5 ms·

It's possible I'm one of the few who thinks the best thing about Vim is the keybindings and other nifty features like macros, while everything else is archaic a

by jb1991 4y ago

It's possible I'm one of the few who thinks the best thing about Vim is the keybindings and other nifty features like macros, while everything else is archaic and frustrating, hence why I always looks for a good vim mode in a more modern IDE. Though often the vim mode is lacking (i.e. Xcode doesn't even support the dot operator to repeat a motion, which is astounding), and so we get back to square one with using vim again.

oblio 4y ago
You're not. "Perfect is the enemy of good", they say. However "barely adequate yet entrenched is the enemy of good" is what's happening with vim/Emacs improvements. The core editors are antiquated and creaky technology that won't and can't really be updated correctly because those changes would break too much and also because there's nothing to be gained financially from it (sad, yet ever-present fact of life). One of the biggest and most successful attempts at such a modernization is Neovim, but it still won't reach Sublime Text or VS Code levels of popularity, because they're still a team of volunteers, not a company backing it.
- Agentlien 4y ago
  I switched from Visual Studio to Vim ca 2013 mainly because the key bindings and macros made me feel a lot more efficient. I've tried Vim plugins for a number of editors including Visual Studio and Rider throughout the years. So far each one has had some few basic pieces of functionality implemented but not nearly enough to replace Vim. I feel like you need quite a large and well-rounded portion of its functionality to make a worthwhile replacement. With all the news I've seen about Neovim over the years I keep meaning to try it out at some time. I mainly haven't because there's nothing broken with my current setup and it seems like an investment of time and effort to reach a similar setup: I have quite a few changes in my vimrc and am using a number of plugins which I would need to get working or find replacements for.
- sophacles 4y ago
  Why on earth would I care if my tools are winning today's popularity contest? Tomorrow there will be a new contest, and the day after, and so on. In the mean time I'll be doing something useful with a tool I know and that doesn't need me to relearn the same basic tasks iteration after iteration.
  - oblio 4y ago
    I don't want to get into this debate, but one thing to keep in mind when arguing from this angle is that vim/Emacs competitors stopped being babies about 20 years ago. The computing world is big enough that someone that cut their teeth on Visual Studio can still be happily using it in 2022, a quarter century after its original launch. And will likely be able to use it in 2057, half a century after its original launch. With more or less the same keybindings and core workflow it had back in 1997.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
jng 4y ago
I couldn't believe the lack of support for the dot command in vi emulation in Xcode. Emulation is quite complete, mostly missing regex and ex command support (but even a vi mode that way it's still very usable), but without the key component that is dot command repetition, the whole vi/vim experience is ruined. There must have been some heated conversation at Apple, someone who knows and cares about vi/vim poured a ton of love into getting that right, and they must have felt the pain of not including dot command support. Just hoping they will address that in a future version of Xcode.
- jb1991 4y ago
  that one missing dot operator in Xcode is almost enough for me to use JetBrains AppCode instead
- nsb1 4y ago
  The dot command is always what seems lacking in the various emulation layers. Either it doesn't work at all, or doesn't work the way you expect. As a dot command addict, this makes me sad.
  - jb1991 4y ago
    The weird thing is that is just isn't there in Xcode in any form, yet is the most time-saving feature of the vim keybindings.
AltruisticGapHN 4y ago
Yep, VIM mode in Sublime Text, VS Code. In VSCode extension, the VIM marks that opens a file has never worked for me. As well, the ability to go back to the last edit in any recent files with `'.` doesn't work. Other than that it does all I want.
cehrlich 4y ago
Yeah, I also use VIM bindings in VS Code and love it. When I'm at my desk, in the zone, writing code, my hands pretty much don't leave the keyboard. But when I'm leaning back, browsing through files, etc. I just need to press 'i' once and I have a "normal" IDE. I couldn't imagine not being able to hover my cursor over something to read its type definitions, cmd+click to go into whatever I'm clicking on, etc. Sometimes I see one of those videos of a fully tricked out NeoVIM and it looks tempting, but I know I wouldn't actually like it.
- matwood 4y ago
  I just like modal editing, and know vi keybindings for the most part. Those bindings are also mostly consistent whether I'm in Intellij, VS Code, or some random Unix machine. I'm sure some vim expert would be annoyed at my mouse usage, but like you said, there are tons of useful features exposed.
blahgeek 4y ago
You should try emacs with evil (you may start with Spacemacs). Evil-mode is the best vim emulation layer I’ve ever seen in any editors except vim.
- jb1991 4y ago
  I used evil for about 2.5 years. It was pretty good but still not the same.
olalonde 4y ago
I would probably use Vim mode in VS Code if it supported NERDTree and I didn't have to reach out for my mouse at all.
- cik 4y ago
  I went insane setting up key combinations for everything in VSCode specifically so that I never have to use my mouse. It's painful - but it works. Eventually your fingers just remember.
  - clarents 4y ago
    Could you share your settings.json file? I'd be very interested in your setup.
Spooky23 4y ago
The beauty of vim is it has a rich feature set and is ubiquitous. The problem with the other vim inspired apps is they aren’t there! A couple of years ago I helped a friend out with moving some stuff off an ancient Solaris database server somehow still in production. Iirc it was Solaris 2.6… other than remembering which Unix tools were shipped broken by Sun, I was able to function right away. Shockingly, I even retained muscle memory of some of that database commands after many many years! :)
aftergibson 4y ago
Honestly I suspect that’s how the majority “use vim” these days. When I’m on the command line it’s a great lightweight editor, but trying to turn it into an IDE competitor is when the wheels start falling off fairly quickly.
H12 4y ago
You are not alone. If there were a GUI editor that had 1st-class Vim keybindings, native LSP support, fuzzy finding, and convenient file management tools a la Ranger, and optionally a built-in terminal, I'd switch in a heartbeat. OniVim2[0] looked really promising, but the project has unfortunately stalled after the creator had to step back for personal reasons. [0]: https://v2.onivim.io/ https://v2.onivim.io/
- iamunr 4y ago
  OniVim not getting finished was soul crushing. :(
infinitezest 4y ago
I do a lot of front-end dev and Neovim + lsp-config has gotten me everything I need in terms of auto-complete, go to definition, etc. IMO, its extremely easy to set up but Ive also been using Vim for a few years so I'm definitelt biased.
scns 4y ago
The IdeaVim plugin for intellij is really good. Macros and . do work.
diehunde 4y ago
It depends on the language you are using and maybe the size of your project. I did Ruby, Python, and Go development for years using only Vim and really enjoyed it. But the minute I started working on big Java and Scala codebases, I started struggling. I tried different LSP, completion engines, and debugging plugins, but I couldn't find the proper setup. The IDE Vim modes are decent these days but still lack those more advanced features to manage your buffers and windows for example.

by jb1991 4y ago

oblio 4y ago

You're not. "Perfect is the enemy of good", they say. However "barely adequate yet entrenched is the enemy of good" is what's happening with vim/Emacs improvements. The core editors are antiquated and creaky technology that won't and can't really be updated correctly because those changes would break too much and also because there's nothing to be gained financially from it (sad, yet ever-present fact of life). One of the biggest and most successful attempts at such a modernization is Neovim, but it still won't reach Sublime Text or VS Code levels of popularity, because they're still a team of volunteers, not a company backing it.

Agentlien 4y ago
I switched from Visual Studio to Vim ca 2013 mainly because the key bindings and macros made me feel a lot more efficient. I've tried Vim plugins for a number of editors including Visual Studio and Rider throughout the years. So far each one has had some few basic pieces of functionality implemented but not nearly enough to replace Vim. I feel like you need quite a large and well-rounded portion of its functionality to make a worthwhile replacement. With all the news I've seen about Neovim over the years I keep meaning to try it out at some time. I mainly haven't because there's nothing broken with my current setup and it seems like an investment of time and effort to reach a similar setup: I have quite a few changes in my vimrc and am using a number of plugins which I would need to get working or find replacements for.
sophacles 4y ago
Why on earth would I care if my tools are winning today's popularity contest? Tomorrow there will be a new contest, and the day after, and so on. In the mean time I'll be doing something useful with a tool I know and that doesn't need me to relearn the same basic tasks iteration after iteration.
- oblio 4y ago
  I don't want to get into this debate, but one thing to keep in mind when arguing from this angle is that vim/Emacs competitors stopped being babies about 20 years ago. The computing world is big enough that someone that cut their teeth on Visual Studio can still be happily using it in 2022, a quarter century after its original launch. And will likely be able to use it in 2057, half a century after its original launch. With more or less the same keybindings and core workflow it had back in 1997.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

jng 4y ago

I couldn't believe the lack of support for the dot command in vi emulation in Xcode. Emulation is quite complete, mostly missing regex and ex command support (but even a vi mode that way it's still very usable), but without the key component that is dot command repetition, the whole vi/vim experience is ruined. There must have been some heated conversation at Apple, someone who knows and cares about vi/vim poured a ton of love into getting that right, and they must have felt the pain of not including dot command support. Just hoping they will address that in a future version of Xcode.

jb1991 4y ago
that one missing dot operator in Xcode is almost enough for me to use JetBrains AppCode instead
nsb1 4y ago
The dot command is always what seems lacking in the various emulation layers. Either it doesn't work at all, or doesn't work the way you expect. As a dot command addict, this makes me sad.
- jb1991 4y ago
  The weird thing is that is just isn't there in Xcode in any form, yet is the most time-saving feature of the vim keybindings.

AltruisticGapHN 4y ago

Yep, VIM mode in Sublime Text, VS Code. In VSCode extension, the VIM marks that opens a file has never worked for me. As well, the ability to go back to the last edit in any recent files with `'.` doesn't work. Other than that it does all I want.

cehrlich 4y ago

Yeah, I also use VIM bindings in VS Code and love it. When I'm at my desk, in the zone, writing code, my hands pretty much don't leave the keyboard. But when I'm leaning back, browsing through files, etc. I just need to press 'i' once and I have a "normal" IDE. I couldn't imagine not being able to hover my cursor over something to read its type definitions, cmd+click to go into whatever I'm clicking on, etc. Sometimes I see one of those videos of a fully tricked out NeoVIM and it looks tempting, but I know I wouldn't actually like it.

matwood 4y ago
I just like modal editing, and know vi keybindings for the most part. Those bindings are also mostly consistent whether I'm in Intellij, VS Code, or some random Unix machine. I'm sure some vim expert would be annoyed at my mouse usage, but like you said, there are tons of useful features exposed.

blahgeek 4y ago

You should try emacs with evil (you may start with Spacemacs). Evil-mode is the best vim emulation layer I’ve ever seen in any editors except vim.

jb1991 4y ago
I used evil for about 2.5 years. It was pretty good but still not the same.

olalonde 4y ago

I would probably use Vim mode in VS Code if it supported NERDTree and I didn't have to reach out for my mouse at all.

cik 4y ago
I went insane setting up key combinations for everything in VSCode specifically so that I never have to use my mouse. It's painful - but it works. Eventually your fingers just remember.
- clarents 4y ago
  Could you share your settings.json file? I'd be very interested in your setup.

Spooky23 4y ago

The beauty of vim is it has a rich feature set and is ubiquitous. The problem with the other vim inspired apps is they aren’t there! A couple of years ago I helped a friend out with moving some stuff off an ancient Solaris database server somehow still in production. Iirc it was Solaris 2.6… other than remembering which Unix tools were shipped broken by Sun, I was able to function right away. Shockingly, I even retained muscle memory of some of that database commands after many many years! :)

aftergibson 4y ago

Honestly I suspect that’s how the majority “use vim” these days. When I’m on the command line it’s a great lightweight editor, but trying to turn it into an IDE competitor is when the wheels start falling off fairly quickly.

H12 4y ago

You are not alone. If there were a GUI editor that had 1st-class Vim keybindings, native LSP support, fuzzy finding, and convenient file management tools a la Ranger, and optionally a built-in terminal, I'd switch in a heartbeat. OniVim2[0] looked really promising, but the project has unfortunately stalled after the creator had to step back for personal reasons. [0]: https://v2.onivim.io/ https://v2.onivim.io/

iamunr 4y ago
OniVim not getting finished was soul crushing. :(

infinitezest 4y ago

I do a lot of front-end dev and Neovim + lsp-config has gotten me everything I need in terms of auto-complete, go to definition, etc. IMO, its extremely easy to set up but Ive also been using Vim for a few years so I'm definitelt biased.

scns 4y ago

The IdeaVim plugin for intellij is really good. Macros and . do work.

diehunde 4y ago

It depends on the language you are using and maybe the size of your project. I did Ruby, Python, and Go development for years using only Vim and really enjoyed it. But the minute I started working on big Java and Scala codebases, I started struggling. I tried different LSP, completion engines, and debugging plugins, but I couldn't find the proper setup. The IDE Vim modes are decent these days but still lack those more advanced features to manage your buffers and windows for example.