11 ms·

They’re using optimistic numbers for gasoline and pessimistic numbers for electric. A gallon of gasoline emits about 11.8 kg of CO2 if you include refining. ht

They’re using optimistic numbers for gasoline and pessimistic numbers for electric. A gallon of gasoline emits about 11.8 kg of CO2 if you include refining. https://innovationorigins.com/en/producing-gasoline-and-diesel-emits-more-co2-than-we-thought/ https://innovationorigins.com/en/producing-gasoline-and-dies... One kilowatt-hour of electricity currently emits about 372grams of CO2, a number that has dropped from 500 grams in 2012. A new Chevy Malibu gets 32.5mpg combined. Hummer EV gets 47mpge combined, or about 1.394 miles per kWh. 363gCO2 per mile for the Malibu, 267gCO2/mile for the Hummer. I don’t think using hyper-specific region specific metrics makes a lot of sense considering the grid is all connected. (At least, the East Coast and Midwest, Texas doing its own thing, and then the west Coast.) in any case, the grid is getting lower emissions over time and could go MUCH lower than current (maybe half or less) over the full life of any new vehicle. Also, a Hummer EV is displacing other large vehicles. And if everybody drove subcompacts or other hyper efficient gasoline cars then we’d have less of a problem anyway. But not everyone is doing that. And a lot of people don’t want to. From a political economy standpoint then this is still a huge net win. Every new car and truck needs to at least have a plug in it within the next 5 to 10 years, and then we can start penalizing larger and heavier vehicles more directly. EDIT: what we should do is expand the EV tax credit. GM no longer qualifies as they used theirs up, like Tesla. Mostly just foreign EV makers qualify, which cannot be the real intention of lawmakers when they made the law. We can use the EV credit as a tool for improving efficiency. Instead of subsidizing per kWh of battery, we subsidize per mile of range. The first 50 miles of range (ie to be a plug in hybrid, but need at least 6.6kW charging speed) are incentivized at $100/mile of range. The next 200 miles of range $25/mile (under the condition of 100kW fast charging capability). That way car companies are incentivized (even more) to maximize miles per kWh. Small, hyper-efficient EVs will be disproportionately credited. For a given kWh of battery, you’ll make more EV credit money as a carmaker putting it in a small, very efficient car than a big Hummer. But unless we renew the EV credit (and make it per kWh), there isn’t this (additional) incentive.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
cheschire 4y ago
If you’re going to factor in the refining process for the fuel, wouldn’t it make sense to factor in the refining and manufacturing process for the battery?
- Robotbeat 4y ago
  Yes, it would, but that’s part of making the overall car and it depends on lifetime. As EV batteries can now last 500,000 miles (vs 250,000 miles for first generation long range EVs), that’s not as big of an impact as many assume. (A lot of papers assume really low EV lifetimes, like just 100,000 miles, and no secondary reuse of the battery and they assume really outdated and inefficient numbers for manufacturing the cells.)
  - Brusco_RF 4y ago
    Only tangentially related, but I wonder what the expected battery lifetime drops to when you factor in crashes. You mention that the cells might last 500,000 miles but is that really relevant if you're likely to have your car totaled before 200,000? Are there diminishing returns if you are a company working on a million mile battery since virtually no vehicles will make it that far? I am speaking as someone who has had three cars totaled before 100,000 miles (none of which were my fault!)
    - cbo100 4y ago
      I imagine most of the longevity research is actually being done for the stationary battery market. The fact it carries over to vehicles is just a bonus. Besides the salvage value of a battery pack would be huge, so I suspect a battery would be about the last piece of a car to end up on the scrap heap.
      - wumpus 4y ago
        The point is that the worst quality studies do assume that the battery ends up on the scrap heap, way before the car itself does.
      - deleted 4y ago
salty_biscuits 4y ago
Also what is the purchase price difference between the these two cars (the malibu versus the hummer)? I'm not American so not really familiar with either but from what I know I assume the average person who would but the ev wouldn't be cross shopping for the malibu. It seems like a bit of a straw man to present the figures for these two cars. It would be better to have what the average model 3 buyer would have otherwise purchased.
- TylerE 4y ago
  Wildly different. The Malibu is a cheap sedan. Base prive of the Hummer EV is 5x the Malibu ($23k vs $108k)
- Robotbeat 4y ago
  Agreed. And the Model 3 (132mpge) and Model Y (124mpge) are FAR more efficient, using less than half the electricity per mile than the Hummer EV (47mpge). The one thing about a Hummer EV with a huge battery is it can be used for work requiring towing large payloads. With large tow jobs, the thing that matters most for range is the kWhs of the battery of the vehicle, so it’s somewhat justified to have such a big and heavy vehicle.
- Tagbert 4y ago
  For Europeans, the Malibu is essentially the Opel Insignia with Chevrolet styling. It was also sold in the US as the Buick Regal with only the front Opel badge replaced by a Buick badge.
DesiLurker 4y ago
>Also, a Hummer EV is displacing other large vehicles. this is the key point, if you are going to compare compare apples to apples. I mean you can always keep making EVs bigger and thus more inefficient till you have total cost & environmental toll parity with some smaller car. Though its unlikely that somebody who was going to buy a regular hummer was going to opt for a malibu & nevermind the price. a good starting point may be comparing cars with Total cost of ownership parity & that too when both cars are past initial production ramp. my cynical brain says the truth is much simpler, fossil industry they wants a stream of these type of articles so they can keep the illusion of 'just as bad' alive for buyers on the fence. that is until then next fossil friendly administration shows.
- TaylorAlexander 4y ago
  > my cynical brain says the truth is much simpler, fossil industry they wants a stream of these type of articles so they can keep the illusion of 'just as bad' alive for buyers on the fence. Yes that seems to be the takeaway from Transport Evolved on another recent “study” that compared EVs to ICE cars on tire particulate emissions. https://youtu.be/aar8njoGgNY https://youtu.be/aar8njoGgNY
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- elcritch 4y ago
  Talking of making larger and large EV's, but I've thought for a while that electric RVs would be great. Though I imagine that the Tesla one would(will?) be 500k minimum. But you'd get a huge electric battery for boon-docking it, running AC, etc and you get a large surface for solar panels. You might even be able to have enough solar to be able drive for a day to a new local, and then park for a few days to recharge and then drive again. ;) I bet they'd sell pretty well and still be better environmentally than the RV's that get 5mpg.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    RV parks are also great places to find level 2 chargers even for non-RV EVs. If you are driving up to Alaska, most of the trip they are basically your only option right now.
ransom1538 4y ago
Are we allowed to call these "coal vehicles" yet? They don't make nuclear power plants anymore - so not sure why everyone wants to run more coal plants.
- corrral 4y ago
  > Are we allowed to call these "coal vehicles" yet? Of course you are! And we're allowed to think what we will of you, should you choose to do that.
- mpyne 4y ago
  They do make wind and solar plants though. And either way, even with coal feeding a thermal plant as the energy source, it is still more efficient to generate the energy and distribute it to the wheel than it is to refine, transport and burn the fossil fuel the ICE vehicle would use.
- kcplate 4y ago
  In many places in the US it’s an accurate description for sure, but your getting down voted here because it’s an inconvenient truth. I gave you an upvote, because I appreciate the irony. Where I live it’s an 85% coal, 15% solar vehicle.
  - Robotbeat 4y ago
    The US average is about 21% electricity from coal, a number that's down from over 50% about 20 years ago. And coal is falling over time as well. It's not an "inconvenient truth", it's outdated information, basically a lie at this point. No one's bothering building new coal plants any more. People ARE building new nuclear plants (Vogtle, etc, not counting the small modular reactors). Nuclear produces about 18-19% of US electricity, nearly as much as coal. Solar is about 4-5% of US electricity (including solar behind-the-meter), hydro is 6-7%. Wind is 10%, geothermal about 0.4%. Wood and biomass waste (including landfill gas, etc) is about 1.3% total. Total renewables and nuclear produce over 40% of US electricity, twice that of coal. Source: https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_1_01 https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... and https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=table_1_01_a https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph...
dieselgate 4y ago
Interesting comment that inspired me to look into the grams of carbon dioxide emitted when running biodiesel fuel: This page [1] says biodiesel emits 2,661 grams of carbon dioxide per gallon. Let’s say a 1988 F250 gets 15 mpg => 2,661 g/gal * 1/15 gal/mile = 177.4 gram CO2/mile. Pretty cool it’s less than both the Chevy Malibu and Hummer but wonder how it compares to other petrol cars - it is just proportional to fuel economy but im not gonna run the numbers. In my head a pure gasser car would need to get above about 40mpg of petroleum fuel to emit less grams of CO2 than a 15mpg vehicle running pure biodiesel. TLDR biodiesel is what’s up if you can’t afford an ev (and still has its place if you can). Pure petroleum diesel still barely emits more co2 than gasoline anyway [2] Disclaimer: only comparing carbon dioxide and not other greenhouse gas emissions Edit: i'm seeing some numbers around that the average human exhalation per day is emits 1 kg of CO2, for reference. [3] [1]: https://impactful.ninja/the-carbon-footprint-of-biodiesel/ https://impactful.ninja/the-carbon-footprint-of-biodiesel/ [2]: https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/Gas%20_v%20_Diesel_%20CO2_emissions_%20EN_%20Fact%20_Sheet%202019_05_07_0.pdf https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/Gas%20_v%20_Diesel_%... [3]: https://www.sciencefocus.com/planet-earth/how-much-does-human-breathing-contribute-to-climate-change/ https://www.sciencefocus.com/planet-earth/how-much-does-huma...
- ascar 4y ago
  The thing with human exhalation is that this CO2 comes from the food we consume and gets captured again when food is produced thus having netzero influence on the actual CO2 in the atmosphere. Same basically applies to biodiesel. Of course that ignores energy spent to produce crops and other issues like fertilizer. The problem is the fossil fuel that is concentrated carbon from millions of years of plants and now just adds to the CO2 in the atmosphere without a corresponding mechanism to take it out again. If we create gasoline by capturing CO2 from the atmosphere there isn't a CO2 problem with using it for fuel. Processes exist, but all have some (major) inefficiency issues.
- Tagbert 4y ago
  Biodiesel is interesting but if you end up using palm nuts as the oil source and the producers are clear cutting forests to plan palms then the climate story gets muddy.
bee_rider 4y ago
And hypothetically the Hummer EV could go down to 0 kg, if the grid was entirely renewable. Clearly this won't happen, but that should be the goal.
- tiernano 4y ago
  My electric provider in ireland say the power we get is 100% renewable. It can even depend on provider...
- rektide 4y ago
  Dont forget that there's a lot of embodied energy in everything too. Even renewable capacity creates CO2 when it's made. So does the grid. So does maintaining these things. And so does drilling for oil, & shipping it around the world, processing it, and shipping it again.
RC_ITR 4y ago
>in any case, the grid is getting lower emissions over time and could go MUCH lower than current This is a key point so many people miss. Perfect World: We reduce our emissions. Good World: We transition our infrastructure to things that can be decarbonized in the future. That Hummer EV could theoretically run on completely renewable energy (once other changes are made) the Malibu will never.
bombcar 4y ago
If the stupid EV credit was refundable I'd have taken it into account when looking for a new vehicle; as it is it's pointless to me because my tax liability isn't high enough. Stupid.
- sokoloff 4y ago
  The typical workaround (and it's not ideal, but it's not zero either) is to lease the car, where the finance company can take the credit and return most of it to you in the form of cap cost reduction on the front end of the lease. (Yeah, yeah, it's not as good as money in your pocket, but it's better than a stick in the eye.)
JKCalhoun 4y ago
>Also, a Hummer EV is displacing other large vehicles. We can agree on that. But also, a 7000 lb Hummer would as well.
0xbadcafebee 4y ago
> One kilowatt-hour of electricity currently emits about 372grams of CO2 Not if it's coal. 1 kWh from a coal power plant generates 820-940 grams of CO2 (down from 1130g [5]) The EV Hummer actually gets ~631g CO2/mile - nearly twice that of the Malibu - if your electricity comes from a coal plant. 60% of the USA's power comes from coal, oil and gas. [6] In many parts of the country, going to EV does not substantially reduce CO2 emissions nor save money. We have a very long way to go until we can say that EV is always better for the environment than ICE. CO2 emissions from energy generation are now higher than they've ever been in history. More coal is being burned lately due to higher natural gas prices. And as emerging markets have more need for electricity, they are ramping up more non-renewable power production facilities, because gas, oil and coal are cheaper/easier/more available. [1] [2] (aside: the EIA considers electricity generation "from biomass [..] to be carbon neutral" [3], which is bonkers. Biomass co-firing generates 740g CO2, non-cofiring 240g [4]) [1] https://ourworldindata.org/emissions-by-fuel https://ourworldindata.org/emissions-by-fuel [2] https://newatlas.com/environment/energy-related-co2-emissions-record-high-coal/ https://newatlas.com/environment/energy-related-co2-emission... [3] https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11 [4] https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/energy-and-the-environment/carbon-dioxide-emissions-from-electricity.aspx https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/energy-and... [5] https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/average-co2-intensity-of-power-generation-from-coal-power-plants-2000-2020 https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/average-co2-i... [6] https://app.electricitymap.org/map https://app.electricitymap.org/map
- Robotbeat 4y ago
  Only about 21% of US electricity comes from coal right now, and the number is falling over time. Efficient natural gas plants can actually do pretty well, about the same as the 372g/kWh grid average. Almost no oil (or petro coke, etc) is burned for electricity. I think less than a tenth of the amount of electricity from solar (solar is currently somewhere around 5% to about 4.2%, depending on how you count "now", i.e. annualized amount based on the last month of data in April with seasonal effects taken out... or the more conservative 12 months rolling average).
- svnt 4y ago
aporetics 4y ago
Isn’t the real comparison the CO2/mile of the electric Hummer versus the CO2/mile of a Malibu-weight electric vehicle?
- hedora 4y ago
  It's better to use mi/kWh. Hummers get 1.3. Small EVs are well above 4. Edit: fixed units
phpisthebest 4y ago
>>EDIT: what we should do is expand the EV tax credit No we don't, that will increase inflation is basically a tax on poor people to pay for rich people to buy new vehicle The EV Tax credit needs to do away completely, EV can either compete with ICE in the market or they cant, government should not be picking winners or losers. >>Also, a Hummer EV is displacing other large vehicles. Not until batter tech improves, I am interested in an EV truck, none of them have the towing range that makes them practical for a weekend trip to the dock with your boat, or a camping trip. One of the Youtube channels I watch just did a head to head with a ICE truck against the Ford Lightening, they did not get 80 miles with the truck before they ran out of charge pulling a normal sized trailer, that is with the Truck claiming a 150 or so mile range at the start of the trip. TERRIBLE towing miles. Current batteries may be good for a car like the Model 3 and Model S, or the Mach E, but it is TERRIBLE for large SUV's or Trucks that are made for towing
- mixmastamyk 4y ago
  So don't use them for towing, or wait 5-9 years. Towing is not not done by a huge fraction of trucks, in fact most are probably looking pretty in suburban driveways.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    While most trucks are not used for towing daily, many truck owner have them for vacations, and other rec uses on top of daily driving, this saves having to have 2 vehicles (or 3) So even if the Truck is only used for towing 2 times a year, you will never get most truck owners to buy one with a 80mile towing range
    - switchbak 4y ago
      Shoot, if that's true I'd rather just rent a truck twice a year and own a vehicle that suits my needs better for the other 363 days of the year.
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
atomicnumber3 4y ago
Also worth noting that as the grid goes green, so do all EVs. Not so for combustion engines, unless we somehow switch to synthesizing hydrocarbon fuel from non-sequestered carbon sources. (Which tbh I think will happen more as we near 100% green energy - you'll still end up with special cases where the energy density and portability benefits of storing energy as bonds in hydrocarbons still makes sense and justifies paying a higher cost for such synthetic fuel!) But with how everything is going with solar, batteries, and nuclear, I suspect that the invisible hand of the free market is going to make the default "I want to make 1-7 people go about 70mph for 0-4 hours" vehicle be an EV, rather than doing complicated and expensive chemistry to make renewable hydrocarbons.
- solardev 4y ago
  The grid is nowhere near green and won't be for a long time. Probably not even before the EOL of the existing EVs on the road.
  - abenga 4y ago
    The grid doesn't have to be 100% green for it to be better than everyone burning gas in their cars. An electric car becomes greener as the grid becomes greener, a gas car is just as dirty today as it was last year.
    - solardev 4y ago
      I fact-checked this and it turns out I was completely wrong, and I'm sorry. Even with the current grid mix, a typical all-electric car will on average be greener than a gasoline car after about 15,000 miles. Even if you're in a place where 100% of your electricity comes from coal, the electric would still beat out the gas car after 89,000 miles. So, it is like you said: It is already cleaner, and will get even cleaner as the grid improves. Thank you for the heads-up! I stand corrected :) ----- Sources... Breakeven points: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/lifetime-carbon-emissions-electric-vehicles-vs-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/?taid=60dadff1fdc7d30001f53a35 https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/lifeti... State-by-comparisons between electric, hybrid, and gas: https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html
woevdbz 4y ago
> We can use the EV credit as a tool for improving efficiency. Instead of subsidizing per kWh of battery, we subsidize per mile of range. The first 50 miles of range (ie to be a plug in hybrid, but need at least 6.6kW charging speed) are incentivized at $100/mile of range. The next 200 miles of range $25/mile (under the condition of 100kW fast charging capability). > That way car companies are incentivized (even more) to maximize miles per kWh. As long as battery charging times are so slow, IMO car companies already have a ton of incentive to make their EVs efficient, as range is a big differentiator and batteries are such a large cost component. I suspect there isn't a lot more efficiency that would be gotten out of a change to incentive structure. > Also, a Hummer EV is displacing other large vehicles. And if everybody drove subcompacts or other hyper efficient gasoline cars then we’d have less of a problem anyway. But not everyone is doing that. And a lot of people don’t want to. This is a big source of waste and inefficiency though. People just needing to commute by themselves from A to B and buying pickup trucks or large sedans with poor efficiency, then whining whenever energy costs shoot up. As a taxpayer, I would much rather if my taxes subsidized programs that encouraged people to be more frugal with their vehicle type choices.
- Robotbeat 4y ago
  Well my personal opinion is these larger vehicles should require a special license to drive. And once we kill gasoline and diesel on our roads, we should tax based on 1) wear and tear on the roads and 2) risk to pedestrians and other vehicles. Weight is an okay stand-in for that metric, but isn't perfect (there are ways to distribute load on the road using the wheels that reduce wear, and there are design features like a low hood or even external airbags that could be used to reduce fatalities to pedestrians and other vehicles). But we shouldn't go there until we've all but eliminated fossil fuels from our roads.
- frumper 4y ago
  You’ll be glad the biggest single consumer tax credit won’t go to buyers of the Hummer then. GM vehicles aren’t eligible for the federal tax rebate anymore
marricks 4y ago
> Also, a Hummer EV is displacing other large vehicles. Is it? Not all hummer drivers are Arnold Swartz. what if the main buyers are just folks who want the largest electric cars? It's possible this mainly cannibalizes Tesla Model X sales more than gas Hummers. I haven't seen studies for who buys what but until there is we're all just making wild assumptions about consumer demand. For the record, I'm not saying this is awful or hurts more than it helps. My main point is brands offer more EV options shouldn't defacto be applauded.
wronglyprepaid 4y ago
> Mostly just foreign EV makers qualify, which cannot be the real intention of lawmakers when they made the law. Of course it is because the capitalist state prioritizes shareholders over stakeholders.
lostlogin 4y ago
Is that equation complete though? The cost of making and disposing of the vehicle should be included, as making batteries and recycling the batteries is supposedly quite energy intensive. However electric motors are simpler, have less parts and require less maintenance. I have no idea where this leaves us.
- hulitu 4y ago
  Disposing ? They just trow it in the ocean like they do with plastic.
Gordonjcp 4y ago
> A gallon of gasoline emits about 11.8 kg of CO2 if you include refining. A gallon of propane emits about 0kg of additional CO2, if you consider that it's just going to get flared off as waste gas anyway, and we need to refine lots of oil to make the plastics to make electric cars. Why are you still wasting time running things on petrol when propane is better in just about every way?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

cheschire 4y ago

If you’re going to factor in the refining process for the fuel, wouldn’t it make sense to factor in the refining and manufacturing process for the battery?

Robotbeat 4y ago
Yes, it would, but that’s part of making the overall car and it depends on lifetime. As EV batteries can now last 500,000 miles (vs 250,000 miles for first generation long range EVs), that’s not as big of an impact as many assume. (A lot of papers assume really low EV lifetimes, like just 100,000 miles, and no secondary reuse of the battery and they assume really outdated and inefficient numbers for manufacturing the cells.)
- Brusco_RF 4y ago
  Only tangentially related, but I wonder what the expected battery lifetime drops to when you factor in crashes. You mention that the cells might last 500,000 miles but is that really relevant if you're likely to have your car totaled before 200,000? Are there diminishing returns if you are a company working on a million mile battery since virtually no vehicles will make it that far? I am speaking as someone who has had three cars totaled before 100,000 miles (none of which were my fault!)
  - cbo100 4y ago
    I imagine most of the longevity research is actually being done for the stationary battery market. The fact it carries over to vehicles is just a bonus. Besides the salvage value of a battery pack would be huge, so I suspect a battery would be about the last piece of a car to end up on the scrap heap.
    - wumpus 4y ago
      The point is that the worst quality studies do assume that the battery ends up on the scrap heap, way before the car itself does.
    - deleted 4y ago

salty_biscuits 4y ago

Also what is the purchase price difference between the these two cars (the malibu versus the hummer)? I'm not American so not really familiar with either but from what I know I assume the average person who would but the ev wouldn't be cross shopping for the malibu. It seems like a bit of a straw man to present the figures for these two cars. It would be better to have what the average model 3 buyer would have otherwise purchased.

TylerE 4y ago
Wildly different. The Malibu is a cheap sedan. Base prive of the Hummer EV is 5x the Malibu ($23k vs $108k)
Robotbeat 4y ago
Agreed. And the Model 3 (132mpge) and Model Y (124mpge) are FAR more efficient, using less than half the electricity per mile than the Hummer EV (47mpge). The one thing about a Hummer EV with a huge battery is it can be used for work requiring towing large payloads. With large tow jobs, the thing that matters most for range is the kWhs of the battery of the vehicle, so it’s somewhat justified to have such a big and heavy vehicle.
Tagbert 4y ago
For Europeans, the Malibu is essentially the Opel Insignia with Chevrolet styling. It was also sold in the US as the Buick Regal with only the front Opel badge replaced by a Buick badge.

DesiLurker 4y ago

>Also, a Hummer EV is displacing other large vehicles. this is the key point, if you are going to compare compare apples to apples. I mean you can always keep making EVs bigger and thus more inefficient till you have total cost & environmental toll parity with some smaller car. Though its unlikely that somebody who was going to buy a regular hummer was going to opt for a malibu & nevermind the price. a good starting point may be comparing cars with Total cost of ownership parity & that too when both cars are past initial production ramp. my cynical brain says the truth is much simpler, fossil industry they wants a stream of these type of articles so they can keep the illusion of 'just as bad' alive for buyers on the fence. that is until then next fossil friendly administration shows.

TaylorAlexander 4y ago
> my cynical brain says the truth is much simpler, fossil industry they wants a stream of these type of articles so they can keep the illusion of 'just as bad' alive for buyers on the fence. Yes that seems to be the takeaway from Transport Evolved on another recent “study” that compared EVs to ICE cars on tire particulate emissions. https://youtu.be/aar8njoGgNY https://youtu.be/aar8njoGgNY
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
elcritch 4y ago
Talking of making larger and large EV's, but I've thought for a while that electric RVs would be great. Though I imagine that the Tesla one would(will?) be 500k minimum. But you'd get a huge electric battery for boon-docking it, running AC, etc and you get a large surface for solar panels. You might even be able to have enough solar to be able drive for a day to a new local, and then park for a few days to recharge and then drive again. ;) I bet they'd sell pretty well and still be better environmentally than the RV's that get 5mpg.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  RV parks are also great places to find level 2 chargers even for non-RV EVs. If you are driving up to Alaska, most of the trip they are basically your only option right now.

ransom1538 4y ago

Are we allowed to call these "coal vehicles" yet? They don't make nuclear power plants anymore - so not sure why everyone wants to run more coal plants.

corrral 4y ago
> Are we allowed to call these "coal vehicles" yet? Of course you are! And we're allowed to think what we will of you, should you choose to do that.
mpyne 4y ago
They do make wind and solar plants though. And either way, even with coal feeding a thermal plant as the energy source, it is still more efficient to generate the energy and distribute it to the wheel than it is to refine, transport and burn the fossil fuel the ICE vehicle would use.
kcplate 4y ago
In many places in the US it’s an accurate description for sure, but your getting down voted here because it’s an inconvenient truth. I gave you an upvote, because I appreciate the irony. Where I live it’s an 85% coal, 15% solar vehicle.
- Robotbeat 4y ago
  The US average is about 21% electricity from coal, a number that's down from over 50% about 20 years ago. And coal is falling over time as well. It's not an "inconvenient truth", it's outdated information, basically a lie at this point. No one's bothering building new coal plants any more. People ARE building new nuclear plants (Vogtle, etc, not counting the small modular reactors). Nuclear produces about 18-19% of US electricity, nearly as much as coal. Solar is about 4-5% of US electricity (including solar behind-the-meter), hydro is 6-7%. Wind is 10%, geothermal about 0.4%. Wood and biomass waste (including landfill gas, etc) is about 1.3% total. Total renewables and nuclear produce over 40% of US electricity, twice that of coal. Source: https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_1_01 https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph... and https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=table_1_01_a https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.ph...

dieselgate 4y ago

Interesting comment that inspired me to look into the grams of carbon dioxide emitted when running biodiesel fuel: This page [1] says biodiesel emits 2,661 grams of carbon dioxide per gallon. Let’s say a 1988 F250 gets 15 mpg => 2,661 g/gal * 1/15 gal/mile = 177.4 gram CO2/mile. Pretty cool it’s less than both the Chevy Malibu and Hummer but wonder how it compares to other petrol cars - it is just proportional to fuel economy but im not gonna run the numbers. In my head a pure gasser car would need to get above about 40mpg of petroleum fuel to emit less grams of CO2 than a 15mpg vehicle running pure biodiesel. TLDR biodiesel is what’s up if you can’t afford an ev (and still has its place if you can). Pure petroleum diesel still barely emits more co2 than gasoline anyway [2] Disclaimer: only comparing carbon dioxide and not other greenhouse gas emissions Edit: i'm seeing some numbers around that the average human exhalation per day is emits 1 kg of CO2, for reference. [3] [1]: https://impactful.ninja/the-carbon-footprint-of-biodiesel/ https://impactful.ninja/the-carbon-footprint-of-biodiesel/ [2]: https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/Gas%20_v%20_Diesel_%20CO2_emissions_%20EN_%20Fact%20_Sheet%202019_05_07_0.pdf https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/Gas%20_v%20_Diesel_%... [3]: https://www.sciencefocus.com/planet-earth/how-much-does-human-breathing-contribute-to-climate-change/ https://www.sciencefocus.com/planet-earth/how-much-does-huma...

ascar 4y ago
The thing with human exhalation is that this CO2 comes from the food we consume and gets captured again when food is produced thus having netzero influence on the actual CO2 in the atmosphere. Same basically applies to biodiesel. Of course that ignores energy spent to produce crops and other issues like fertilizer. The problem is the fossil fuel that is concentrated carbon from millions of years of plants and now just adds to the CO2 in the atmosphere without a corresponding mechanism to take it out again. If we create gasoline by capturing CO2 from the atmosphere there isn't a CO2 problem with using it for fuel. Processes exist, but all have some (major) inefficiency issues.
Tagbert 4y ago
Biodiesel is interesting but if you end up using palm nuts as the oil source and the producers are clear cutting forests to plan palms then the climate story gets muddy.

bee_rider 4y ago

And hypothetically the Hummer EV could go down to 0 kg, if the grid was entirely renewable. Clearly this won't happen, but that should be the goal.

tiernano 4y ago
My electric provider in ireland say the power we get is 100% renewable. It can even depend on provider...
rektide 4y ago
Dont forget that there's a lot of embodied energy in everything too. Even renewable capacity creates CO2 when it's made. So does the grid. So does maintaining these things. And so does drilling for oil, & shipping it around the world, processing it, and shipping it again.

RC_ITR 4y ago

>in any case, the grid is getting lower emissions over time and could go MUCH lower than current This is a key point so many people miss. Perfect World: We reduce our emissions. Good World: We transition our infrastructure to things that can be decarbonized in the future. That Hummer EV could theoretically run on completely renewable energy (once other changes are made) the Malibu will never.

bombcar 4y ago

If the stupid EV credit was refundable I'd have taken it into account when looking for a new vehicle; as it is it's pointless to me because my tax liability isn't high enough. Stupid.

sokoloff 4y ago
The typical workaround (and it's not ideal, but it's not zero either) is to lease the car, where the finance company can take the credit and return most of it to you in the form of cap cost reduction on the front end of the lease. (Yeah, yeah, it's not as good as money in your pocket, but it's better than a stick in the eye.)

JKCalhoun 4y ago

>Also, a Hummer EV is displacing other large vehicles. We can agree on that. But also, a 7000 lb Hummer would as well.

0xbadcafebee 4y ago

> One kilowatt-hour of electricity currently emits about 372grams of CO2 Not if it's coal. 1 kWh from a coal power plant generates 820-940 grams of CO2 (down from 1130g [5]) The EV Hummer actually gets ~631g CO2/mile - nearly twice that of the Malibu - if your electricity comes from a coal plant. 60% of the USA's power comes from coal, oil and gas. [6] In many parts of the country, going to EV does not substantially reduce CO2 emissions nor save money. We have a very long way to go until we can say that EV is always better for the environment than ICE. CO2 emissions from energy generation are now higher than they've ever been in history. More coal is being burned lately due to higher natural gas prices. And as emerging markets have more need for electricity, they are ramping up more non-renewable power production facilities, because gas, oil and coal are cheaper/easier/more available. [1] [2] (aside: the EIA considers electricity generation "from biomass [..] to be carbon neutral" [3], which is bonkers. Biomass co-firing generates 740g CO2, non-cofiring 240g [4]) [1] https://ourworldindata.org/emissions-by-fuel https://ourworldindata.org/emissions-by-fuel [2] https://newatlas.com/environment/energy-related-co2-emissions-record-high-coal/ https://newatlas.com/environment/energy-related-co2-emission... [3] https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11 https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=74&t=11 [4] https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/energy-and-the-environment/carbon-dioxide-emissions-from-electricity.aspx https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/energy-and... [5] https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/average-co2-intensity-of-power-generation-from-coal-power-plants-2000-2020 https://www.iea.org/data-and-statistics/charts/average-co2-i... [6] https://app.electricitymap.org/map https://app.electricitymap.org/map

Robotbeat 4y ago
Only about 21% of US electricity comes from coal right now, and the number is falling over time. Efficient natural gas plants can actually do pretty well, about the same as the 372g/kWh grid average. Almost no oil (or petro coke, etc) is burned for electricity. I think less than a tenth of the amount of electricity from solar (solar is currently somewhere around 5% to about 4.2%, depending on how you count "now", i.e. annualized amount based on the last month of data in April with seasonal effects taken out... or the more conservative 12 months rolling average).
svnt 4y ago

aporetics 4y ago

Isn’t the real comparison the CO2/mile of the electric Hummer versus the CO2/mile of a Malibu-weight electric vehicle?

hedora 4y ago
It's better to use mi/kWh. Hummers get 1.3. Small EVs are well above 4. Edit: fixed units

phpisthebest 4y ago

>>EDIT: what we should do is expand the EV tax credit No we don't, that will increase inflation is basically a tax on poor people to pay for rich people to buy new vehicle The EV Tax credit needs to do away completely, EV can either compete with ICE in the market or they cant, government should not be picking winners or losers. >>Also, a Hummer EV is displacing other large vehicles. Not until batter tech improves, I am interested in an EV truck, none of them have the towing range that makes them practical for a weekend trip to the dock with your boat, or a camping trip. One of the Youtube channels I watch just did a head to head with a ICE truck against the Ford Lightening, they did not get 80 miles with the truck before they ran out of charge pulling a normal sized trailer, that is with the Truck claiming a 150 or so mile range at the start of the trip. TERRIBLE towing miles. Current batteries may be good for a car like the Model 3 and Model S, or the Mach E, but it is TERRIBLE for large SUV's or Trucks that are made for towing

mixmastamyk 4y ago
So don't use them for towing, or wait 5-9 years. Towing is not not done by a huge fraction of trucks, in fact most are probably looking pretty in suburban driveways.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  While most trucks are not used for towing daily, many truck owner have them for vacations, and other rec uses on top of daily driving, this saves having to have 2 vehicles (or 3) So even if the Truck is only used for towing 2 times a year, you will never get most truck owners to buy one with a 80mile towing range
  - switchbak 4y ago
    Shoot, if that's true I'd rather just rent a truck twice a year and own a vehicle that suits my needs better for the other 363 days of the year.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago

atomicnumber3 4y ago

Also worth noting that as the grid goes green, so do all EVs. Not so for combustion engines, unless we somehow switch to synthesizing hydrocarbon fuel from non-sequestered carbon sources. (Which tbh I think will happen more as we near 100% green energy - you'll still end up with special cases where the energy density and portability benefits of storing energy as bonds in hydrocarbons still makes sense and justifies paying a higher cost for such synthetic fuel!) But with how everything is going with solar, batteries, and nuclear, I suspect that the invisible hand of the free market is going to make the default "I want to make 1-7 people go about 70mph for 0-4 hours" vehicle be an EV, rather than doing complicated and expensive chemistry to make renewable hydrocarbons.

solardev 4y ago
The grid is nowhere near green and won't be for a long time. Probably not even before the EOL of the existing EVs on the road.
- abenga 4y ago
  The grid doesn't have to be 100% green for it to be better than everyone burning gas in their cars. An electric car becomes greener as the grid becomes greener, a gas car is just as dirty today as it was last year.
  - solardev 4y ago
    I fact-checked this and it turns out I was completely wrong, and I'm sorry. Even with the current grid mix, a typical all-electric car will on average be greener than a gasoline car after about 15,000 miles. Even if you're in a place where 100% of your electricity comes from coal, the electric would still beat out the gas car after 89,000 miles. So, it is like you said: It is already cleaner, and will get even cleaner as the grid improves. Thank you for the heads-up! I stand corrected :) ----- Sources... Breakeven points: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/lifetime-carbon-emissions-electric-vehicles-vs-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/?taid=60dadff1fdc7d30001f53a35 https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/lifeti... State-by-comparisons between electric, hybrid, and gas: https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html

woevdbz 4y ago

> We can use the EV credit as a tool for improving efficiency. Instead of subsidizing per kWh of battery, we subsidize per mile of range. The first 50 miles of range (ie to be a plug in hybrid, but need at least 6.6kW charging speed) are incentivized at $100/mile of range. The next 200 miles of range $25/mile (under the condition of 100kW fast charging capability). > That way car companies are incentivized (even more) to maximize miles per kWh. As long as battery charging times are so slow, IMO car companies already have a ton of incentive to make their EVs efficient, as range is a big differentiator and batteries are such a large cost component. I suspect there isn't a lot more efficiency that would be gotten out of a change to incentive structure. > Also, a Hummer EV is displacing other large vehicles. And if everybody drove subcompacts or other hyper efficient gasoline cars then we’d have less of a problem anyway. But not everyone is doing that. And a lot of people don’t want to. This is a big source of waste and inefficiency though. People just needing to commute by themselves from A to B and buying pickup trucks or large sedans with poor efficiency, then whining whenever energy costs shoot up. As a taxpayer, I would much rather if my taxes subsidized programs that encouraged people to be more frugal with their vehicle type choices.

Robotbeat 4y ago
Well my personal opinion is these larger vehicles should require a special license to drive. And once we kill gasoline and diesel on our roads, we should tax based on 1) wear and tear on the roads and 2) risk to pedestrians and other vehicles. Weight is an okay stand-in for that metric, but isn't perfect (there are ways to distribute load on the road using the wheels that reduce wear, and there are design features like a low hood or even external airbags that could be used to reduce fatalities to pedestrians and other vehicles). But we shouldn't go there until we've all but eliminated fossil fuels from our roads.
frumper 4y ago
You’ll be glad the biggest single consumer tax credit won’t go to buyers of the Hummer then. GM vehicles aren’t eligible for the federal tax rebate anymore

marricks 4y ago

> Also, a Hummer EV is displacing other large vehicles. Is it? Not all hummer drivers are Arnold Swartz. what if the main buyers are just folks who want the largest electric cars? It's possible this mainly cannibalizes Tesla Model X sales more than gas Hummers. I haven't seen studies for who buys what but until there is we're all just making wild assumptions about consumer demand. For the record, I'm not saying this is awful or hurts more than it helps. My main point is brands offer more EV options shouldn't defacto be applauded.

wronglyprepaid 4y ago

> Mostly just foreign EV makers qualify, which cannot be the real intention of lawmakers when they made the law. Of course it is because the capitalist state prioritizes shareholders over stakeholders.

lostlogin 4y ago

Is that equation complete though? The cost of making and disposing of the vehicle should be included, as making batteries and recycling the batteries is supposedly quite energy intensive. However electric motors are simpler, have less parts and require less maintenance. I have no idea where this leaves us.

hulitu 4y ago
Disposing ? They just trow it in the ocean like they do with plastic.

Gordonjcp 4y ago

> A gallon of gasoline emits about 11.8 kg of CO2 if you include refining. A gallon of propane emits about 0kg of additional CO2, if you consider that it's just going to get flared off as waste gas anyway, and we need to refine lots of oil to make the plastics to make electric cars. Why are you still wasting time running things on petrol when propane is better in just about every way?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]