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With modern technology there are much more interesting things you can do, esp if you combine with battery storage and real time pricing. One of the main issues

• viraptor 4y ago
  > There is no incentive for people not to use electricity during those huge peaks Is that documented / true on a large scale? Anecdotally, I know a few people who turn on the clothes dryer, dishwasher, etc. at night or schedule the washing machine to start at 5am to run them on the lower tariff period. Maybe it's not very common though.
  • rr808 4y ago
    Every country and plan seems different. For everyone in my city we have a flat price all month.
  • dismalpedigree 4y ago
    Depends on the utility/state. Some have different rates depending on time of day. Where I live does not. We pay a straight per kwh rate regardless of when used and how “spikey” our pattern is. The total per month is segregated into tiers, so the per kwh rate is incrementally higher as your total consumption climbs.
    • landemva 4y ago
      This is a good description of electric rate tariff which is becoming more prevalent in USA. It depends on what rate tariffs are approved by the regulator.
  • avianlyric 4y ago
    You’ve missed the previous sentence. > One of the main issues is that for residential pays a flat rate all the time. There is no incentive for people not to use electricity during those huge peaks I’ve you’ve got a lower rate at night, then you dont’t have flat rate tariff. Something very common in most of the world. Having a lower night rate means you obviously have an incentive, that’s the entire reason it’s offered.
  • Scoundreller 4y ago
    Ontario Canada found that residential Time of Use (TOU) billing only shifted demand by 3% at the beginning of rollout, diminishing to 1% shifting in subsequent years. And "little evidence of conservation". Figure ES1, Pg 8: https://www.brattle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/7289_analysis_of_ontarios_full_scale_roll-out_of_tou_rates_-_final_study-3.pdf https://www.brattle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/7289_anal... And "General service class [IE: commercial] customers show little evidence of load shifting behavior and are less responsive to the TOU prices than residential customers. However, general service class customers show some mixed evidence of conservation, although this is still marginal." But they don't like to publish this info much. Smart meters were controversial (from it's giving me headaches, to this costs a lot of money for ? benefit over regular metering). Electric utility pricing is regulated to be based on Return on Equity, so if they could increase their capital base through smart meter infra and cut the opex of meter readers, it economically benefits the utility, but not the consumer.
    • Panzer04 4y ago
      Does it matter? At least people are paying the right price for power, and it gives those who need it the ability to save money by shifting demand.
      • Scoundreller 4y ago
        If it costs more to precisely meter than the savings for 99% of individuals, it was a bad (forced) program to upgrade to smart meter infra - it's not free. Could have invested the money into demand reduction (free LED bulbs, insulation loans etc.) or supply improvements. Don't overspend on getting to 100% fairness. Same reason why if you ask for a meter audit, they'll do nothing if it's +/- 2%, even though anything other than 0.000000000000000000000000% error is unfair.
• jeffreygoesto 4y ago
  I don't expect zero energy costs to arrive at the consumers. Prices will artificially be inflated based on demand. The only way for consumers to profit will be to not play the game and go as much off grid as possible. But then you explicitly do not need smart meters.
  • landemva 4y ago
    Going off grid typically costs more and is often less reliable. It's not zero cost.
• zrail 4y ago
  Most residential plans in the US are either time of day rates or are a tiered flat rate.
  • thaumasiotes 4y ago
    There was an electricity provider in Texas that charged market rate plus a small markup. They were crucified when the freeze happened last year and they continued to charge market rate plus a small markup. They also went bankrupt.
    • zrail 4y ago
      Yeah, that's why I said "most". Texas is an especially weird case because of their almost total lack of regulation around pricing. From what I gather there were actually a number of power providers in Texas that charged cost plus. I don't know if any of them still exist but I'm sure there's demand for it because it's such a good deal most of the time.
      • thaumasiotes 4y ago
        So, there are two problems: 1. When the price of power went up, everyone spontaneously decided that charging the market rate for power was evil and the company deserved to be destroyed. 2. The company delivered a lot of power at high market rates because customers demanded it. But those customers then refused to pay (and in many cases weren't able to pay), which is why the company went bankrupt. It doesn't matter so much that there's demand if the government and the population all hate you and you can't collect the money you're theoretically owed.
• silvestrov 4y ago
  > residential pays a flat rate all the time Only true for some countries. Denmark has a mix of flat rate and hour-based variable rates. In my case prices are often 3 timers higher in "rush hours" (typically weekdays 5pm to 8pm, 17:00-20:00) than during a midday in a weekend with a lot of wind. I cannot choose flat-rate due to the situation in Ukraine. edit: This map is very good to see the price and source of electricity in Europe (and how well the countries are interconnected): https://app.electricitymap.org/zone/DK-DK1 https://app.electricitymap.org/zone/DK-DK1
  • rr808 4y ago
    Yes Denmark is a great example of high proportion of Wind power where it could make a big difference. I'm not sure what the hour-based variable rates are - do you know what the price is so you can change usage? Is power free or very cheap on windy days?
    • silvestrov 4y ago
      On windy days the price can go to zero, so you only pay the fixed tax. I can log into my provider at see the price for previous days and for tomorrow.
      • rr808 4y ago
        Tomorrow, that's cool. Its the whole point to be able to adjust your usage based on the market. I was thinking appliances can be smart enough to get the pricing to adjust usage, but if you can see tomorrow you can adjust your life yourself.
        • silvestrov 4y ago
          Tomorrow Wednesday we will have prices at zero some of the day: https://i.redd.it/cpmx4cvj56b91.png https://i.redd.it/cpmx4cvj56b91.png
• deleted 4y ago
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• michaelt 4y ago
  > One of the main issues is that for residential pays a flat rate all the time. One of the problems with real-time energy pricing is: poor people don’t have the cash on hand to replace their furnaces or upgrade their insulation- or worse yet rent and can’t improve energy efficiency at all. It’s difficult to raise prices enough to make it economically rational for middle class types to get batteries and heat pumps without reducing the poor to poverty.
  • seltzered_ 4y ago
    Yep, or worse the real-time energy pricing causes the highest prices during weather crises introducing ethical issues, such as during the 2021 Texas Winter Storm on customers using real-time energy pricing plans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis#Power_outages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Texas_power_crisis#Power_... Sometimes consumer smart grid gets evangelized as 'the fourth industrial revolution' - Dr. Simon Michaux argues the material blindness of it in such a way that only the rich may experience it : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0pt3ioQuNc&t=625s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0pt3ioQuNc&t=625s ( Dr. Simon Michaux: “Minerals and Materials Blindness” | The Great Simplification #19 with Nate Hagens ).
    • Scoundreller 4y ago
      You could just cap the max price and let the grid make it up during other times. That's basically what time of day billing does anyway: a blended approach to electricity rates that averages out but provides some incentive. Of course, my jurisdiction rolled out time-of-day billing and found that demand shifted only a few percent, so I wonder if the program even covered its costs for smaller users.
  • mrexroad 4y ago
    And the funded programs which offer rebates for upgrades are a pain to navigate, even if you know they exist. Even if you overcome the awareness, procedures, etc. hurdles, the financial relief (rebate) is often too delayed to affect decision making when struggling financially.
• Ekaros 4y ago
  Also depending on residential they might not care about price. Like I don't. I live in apartment. So best I can do is choose some activities. And even then I could save what couple dozen euros? Maximum of hundred? Just easier to not really have the mental load to think about it.
  • Scoundreller 4y ago
    Yeah, I lived in a rental apartment where they wanted to rebate the average electricity cost and run the metered electricity scam. But at a ~$40 rent reduction and a $13/month account fee, you'd have to reduce your electricity consumption to 33% below average just to break even. All so the installer/metering provider can buy a bigger yacht. Hard to do conserve much when the apartment operator provides your major appliances (typical in north america), no dishwasher, laundry is in a central laundry room, and HVAC+hot water are centrally provided. Would do a lot better if they just ran a program to replace all of our light bulbs/fixtures.
• Mvandenbergh 4y ago
  The GB grid has half-hourly pricing for retail customers (with a cap and floor to prevent exposure to full wholesale risk i.e. not like those Gridly clowns in Texas).