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"$5,000/mo with a one-time hardware cost of $10,000 for two high performance terminals." wow! Why cant you just take your normal starlink with you on your boat

"$5,000/mo with a one-time hardware cost of $10,000 for two high performance terminals." wow! Why cant you just take your normal starlink with you on your boat? Don't people do that with RVs?

pigtailgirl 4y ago
https://www.starlink.com/rv https://www.starlink.com/rv -- If I had to guess part of the reason would maybe be carrying capacity - a house that doesn't move is predictable - RVs & boats move so the per satellite bandwidth predictability of that class of object is lower - i think meaning the requirements for redundancy are higher - redundancy is expensive? - just a guess --
- cronix 4y ago
  Starlink RV is only currently meant to be used while stationary and can't track while in motion, which is why the hardware is identical to the home unit. They're supposed to be coming out with new hardware that allows use while in motion. It was only a week ago that the FCC approved the application for "vehicles in motion."[1] It will be on airplanes as well, soon. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/30/fcc-approves-spacex-starlink-service-to-vehicles-boats-planes.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/30/fcc-approves-spacex-starlink...
  - vl 4y ago
    What I really want is hardware that is mounted on RV roof and can be deployed and folded with a press of a button. While I don't care if it works in motion, I do care about setup convenience, and I'm not getting current version because setting it up is just too cumbersome. Or even better: just flat beam-forming antenna on the RV roof. Once thing there is enough on the roof is space.
    - jonah 4y ago
      Ehh, we just got an RV unit for Search and Rescue use in remote areas[0]. Setup is about three steps and just a couple minutes. Waiting 5-15 minutes for it to connect to the constellation takes longer. [0] https://www.instagram.com/p/CfUUWVfJKo1/ https://www.instagram.com/p/CfUUWVfJKo1/
      - vl 4y ago
        When you setup RV, you already have to do a lot. Every extra thing counts. On top of that you can’t really leave this unit deployed and leave - the risk of it being stolen is relatively high.
    - jpgvm 4y ago
      Yeah would be possible with a larger antenna that has a wider FOV. The current dish has too narrow a FOV to simply recess it into the roof/enclosure unfortunately.
plasticchris 4y ago
Would only work near shore, this must mean they have some capability to go beyond the one hop to a station. Edit: from the coverage map it looks like this is only coastal waters…
- adingus 4y ago
  Interesting. I didn't know that coverage was limited. I assumed satellite == pretty much all of earth.
  - plasticchris 4y ago
    It will once they get the laser terminals up and running so the sats can talk to each other
  - xxpor 4y ago
    They can't do satellite to satellite yet. Just terminal -> sat -> ground station. Starlink is in low earth orbit, so the visibility any one satellite has is (relatively speaking) pretty limited.
  - ortusdux 4y ago
    The majority of their satellites just bounce the signals back down to a nearby ground station. Their version 1.5 sats, which they started launching about a year ago, include laser links to allow sat->sat communication. Their plan is for the remaining 3/4th of their fleet to have laser links. One interesting side-effect of the laser links is that they can open up connections between stock exchanges and trading houses that are faster than direct fiberoptic lines. Milliseconds count in high frequency trading.
    - foobiekr 4y ago
      Predictability and stability count a lot as well. I think the starlink-as-low-latency-trading-medium is sort of like "blockchain for real estate" - it's not actually a real thing.
gvb 4y ago
"Starlink for RVs is not designed for use while in motion." Marine starlink needs to compensate for rolling, pitching, and forward motion.
- cronix 4y ago
  Sounds like they added a gimbal or something?
  - dicknuckle 4y ago
    These are common on radar systems, and nothing to sneeze at.
  - gvb 4y ago
    The antenna is electronically steered. The pictures do not show any gimbal but they probably had to add an IMU to measure the motion of the boat (antenna) and adjust the antenna beam steering to compensate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_measurement_unit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_measurement_unit
    - bri3d 4y ago
      The Starlink Dishy already has an IMU in it. It does look like maybe the beam array is simply bigger.
  - deelowe 4y ago
    Starlink uses beam forming. It shouldn't need a gimbal.
    - Nextgrid 4y ago
      The phased array can probably only do so much and a gimbal might still be needed to compensate for movement outside of what the phased array can handle?
      - deelowe 4y ago
roflyear 4y ago
Look at the coverage map: https://api.starlink.com/public-files/maritime-coverage-map.pdf https://api.starlink.com/public-files/maritime-coverage-map.... What a fucking joke. "coming soon" means nothing to me coming from a Musk company. Compare to the iridum network: https://www.groundcontrol.com/us/knowledge/calculators-and-maps/iridium-coverage-map-real-time-tracking/ https://www.groundcontrol.com/us/knowledge/calculators-and-m... Granted, iridium is much slower. But $5k a month for barely any coverage is an insult.
- extheat 4y ago
  Do you think running Starlink is cheap? Something seems to have struck a nerve.
  - dieselgate 4y ago
    It’s only five boat units a month and ten boat units for setup. It’s no where near worth it for me because normal phone/wireless data works well where I sail (in addition to iridium network fwiw) - the prices would need to be at least an order (orders) of magnitude cheaper for me to even consider it. Not sure about parent comment though. Boat ~~ bust out another thousand Edit: I took parent comment as a joke but ya never know
    - roflyear 4y ago
      Right. I'm going to get a go I guess for passage making. Oh well!
  - roflyear 4y ago
    No. I just think that their other products and their talk around this was out of touch. They were responding to people who are average cruisers saying it was coming soon. It ended up being a joke.
- pigtailgirl 4y ago
  -- coverage is literally perfect for anywhere I take my (imaginary) yacht! - south of france? check! italian riviera? check! miami? Check! LA? Check! $5k a month? In YachtLand $5/mth is pocket change --
Someone1234 4y ago
- This is a more niche product (just due to sheer numbers). Therefore, supporting it for each user will have higher overheads. - Competition is expensive, e.g. BGAN at $284/GB of data transfer or more, while offering lower speeds (700 Kbps for a $6.5K Cobham Explorer 710, Vs. 350 Mbps for this). - Competition likely won't be able to directly compete on offering for a while. The next step will likely be commercial aircraft over the ocean. "Because they can [charge this]" is obviously the primary reason, but if you go look at what is available in this space right now, this isn't nuts, far from it. Internet over the ocean is an incredibly hard/expensive problem. You cannot directly compare it to over-the-land offerings where the consumers are 1:1M.
- hrgiger 4y ago
  Astrospace is also planning mobile broadband trough the satellites, their target audience also rural areas, I wonder they will support ocean as well, if so that would help competition.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
cjensen 4y ago
People do install normal starlink on boats [1]. The $10K/$5K price tag really has me scratching my head about what they are thinking. Does look like they plan to cover the entire ocean, so at least there is a specific benefit they can point to. They're definitely giving up a lot of everyday coastal business in hopes of making it up with a few whales. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHHCK6aARn0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHHCK6aARn0
- hef19898 4y ago
  Another option could be, so, that this is a somewhat realistic pricing. Assuming Iridium and co. do know what they are doing.
- mdasen 4y ago
  I think Starlink is looking for more money. They've raised prices on everyone 11% after about a year. They've introduced Starlink RV at a 23% premium over their regular Starlink service (and a 36% over the original Starlink price point). I think Starlink doesn't want to use too heavy a hand with customers using their equipment not as intended (as is the case with most companies), but it does look like they're trying to increase their average billings. I'd guess that they're trying to pick up a lot of commercial business. While it only covers coastal areas at the moment, it'll cover the North America/Europe/North Africa/Asia parts of the ocean in 6 months and substantially everywhere in 9 months. For a shipping company looking to replace their old-school satellite service, $10,000 for equipment and $5,000/mo is probably nothing. For every rich person with a yacht, that's basically nothing. It seems like a great way for Starlink to grab a lot of additional revenue in areas where there won't be a lot of congestion - and from people who are used to paying much more outrageous rates. And they haven't said that they're going to be heavy handed with people grabbing a $600 Dishy and putting it on their boat by the coast. Maybe they will be, but we haven't seen that yet. I'd also note that it's likely that the equipment is a lot better to withstand the motion and environment of being at sea. These are going to have to withstand a lot of salt-water air and spray while maintaining their motors in good working order. They'll probably also need to be rated for a longer lifespan given the amount of movement the motors will be doing compared to a stationary one (not just the travel of the vessel, but also the waves). I'd guess that Starlink is assuming that small boat owners will just grab a regular Dishy and service and Starlink will ignore it as long as they're relatively near land. This will add 45x the revenue for those who can afford it - shipping companies, rich people with yachts, etc.
extheat 4y ago
Seems like you can according to Starlink employees - https://twitter.com/JoeyScarantino/status/1545159542308102145 https://twitter.com/JoeyScarantino/status/154515954230810214... https://twitter.com/joeyscarantino/status/1545163931559215104?s=21&t=XExgWhUVFZllOVCMkKzObg https://twitter.com/joeyscarantino/status/154516393155921510...

"$5,000/mo with a one-time hardware cost of $10,000 for two high performance terminals." wow! Why cant you just take your normal starlink with you on your boat? Don't people do that with RVs?

pigtailgirl 4y ago

https://www.starlink.com/rv https://www.starlink.com/rv -- If I had to guess part of the reason would maybe be carrying capacity - a house that doesn't move is predictable - RVs & boats move so the per satellite bandwidth predictability of that class of object is lower - i think meaning the requirements for redundancy are higher - redundancy is expensive? - just a guess --

cronix 4y ago
Starlink RV is only currently meant to be used while stationary and can't track while in motion, which is why the hardware is identical to the home unit. They're supposed to be coming out with new hardware that allows use while in motion. It was only a week ago that the FCC approved the application for "vehicles in motion."[1] It will be on airplanes as well, soon. [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/30/fcc-approves-spacex-starlink-service-to-vehicles-boats-planes.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/06/30/fcc-approves-spacex-starlink...
- vl 4y ago
  What I really want is hardware that is mounted on RV roof and can be deployed and folded with a press of a button. While I don't care if it works in motion, I do care about setup convenience, and I'm not getting current version because setting it up is just too cumbersome. Or even better: just flat beam-forming antenna on the RV roof. Once thing there is enough on the roof is space.
  - jonah 4y ago
    Ehh, we just got an RV unit for Search and Rescue use in remote areas[0]. Setup is about three steps and just a couple minutes. Waiting 5-15 minutes for it to connect to the constellation takes longer. [0] https://www.instagram.com/p/CfUUWVfJKo1/ https://www.instagram.com/p/CfUUWVfJKo1/
    - vl 4y ago
      When you setup RV, you already have to do a lot. Every extra thing counts. On top of that you can’t really leave this unit deployed and leave - the risk of it being stolen is relatively high.
  - jpgvm 4y ago
    Yeah would be possible with a larger antenna that has a wider FOV. The current dish has too narrow a FOV to simply recess it into the roof/enclosure unfortunately.

plasticchris 4y ago

Would only work near shore, this must mean they have some capability to go beyond the one hop to a station. Edit: from the coverage map it looks like this is only coastal waters…

adingus 4y ago
Interesting. I didn't know that coverage was limited. I assumed satellite == pretty much all of earth.
- plasticchris 4y ago
  It will once they get the laser terminals up and running so the sats can talk to each other
- xxpor 4y ago
  They can't do satellite to satellite yet. Just terminal -> sat -> ground station. Starlink is in low earth orbit, so the visibility any one satellite has is (relatively speaking) pretty limited.
- ortusdux 4y ago
  The majority of their satellites just bounce the signals back down to a nearby ground station. Their version 1.5 sats, which they started launching about a year ago, include laser links to allow sat->sat communication. Their plan is for the remaining 3/4th of their fleet to have laser links. One interesting side-effect of the laser links is that they can open up connections between stock exchanges and trading houses that are faster than direct fiberoptic lines. Milliseconds count in high frequency trading.
  - foobiekr 4y ago
    Predictability and stability count a lot as well. I think the starlink-as-low-latency-trading-medium is sort of like "blockchain for real estate" - it's not actually a real thing.

gvb 4y ago

"Starlink for RVs is not designed for use while in motion." Marine starlink needs to compensate for rolling, pitching, and forward motion.

cronix 4y ago
Sounds like they added a gimbal or something?
- dicknuckle 4y ago
  These are common on radar systems, and nothing to sneeze at.
- gvb 4y ago
  The antenna is electronically steered. The pictures do not show any gimbal but they probably had to add an IMU to measure the motion of the boat (antenna) and adjust the antenna beam steering to compensate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_measurement_unit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_measurement_unit
  - bri3d 4y ago
    The Starlink Dishy already has an IMU in it. It does look like maybe the beam array is simply bigger.
- deelowe 4y ago
  Starlink uses beam forming. It shouldn't need a gimbal.
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    The phased array can probably only do so much and a gimbal might still be needed to compensate for movement outside of what the phased array can handle?
    - deelowe 4y ago

roflyear 4y ago

Look at the coverage map: https://api.starlink.com/public-files/maritime-coverage-map.pdf https://api.starlink.com/public-files/maritime-coverage-map.... What a fucking joke. "coming soon" means nothing to me coming from a Musk company. Compare to the iridum network: https://www.groundcontrol.com/us/knowledge/calculators-and-maps/iridium-coverage-map-real-time-tracking/ https://www.groundcontrol.com/us/knowledge/calculators-and-m... Granted, iridium is much slower. But $5k a month for barely any coverage is an insult.

extheat 4y ago
Do you think running Starlink is cheap? Something seems to have struck a nerve.
- dieselgate 4y ago
  It’s only five boat units a month and ten boat units for setup. It’s no where near worth it for me because normal phone/wireless data works well where I sail (in addition to iridium network fwiw) - the prices would need to be at least an order (orders) of magnitude cheaper for me to even consider it. Not sure about parent comment though. Boat ~~ bust out another thousand Edit: I took parent comment as a joke but ya never know
  - roflyear 4y ago
    Right. I'm going to get a go I guess for passage making. Oh well!
- roflyear 4y ago
  No. I just think that their other products and their talk around this was out of touch. They were responding to people who are average cruisers saying it was coming soon. It ended up being a joke.
pigtailgirl 4y ago
-- coverage is literally perfect for anywhere I take my (imaginary) yacht! - south of france? check! italian riviera? check! miami? Check! LA? Check! $5k a month? In YachtLand $5/mth is pocket change --

Someone1234 4y ago

- This is a more niche product (just due to sheer numbers). Therefore, supporting it for each user will have higher overheads. - Competition is expensive, e.g. BGAN at $284/GB of data transfer or more, while offering lower speeds (700 Kbps for a $6.5K Cobham Explorer 710, Vs. 350 Mbps for this). - Competition likely won't be able to directly compete on offering for a while. The next step will likely be commercial aircraft over the ocean. "Because they can [charge this]" is obviously the primary reason, but if you go look at what is available in this space right now, this isn't nuts, far from it. Internet over the ocean is an incredibly hard/expensive problem. You cannot directly compare it to over-the-land offerings where the consumers are 1:1M.

hrgiger 4y ago
Astrospace is also planning mobile broadband trough the satellites, their target audience also rural areas, I wonder they will support ocean as well, if so that would help competition.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

cjensen 4y ago

People do install normal starlink on boats [1]. The $10K/$5K price tag really has me scratching my head about what they are thinking. Does look like they plan to cover the entire ocean, so at least there is a specific benefit they can point to. They're definitely giving up a lot of everyday coastal business in hopes of making it up with a few whales. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHHCK6aARn0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHHCK6aARn0

hef19898 4y ago
Another option could be, so, that this is a somewhat realistic pricing. Assuming Iridium and co. do know what they are doing.
mdasen 4y ago
I think Starlink is looking for more money. They've raised prices on everyone 11% after about a year. They've introduced Starlink RV at a 23% premium over their regular Starlink service (and a 36% over the original Starlink price point). I think Starlink doesn't want to use too heavy a hand with customers using their equipment not as intended (as is the case with most companies), but it does look like they're trying to increase their average billings. I'd guess that they're trying to pick up a lot of commercial business. While it only covers coastal areas at the moment, it'll cover the North America/Europe/North Africa/Asia parts of the ocean in 6 months and substantially everywhere in 9 months. For a shipping company looking to replace their old-school satellite service, $10,000 for equipment and $5,000/mo is probably nothing. For every rich person with a yacht, that's basically nothing. It seems like a great way for Starlink to grab a lot of additional revenue in areas where there won't be a lot of congestion - and from people who are used to paying much more outrageous rates. And they haven't said that they're going to be heavy handed with people grabbing a $600 Dishy and putting it on their boat by the coast. Maybe they will be, but we haven't seen that yet. I'd also note that it's likely that the equipment is a lot better to withstand the motion and environment of being at sea. These are going to have to withstand a lot of salt-water air and spray while maintaining their motors in good working order. They'll probably also need to be rated for a longer lifespan given the amount of movement the motors will be doing compared to a stationary one (not just the travel of the vessel, but also the waves). I'd guess that Starlink is assuming that small boat owners will just grab a regular Dishy and service and Starlink will ignore it as long as they're relatively near land. This will add 45x the revenue for those who can afford it - shipping companies, rich people with yachts, etc.

extheat 4y ago

Seems like you can according to Starlink employees - https://twitter.com/JoeyScarantino/status/1545159542308102145 https://twitter.com/JoeyScarantino/status/154515954230810214... https://twitter.com/joeyscarantino/status/1545163931559215104?s=21&t=XExgWhUVFZllOVCMkKzObg https://twitter.com/joeyscarantino/status/154516393155921510...