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> gas supplies in question were not covered by sanctions, but Russia tried to unilaterally switch to being paid in roubles I don’t think this is a very honest

> gas supplies in question were not covered by sanctions, but Russia tried to unilaterally switch to being paid in roubles I don’t think this is a very honest characterization: Russia demanded payment on their terms only after they were kicked out of SWIFT and their reserves frozen by foreign banks. I don’t think I’d describe that change in payment terms in response to bank sanctions as “unilateral” or unrelated to sanctions.

jelly 4y ago
Gazprombank is still in SWIFT
- duskwuff 4y ago
  Given reports that the Russian military may be paying soldiers through Gazprom, that probably won't last much longer. https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-gazprombank-sanctions-funds-russia-war-soldiers-wages/31920143.html https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-gazprombank-sanctions-funds-...
karpierz 4y ago
> Russia demanded payment on their terms only after they were kicked out of SWIFT and their reserves frozen by foreign banks. If only there was something Russia could do to stay in SWIFT and not be hit by sanctions....
- lachstar-x 4y ago
  Why stay in SWIFT when it's been demonstrated that they can be cut off from global supply on the whims of the US administration? That one decision did more for the death of the American empire than any other.
  - randunel 4y ago
    I don't think "whims" means what you think it does.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      What do you think it means?
    - spurgu 4y ago
      What do you think China and India think it means?
  - timeon 4y ago
    Just restate the obvious: Russia has invaded Ukraine.
  - 2000UltraDeluxe 4y ago
    It was a joint decision, taken by the US administration, the EU council, the UK and Canada in response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine -- not just something the Americans came up with.
bigDinosaur 4y ago
Russia's invasion of Ukraine was the unilateral issue here, everything else was a response to that. But either way I'd characterise this as a 'payment dispute' because the issue was how Russia wanted to be paid, not that Finland was barred from paying them at all.
- mperdemata 4y ago
  There is nothing unilateral in two imperialist powers fighting. Just like there was nothing unilateral in WW1 or WW2.
  - PoignardAzur 4y ago
    Sure, the start of World War 2 was very multilateral: Poland wanted not to get invaded, Nazi Germany and the USSR both disagreed. The parallels with the current situation are left up to the reader.
    - mperdemata 4y ago
      What about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement Do you really think that WW2 happened over whether Poland would be invaded? I think you are confusing cause and effect. Same as thinking that WWI happened due to the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand.
themitigating 4y ago
"only after they were kicked out of SWIFT and their reserves frozen by foreign banks." This is a response to an invasion of another country. Maybe I'm reading your tone wrong but "only after" seems to imply this was unjustified or at the least had no reason behind it.
- jeshin 4y ago
  I think their point was less to assign blame, but whether or not it was war related.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    The parent's use of "only after" doesn't sit right It implies a forced (no choice) reaction to an unjust or unexpected cause. A more neutral tone would have just said "after" "I ran from the police after they pulled me over for speeding" "I ran from the police only after they pulled me over for speeding"
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      I think your example negates your point. I don't read that as the speaker being forced to run, or that being pulled over was unjust. It describes the order of operations. The fact that someone ran only after being pulled over could be very relevant.
      - themitigating 4y ago
        That's fair. Maybe it's because I only qualify "after" with "only" if I'm making some point.
        s1artibartfast 4y ago
        I agree that there is a second part, conditionally. It Implies that you would not have run if you had not been pulled over- which is true! The same holds true for Russia. They would not have demanded payment in rubles if they had access to Swift. The problem is that people confuse conditionality and moral justification. I would not have run if they never pulled me over is no more of an excuse then I would never have shot him if he didn't look at me weird. Something can be conditional and true but still a bad reason.
albertopv 4y ago
I remember in a different way. Gas related banks were not included in first SWIFT sanctions, other banks were. They were only after Russia pretended to be paid in rubles. Of course that demand was driven by sanctions. If fact that gas related banks were left out of first sanctions was quite controversial, many saw that as a weak european move as europe is still unable to live without russian gas.

jelly 4y ago

Gazprombank is still in SWIFT

duskwuff 4y ago
Given reports that the Russian military may be paying soldiers through Gazprom, that probably won't last much longer. https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-gazprombank-sanctions-funds-russia-war-soldiers-wages/31920143.html https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-gazprombank-sanctions-funds-...

karpierz 4y ago

> Russia demanded payment on their terms only after they were kicked out of SWIFT and their reserves frozen by foreign banks. If only there was something Russia could do to stay in SWIFT and not be hit by sanctions....

lachstar-x 4y ago
Why stay in SWIFT when it's been demonstrated that they can be cut off from global supply on the whims of the US administration? That one decision did more for the death of the American empire than any other.
- randunel 4y ago
  I don't think "whims" means what you think it does.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    What do you think it means?
  - spurgu 4y ago
    What do you think China and India think it means?
- timeon 4y ago
  Just restate the obvious: Russia has invaded Ukraine.
- 2000UltraDeluxe 4y ago
  It was a joint decision, taken by the US administration, the EU council, the UK and Canada in response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine -- not just something the Americans came up with.

bigDinosaur 4y ago

Russia's invasion of Ukraine was the unilateral issue here, everything else was a response to that. But either way I'd characterise this as a 'payment dispute' because the issue was how Russia wanted to be paid, not that Finland was barred from paying them at all.

mperdemata 4y ago
There is nothing unilateral in two imperialist powers fighting. Just like there was nothing unilateral in WW1 or WW2.
- PoignardAzur 4y ago
  Sure, the start of World War 2 was very multilateral: Poland wanted not to get invaded, Nazi Germany and the USSR both disagreed. The parallels with the current situation are left up to the reader.
  - mperdemata 4y ago
    What about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement Do you really think that WW2 happened over whether Poland would be invaded? I think you are confusing cause and effect. Same as thinking that WWI happened due to the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand.

themitigating 4y ago

"only after they were kicked out of SWIFT and their reserves frozen by foreign banks." This is a response to an invasion of another country. Maybe I'm reading your tone wrong but "only after" seems to imply this was unjustified or at the least had no reason behind it.

jeshin 4y ago
I think their point was less to assign blame, but whether or not it was war related.
- themitigating 4y ago
  The parent's use of "only after" doesn't sit right It implies a forced (no choice) reaction to an unjust or unexpected cause. A more neutral tone would have just said "after" "I ran from the police after they pulled me over for speeding" "I ran from the police only after they pulled me over for speeding"
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    I think your example negates your point. I don't read that as the speaker being forced to run, or that being pulled over was unjust. It describes the order of operations. The fact that someone ran only after being pulled over could be very relevant.
    - themitigating 4y ago
      That's fair. Maybe it's because I only qualify "after" with "only" if I'm making some point.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        I agree that there is a second part, conditionally. It Implies that you would not have run if you had not been pulled over- which is true! The same holds true for Russia. They would not have demanded payment in rubles if they had access to Swift. The problem is that people confuse conditionality and moral justification. I would not have run if they never pulled me over is no more of an excuse then I would never have shot him if he didn't look at me weird. Something can be conditional and true but still a bad reason.

albertopv 4y ago

I remember in a different way. Gas related banks were not included in first SWIFT sanctions, other banks were. They were only after Russia pretended to be paid in rubles. Of course that demand was driven by sanctions. If fact that gas related banks were left out of first sanctions was quite controversial, many saw that as a weak european move as europe is still unable to live without russian gas.