4 ms·

If you read OP’s post carefully, you might notice that they are not being dismissive of working for money, but it seems to me your response to the post treats i

If you read OP’s post carefully, you might notice that they are not being dismissive of working for money, but it seems to me your response to the post treats it as though it is (a strawman). To me, the OP’s post is an inquiry into “why” we do what we do. It is a useful inquiry that may be followed up with personal introspection, which might lead to a better understanding of ourselves if done with integrity. For example - we work to earn money. Why do we earn money? So we can live comfortably (your answer might vary). Why do we want to live comfortably? And so on… The line of reasoning you seem to have chosen ends at “to earn money” and then pivots to philosophers being affluent while seemingly (to me) proceeding to dismiss all the learnings procured by affluent people as though that makes them inherently different to the learnings procured by others (a conclusion that seems to have no solid basis).

kstenerud 4y ago
The "why" we do what we do is mostly governed by circumstance. And in modern times (the past 5000 or so years), circumstance is almost completely governed by money and politics. The meritocratic ideal is what keeps our minds enslaved. When you have enough security that you have no worries for the medium term, you gain the luxury of time and brain energy to contemplate these things rather than having to focus your thoughts on such base things as eating, shelter, health, and maintaining your position. The majority of us focus on our jobs, buy gadgets and take vacations because we don't have the luxuries of time and peace of mind (since our focus is by necessity on the near term), but we'd like to have them. And even a short-term feeling of luxury is better than none.
- dgfitz 4y ago
  > The majority of us focus on our jobs, buy gadgets and take vacations because we don't have the luxuries of time and peace of mind (since our focus is by necessity on the near term), but we'd like to have them. And even a short-term feeling of luxury is better than none. Apparently you’ve never been truly poor.
  - kstenerud 4y ago
    You've caught me out! I've never come home exhausted from deracking frozen coho salmon for 12 hours. I've never gone without food for days to ensure that I could make rent at the end of the month. I've never agonized over 20 cents. I've never taken 3 hour bus rides to work. Oh no, wait. The opposite. The poor live in a completely different world from the middle class, who live in a completely different world from the rich. And the philosophers generally live in the world of the rich, to preach to the world of the middle class. For the poor, there's only religion.
    - laszlojamf 4y ago
      An old man once told me that an educated person can suffer shortages but will never be poor. He meant educated in the broadest sense of the word, including what de Botton is talking about. I don't mean to take your suffering away from you, but just to point out that focusing on material things even in the near term is a choice. It doesn't cost anything to build relationships and invest in your mental health. It doesn't even take much time. It just requires conscious effort.
      - kstenerud 4y ago
        And here's an old man telling you that you absolutely CAN be poor. Poverty is a trap that's very difficult to escape because it saps all of your mental energy [1]. The mental exhaustion just from dealing with the day-to-day on the edge completely stunts your mental and emotional growth and severely limits your ability to respond to opportunities, which makes it even harder to escape. While the rich are learning how to trade in real estate and money markets, and the middle class are learning tricks to make the most of their 401k, the poor are looking for ways to save a few cents on carrots and bread. Top that all off with the constant victim blaming (I know you don't mean to, but that's basically what you're doing) and complete lack of empathy, and you have a vicious cycle that only the very lucky escape. I know that HN is big on the fable of the meritocracy, but that's mainly because a not-insignificant chunk of HNers are in the ruling class, and most of the rest are hopeful to enter someday, somehow. [1] https://phys.org/news/2012-11-poverty-people-focus-short-term.html https://phys.org/news/2012-11-poverty-people-focus-short-ter...

kstenerud 4y ago

The "why" we do what we do is mostly governed by circumstance. And in modern times (the past 5000 or so years), circumstance is almost completely governed by money and politics. The meritocratic ideal is what keeps our minds enslaved. When you have enough security that you have no worries for the medium term, you gain the luxury of time and brain energy to contemplate these things rather than having to focus your thoughts on such base things as eating, shelter, health, and maintaining your position. The majority of us focus on our jobs, buy gadgets and take vacations because we don't have the luxuries of time and peace of mind (since our focus is by necessity on the near term), but we'd like to have them. And even a short-term feeling of luxury is better than none.

dgfitz 4y ago
> The majority of us focus on our jobs, buy gadgets and take vacations because we don't have the luxuries of time and peace of mind (since our focus is by necessity on the near term), but we'd like to have them. And even a short-term feeling of luxury is better than none. Apparently you’ve never been truly poor.
- kstenerud 4y ago
  You've caught me out! I've never come home exhausted from deracking frozen coho salmon for 12 hours. I've never gone without food for days to ensure that I could make rent at the end of the month. I've never agonized over 20 cents. I've never taken 3 hour bus rides to work. Oh no, wait. The opposite. The poor live in a completely different world from the middle class, who live in a completely different world from the rich. And the philosophers generally live in the world of the rich, to preach to the world of the middle class. For the poor, there's only religion.
  - laszlojamf 4y ago
    An old man once told me that an educated person can suffer shortages but will never be poor. He meant educated in the broadest sense of the word, including what de Botton is talking about. I don't mean to take your suffering away from you, but just to point out that focusing on material things even in the near term is a choice. It doesn't cost anything to build relationships and invest in your mental health. It doesn't even take much time. It just requires conscious effort.
    - kstenerud 4y ago
      And here's an old man telling you that you absolutely CAN be poor. Poverty is a trap that's very difficult to escape because it saps all of your mental energy [1]. The mental exhaustion just from dealing with the day-to-day on the edge completely stunts your mental and emotional growth and severely limits your ability to respond to opportunities, which makes it even harder to escape. While the rich are learning how to trade in real estate and money markets, and the middle class are learning tricks to make the most of their 401k, the poor are looking for ways to save a few cents on carrots and bread. Top that all off with the constant victim blaming (I know you don't mean to, but that's basically what you're doing) and complete lack of empathy, and you have a vicious cycle that only the very lucky escape. I know that HN is big on the fable of the meritocracy, but that's mainly because a not-insignificant chunk of HNers are in the ruling class, and most of the rest are hopeful to enter someday, somehow. [1] https://phys.org/news/2012-11-poverty-people-focus-short-term.html https://phys.org/news/2012-11-poverty-people-focus-short-ter...