3 ms·

Lawns are less important. We would have no agricultural output if we didn’t weed.

by bergenty 4y ago

Retric 4y ago
Farming existed before weed killing. It's extremely useful but output doesn't drop to zero without it.
- whimsicalism 4y ago
  > Farming existed before weed killing Farming existed before pesticide.
  - Retric 4y ago
    Farming existed before people. Humanity has gotten very good at it and weedkilling is a big part of it. But, wild plants propagate quite well on their own, spending seeds of things you want more of results in more of that species. Preparing the environment and selecting seeds ca push that much further but the absolute minimum threshold is very low. Toss eaten apples into your yard, and eventually you get apple trees.
    - whimsicalism 4y ago
      I think your definition of farming might be a wee bit broad.
      - Retric 4y ago
        What in your mind is the clear cut separation between ants cultivating fungus, people tossing specific seeds on the ground 20,000 years ago, and whatever you think of as farming?
        whimsicalism 4y ago
        Okay I was wondering if you were going to bring ants up because I think that is a good point. > people tossing specific seeds on the ground 20,000 years ago This seems irrelevant to whether farming occurred before people. I don't think the line is very clear cut at all, but it does involve intentional intervention by a species not the plant.
        Retric 4y ago
        > > people tossing specific seeds on the ground 20,000 years ago > This seems irrelevant to whether farming occurred before people. It gets to if for example squirrels storing seeds underground is possibly farming or not. It's an intentional activity, but takes too long for a specific squirrel to see much benefit from it. IMO, it’s kind of a mind bender when you really dig into it. I think a reassemble argument is squirrels as a species farm though individuals don’t.
        whimsicalism 4y ago
        And I am to assume that these animals also do no form of weed killing? https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/32461-fungusfarming-ants-use-antibiotic-combo-to-kill-off-weeds https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/32461-fungusfarming-ants...
        Retric 4y ago
        Squirrels don’t. As to ants, do you think they evolved that trait before or after they started farming.
- parineum 4y ago
  Farming without pesticides existed before we needed to feed 9 billion people.
  - goodpoint 4y ago
    The world is vastly overproducing food and the industry is optimized for profit, not number of people being fed. Additionally, billions face food uncertainty. Not because the food is not enough.
- Supermancho 4y ago
  > Farming existed before weed killing. Weed killing has been integral to farming since it's inception.^1 Chemical herbicides were popularized in the 19th century, which necessarily coincided with the modern population explosion. ^1 https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=17593#:~:text=The%20first%20herbicides%20were%20inorganic,used%20as%20burn%2Ddown%20herbicides https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=1759....
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - Retric 4y ago
    “The earliest evidence of small-scale cultivation of edible grasses is from around 21,000 BC with the Ohalo II people on the shores of the Sea of Galilee.” “The earliest known weed control technology in 8000 BCE was the plow and hand-weeding (which includes hand-pulling, cutting with a knife, hoes and mattocks).” That's a very long gap till 8,000 BC.
    - Supermancho 4y ago
      It's implied that @21000BC, they were pulling weeds by hand. Weed killing is part of cultivation. No offense, but you seem completely out of touch with reality, on this topic. I'm not sure you can make a compelling argument without experiencing the simple world of gardening. https://imgur.com/a/Bly85h8 https://imgur.com/a/Bly85h8 - these are 2 weeds that have taken over and killed a simple flowering plant from our yard. You can see there are 2 plots that we have spliced from our healthy flowers, where we have been testing weed control methodology, since the neighbors have let these weeds become their lawn. The simple solution seems to be wait until the weed is big enough to have a solid rootball and pull it up manually. This is both the common way for small gardens to be managed AND the only solution for certain invasive species like the Himalayan blackberry which can regrow from stalks or leaves after being mulched and buried - they are resilient to pretty much every pesticide, but they aren't our problem after moving out of WA. In farmland, you can go over every inch of your acreage and try to spot treat (which won't stop proliferation) or you can uniformly treat, as modern farming currently does.

Lawns are less important. We would have no agricultural output if we didn’t weed.

Retric 4y ago

Farming existed before weed killing. It's extremely useful but output doesn't drop to zero without it.

whimsicalism 4y ago
> Farming existed before weed killing Farming existed before pesticide.
- Retric 4y ago
  Farming existed before people. Humanity has gotten very good at it and weedkilling is a big part of it. But, wild plants propagate quite well on their own, spending seeds of things you want more of results in more of that species. Preparing the environment and selecting seeds ca push that much further but the absolute minimum threshold is very low. Toss eaten apples into your yard, and eventually you get apple trees.
  - whimsicalism 4y ago
    I think your definition of farming might be a wee bit broad.
    - Retric 4y ago
      What in your mind is the clear cut separation between ants cultivating fungus, people tossing specific seeds on the ground 20,000 years ago, and whatever you think of as farming?
      - whimsicalism 4y ago
        Okay I was wondering if you were going to bring ants up because I think that is a good point. > people tossing specific seeds on the ground 20,000 years ago This seems irrelevant to whether farming occurred before people. I don't think the line is very clear cut at all, but it does involve intentional intervention by a species not the plant.
        Retric 4y ago
        > > people tossing specific seeds on the ground 20,000 years ago > This seems irrelevant to whether farming occurred before people. It gets to if for example squirrels storing seeds underground is possibly farming or not. It's an intentional activity, but takes too long for a specific squirrel to see much benefit from it. IMO, it’s kind of a mind bender when you really dig into it. I think a reassemble argument is squirrels as a species farm though individuals don’t.
        whimsicalism 4y ago
        And I am to assume that these animals also do no form of weed killing? https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/32461-fungusfarming-ants-use-antibiotic-combo-to-kill-off-weeds https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/32461-fungusfarming-ants...
        Retric 4y ago
        Squirrels don’t. As to ants, do you think they evolved that trait before or after they started farming.
parineum 4y ago
Farming without pesticides existed before we needed to feed 9 billion people.
- goodpoint 4y ago
  The world is vastly overproducing food and the industry is optimized for profit, not number of people being fed. Additionally, billions face food uncertainty. Not because the food is not enough.
Supermancho 4y ago
> Farming existed before weed killing. Weed killing has been integral to farming since it's inception.^1 Chemical herbicides were popularized in the 19th century, which necessarily coincided with the modern population explosion. ^1 https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=17593#:~:text=The%20first%20herbicides%20were%20inorganic,used%20as%20burn%2Ddown%20herbicides https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=1759....
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Retric 4y ago
  “The earliest evidence of small-scale cultivation of edible grasses is from around 21,000 BC with the Ohalo II people on the shores of the Sea of Galilee.” “The earliest known weed control technology in 8000 BCE was the plow and hand-weeding (which includes hand-pulling, cutting with a knife, hoes and mattocks).” That's a very long gap till 8,000 BC.
  - Supermancho 4y ago
    It's implied that @21000BC, they were pulling weeds by hand. Weed killing is part of cultivation. No offense, but you seem completely out of touch with reality, on this topic. I'm not sure you can make a compelling argument without experiencing the simple world of gardening. https://imgur.com/a/Bly85h8 https://imgur.com/a/Bly85h8 - these are 2 weeds that have taken over and killed a simple flowering plant from our yard. You can see there are 2 plots that we have spliced from our healthy flowers, where we have been testing weed control methodology, since the neighbors have let these weeds become their lawn. The simple solution seems to be wait until the weed is big enough to have a solid rootball and pull it up manually. This is both the common way for small gardens to be managed AND the only solution for certain invasive species like the Himalayan blackberry which can regrow from stalks or leaves after being mulched and buried - they are resilient to pretty much every pesticide, but they aren't our problem after moving out of WA. In farmland, you can go over every inch of your acreage and try to spot treat (which won't stop proliferation) or you can uniformly treat, as modern farming currently does.