations. Wonder if anyone did a study of democracy and nepotism.
rasz 4y ago
Speaking of family cronyism, cults and assassinations lets not forget SKorea Park Geun-hye and her father Park Chung-hee.
odiroot 4y ago
Singapore is even more interesting with Lee Kuan Yew and Lee Hsien Long.
- ssnistfajen 4y ago
  Singapore is a flawed democracy at best.
danielodievich 4y ago
This situation is incredibly well covered by the book that I just finished called The Aristocracy of Talent - How Meritocracy Made the Modern World By Adrian Wooldridge. It is a riveting read covering the history of how power was passed through (father->son) for a long time, how it changed with meritocracy in last 200 years and how it is currently going back, with a twist. Great review https://www.city-journal.org/review-of-the-aristocracy-of-talent-by-adrian-wooldridge https://www.city-journal.org/review-of-the-aristocracy-of-ta.... A worthy and very relevant read for current troubled times
Theory42 4y ago
One might reach the conclusion that this sort of thing is human nature. Not all natural inclinations are good...
suction 4y ago
In Japan, anything but political dynasties would be seen as „not normal“ by the voters. Politician is a family business like an Udon restaurant - the eldest son of a politician is expected to become a politician, too. And many of these dynasties go back to feudal times or earlier. In Japan, I heard more that once about some scandal-addled politician that „he comes from a samurai family“. That means he’s above law in the Western sense. What ever bad thing such a person does - a showy apology and a deep bow will heal all wounds with the majority of voters.

by dav_Oz 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

geysersam 4y ago

It's ridiculous. I'd never vote for a president's relative as the next president. It's a matter of hygiene. There must be other equally (more) suitable candidates. Voting for relatives gives us presidents like Bush Jr.

mcv 4y ago
Having a familiar name should become a negative instead of a positive for a politician. Voters should assume they're just riding their famous relative's coattails unless clearly proven otherwise.

bigDinosaur 4y ago

You get automatic name recognition by being the child of a former leader, and that applies even if the former leader was unpopular. The hardest thing in national politics is probably becoming, essentially, known in the first place, so they start with a colossal advantage.

Brendinooo 4y ago
This, and I’d imagine politics is like anything else: you would really benefit from having people who’ve been there before to help you navigate. It’s the same reason why a lot of children of pro athletes become pro athletes.
- confidantlake 4y ago
  I imagine that genetics is probably the biggest reason for athletes.
  - Brendinooo 4y ago
    It’s an important reason, but being connected enough to get noticed and getting the right instruction to succeed are also major pieces of the puzzle. https://www.theplayerstribune.com/articles/left-out https://www.theplayerstribune.com/articles/left-out

cmrdporcupine 4y ago

It's a disturbing trend and indicative of failing health / vibrancy of political systems. Same with running Hilary Clinton. Half of the entire point of the democratic turn in western states after the enlightenment and the French revolution was to attempt take power away from powerful families and abolish heritable power. I found it very alarming when Trudeau Jr was plucked out of relative obscurity and turned into a political figure here, and I found it quite absurd that he won with hardly any experience or qualification beyond his family name. Especially when the other centre-left opposition candidate at the time (Mulcair&the NDP) was very strong, an extremely competent opposition leader with strong support in Quebec, a long political history and a strong base, and the NDP were polling in majority territory prior to (and in the early part) the election. Honestly, I'm still bitter about that election and its results. I think it's actually turned out disastrous for Canada.

ep103 4y ago
You can add Trump to that list as well, though it isn't a genetic inheritance. Chomsky's Requiem for the American Dream lays out in detail how intertwined the Trump family has been in conservative national politics for ages
alisonatwork 4y ago
Politicians don't really need to be good at policy. They have people to do that. They just need to be charismatic - able to capture the imagination of a constituency, and able to persuade other politicians to support their platform. Of course it'd be nice if our politicians were well-educated in the details of the policies they are championing, and if they could independently reason about the pros and cons, but realistically that's not what they're there for. They're like the sales guys at work - they might have some personal interest in techy details, but it's not what they're hired to do or what they excel at. They're hired to make the sales, not the product. I think the party strategists who picked a pretty face and a familiar name to represent the party did a decent job. Trudeau continues to have the confidence of most of his party, which is why he's still in the leadership position. He's clearly inoffensive enough that he can maintain support inside the party while also not igniting enough of a backlash amongst the voting public to indisputably defeat his party in 2021. He might be a milquetoast character representing an ideologically unadventurous party, but perhaps that's all he's meant to be?

savanaly 4y ago

It's important to keep in mind that this might be less sinister than it first appears (or more...there's that interpretation too). The "Great families" idea reaches beyond politics into science and art as well: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/secrets-of-the-great-families https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/secrets-of-the-great-f....

stevenjgarner 4y ago
Thought provoking. I would love to see that article extended to include artists - e.g. musicians like Johann Sebastian Bach, whose father Johann Ambrosius Bach was a violinist employed in Erfurt (who was twin brother to Johann Christoph Bach another great Baroque musician). These brothers were the sons of Christoph Bach, court musician in Germany. On the descendent side, Johann's fifth child and second surviving son Karl Philipp Emmanuel Bach (C. P. E. Bach) - the "Hamburg Bach" - was a musician and influential composer. His brother, Johann Christian Bach, or the "London Bach" (the 18th child of Johann Sebastian!), was music master to the Queen of Great Britain. There's more [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach_family https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bach_family
- filoeleven 4y ago
  I see that P.D.Q. Bach is still being ignored and treated as some kind of joke. The Wikipedia article doesn’t even mention him.
  - chongli 4y ago
    Wikipedia does have an article on P.D.Q. Bach [1]. Do you have any sources to contradict the article’s claim that he’s a fictional character? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._D._Q._Bach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P._D._Q._Bach
    - filoeleven 4y ago
      Nope. Notice that I didn’t call his status unwarranted. My intent wasn’t to trick anyone; I just couldn’t pass up replying to a post that plays so perfectly into the character’s creation myth. But if you’re one of the exceedingly rare HNers who might enjoy “orchestral musical comedy” now that you know it exists, he’s worth a listen. This piece is more like sketch comedy than his others, so is more generally enjoyable even if you’re not an orchestral music nerd. https://youtu.be/MzXoVo16pTg https://youtu.be/MzXoVo16pTg

ch4s3 4y ago

It's especially crazy considering who Nobusuke Kishi was, and the things he did.

tartoran 4y ago
Known for his exploitative rule of the Japanese puppet state of Manchukuo in Northeast China in the 1930s, Kishi was nicknamed the "Monster of the Shōwa era" (昭和の妖怪; Shōwa no yōkai).[1] Kishi later served in the wartime cabinet of Prime Minister Hideki Tōjō as Minister of Commerce and Vice Minister of Munitions,[2] and co-signed the declaration of war against the United States on December 7, 1941. After World War II, Kishi was imprisoned for three years as a suspected Class A war criminal. However, the U.S. government did not charge, try, or convict him, and eventually released him as they considered Kishi to be the best man to lead a post-war Japan in a pro-American direction. With U.S. support, he went on to consolidate the Japanese conservative camp against perceived threats from the Japan Socialist Party in the 1950s. Kishi was instrumental in the formation of the powerful Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) through a merger of smaller conservative parties in 1955, and thus is credited with being a key player in the initiation of the "1955 System", the extended period during which the LDP was the overwhelmingly dominant political party in Japan.[3][4] As prime minister, Kishi's mishandling of the 1960 revision of the U.S.-Japan Security Treaty led to the massive 1960 Anpo protests, which were the largest protests in Japan's modern history and which forced him to resign in disgrace. [0] - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobusuke_Kishi https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobusuke_Kishi

stevenjgarner 4y ago

Not a G7, but India notably is the most populous democracy in the world: Rajiv Gandhi, 6th Prime Minister of India, son of Indira Gandhi who was 3rd Prime Minister of India, who herself was daughter of Jawaharlal Nehru, the 1st prime minister of India.

fb03 4y ago
basically a glorified monarchy, then, since rich families have access to better ads/PR around their candidacies
School-Cotton 4y ago
Rajiv Gandhi’s wife Sonia and son Rahul are also major political figures in India.

alisonatwork 4y ago

This happens all over the world. The new president of Philippines is the son of a former president. In Pakistan two members of the Bhutto family have been PM and another was president. In Chile there was the Allende family, in America there is the Kennedys and the Clintons and dozens more examples below the presidency. I don't think it should be surprising that politicians can have family members who also make a career in politics. The same thing happens with public figures like actors, musicians and sports people. But it also happens with doctors and lawyers and soldiers and police and bakers and plumbers and hair stylists. Although there are plenty of people who grow up to do something different from their parents, there is definitely motivation to "follow in the footsteps". If nothing else, you can probably leverage a built-in support network. The question that's important for democracy is if it's possible for someone to break in to a political system if they are not a member of a pre-existing dynasty. So far I think in most countries that is still the case. Certainly it's better than feudal times.

flobosg 4y ago
> In Chile there was the Allende family A much better example would be the Frei family, with both Eduardo Frei Montalva and his son, Eduardo Frei Ruiz-Tagle, having served as presidents and several other members having different political positions. Frei Montalva, by the way, preceded Salvador Allende.

Smithalicious 4y ago

I don't think it's that weird. You wouldn't think much of a famous cook being the son of another famous cook, or likewise for a famous athlete, chess player, religious leader, etc. A child is influenced by their parents through both nature (genetics) and nurture (childrearing). Of course stuff like connections, name recognition, favors and backroom deals are a thing as well which are various levels of bad and preventable.

kevinmchugh 4y ago
There's different ways to think about it but it's pretty rare for both a patent and child to be great athletes, at least in the same sport. It happens, there's exceptions. Michael Jordan's sons didn't play professional basketball. For elite sports, having an elite athlete parent has low predictive power.
- anonAndOn 4y ago
  Pro athletes beget pro athletes All. The. Time. Cherry picking some of the NBAs MVPs, you might not remember Dell Curry[0], but you probably know one or both(!) of his sons who play in the NBA. Or there's Joe Bryant[1] whose son eclipsed his career in the NBA. Or, here's a fun sport switching family. Sometimes the athletic gene is so strong, four of the great-grandsons go pro.[2] [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_Curry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dell_Curry [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Bryant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Bryant [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_Gronkowski https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_Gronkowski
vintermann 4y ago
A politician isn't like a cook, or an athlete, or a flute player, or a pilot. That claim was why the Athenians - rightly - called Socrates an idiot. One who didn't understand the point of protecting his interest through participating in politics. A politician isn't supposed to administrate, he's supposed to represent people's interests - those who elected him in our system. He doesn't pilot the ship, he says where the ship should go in the first place. To the degree mere competence is required, he can hire someone to help him. When family dynasties happen in politics, it's doubly a bad sign. First, there's no reason to think the son of a representative is accurately representative just because the father was. There's always the risk that he could be advancing private interests at the expense of the public he represents. And second: that the son is even there, is itself evidence that the father may have done just that, advancing his family interest over the public's.

jomjomv 4y ago

Not on G7 of course but you should check Greece.

rossdavidh 4y ago

The U.S. had John and John Quincy Adams and William Henry and Benjamin Harrison. Al Gore was the son of a Senator, and John F Kennedy's family had numerous high-profile politicians, including his father being US Ambassador to the UK. This is not a new development. Not saying it's good, just that it's not new.

arunc 4y ago

Not just G7, it's so common in many democratic nations. Wonder if anyone did a study of democracy and nepotism.

rasz 4y ago

Speaking of family cronyism, cults and assassinations lets not forget SKorea Park Geun-hye and her father Park Chung-hee.

odiroot 4y ago

Singapore is even more interesting with Lee Kuan Yew and Lee Hsien Long.

ssnistfajen 4y ago
Singapore is a flawed democracy at best.

danielodievich 4y ago

This situation is incredibly well covered by the book that I just finished called The Aristocracy of Talent - How Meritocracy Made the Modern World By Adrian Wooldridge. It is a riveting read covering the history of how power was passed through (father->son) for a long time, how it changed with meritocracy in last 200 years and how it is currently going back, with a twist. Great review https://www.city-journal.org/review-of-the-aristocracy-of-talent-by-adrian-wooldridge https://www.city-journal.org/review-of-the-aristocracy-of-ta.... A worthy and very relevant read for current troubled times

Theory42 4y ago

One might reach the conclusion that this sort of thing is human nature. Not all natural inclinations are good...

suction 4y ago

In Japan, anything but political dynasties would be seen as „not normal“ by the voters. Politician is a family business like an Udon restaurant - the eldest son of a politician is expected to become a politician, too. And many of these dynasties go back to feudal times or earlier. In Japan, I heard more that once about some scandal-addled politician that „he comes from a samurai family“. That means he’s above law in the Western sense. What ever bad thing such a person does - a showy apology and a deep bow will heal all wounds with the majority of voters.