6 ms·

I want it, but I'm not getting it until all the hardware works under Linux. MacOS is great, but someday they will stop updating MacOS for this. I see it as a

I want it, but I'm not getting it until all the hardware works under Linux. MacOS is great, but someday they will stop updating MacOS for this. I see it as a device with incredible longevity because of the fanless thermals and how it sips energy. I could see myself using it 10 years later. I want to run MacOS or Fedora Silverblue, with Silverblue being my true love. Immutable OS images <3 HAH, downvoted in seconds. Would not be surprised if there are Apple employees brigading this.

spallas 4y ago
https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.t...
senttoschool 4y ago
I don't think you're downvoted because of fanboys. I think you're downvoted because: 1. Linux is coming to Apple Silicon sooner or later. You can buy now, enjoy macOS, and then install Linux later. 2. It's not reasonable to expect to use it for 10 years. Even if Apple stops supporting it, you can still use it. In addition, Macs have insane resale value. So you can sell it in 5 years, and then buy a new one. This is a more reasonable approach than yours. 3. Apple tends to support their laptops for a long time. Usually 7-8 years. And given that this is their own chip and it's extremely powerful, I can see it being supported for 8 years at least.
- thrwawy283 4y ago
  1) We are now 2 generations in without full Linux support for the hardware. 2) I used my Powerbook G4 for 12 years; this is mostly because I was a kid with no money. When I got something else, my sister used it for another 3 years. With thermals as they are in this device, instead of selling it after 4-5 years I'd rather keep it for one-off projects as a server like a Mac Mini. I know laptops aren't designed for server work, but I love that it's a server with a builtin terminal. Also a device I'd use for hiking, because I could charge it from backpack solar. 3) The worst experience I've had was telling my dad MacOS Catalina couldn't be installed on his $3.5k iMac. As you said in your other comment, M3 will be 3nm TSMC? Maybe Linux will look good on Apple Silicon then.
  - tomaskafka 4y ago
    > The worst experience I've had was telling my dad MacOS Catalina couldn't be installed on his $3.5k iMac. Just in case you'd be ok with unofficial way - there are patchers to enable macOS install on older machines: https://www.macrumors.com/how-to/install-macos-catalina-unsupported-mac/ https://www.macrumors.com/how-to/install-macos-catalina-unsu...
    - thrwawy283 4y ago
      This is something I'd be comfortable with maintaining, but I couldn't leave with my dad. (I work on the road for months, and it's unpredictable when I come back. Longest I was out was 2 years..)
    - jiveturkey 4y ago
      Isn’t that backwards? He wants to install Catalina on M1/M2 hardware. So do I :(
  - nicoburns 4y ago
    You have pretty good support except for the GPU at this point (admittedly I'm waiting for this until I install it on my machine). They've had to write all the drivers from scratch, so it was bound to take a while. But on the plus side the hardware interfaces seem to be stable across generations. M2 parity with M1 was implemented in 48 hours! So I'm pretty confident it will mostly be case of linux support continuously improving rather than resetting with each new generation.
    - thrwawy283 4y ago
      The GPU is important.. afaik the keyboard and trackpad aren't working yet in Asahi Linux. I don't expect Apple to support the Linux community. It feels like this is trending in one direction. It felt like things stopped being "favorable" to us when they stopped supporting OpenGL and made no effort with Vulkan. The touchbar and some wifi chipsets were poorly supported for years before M1 debuted. What has been implemented in Asahi is impressive, but it's not ready to be a daily driver. I hope this becomes my mobile device of choice someday. I'd use MacOS for work-work, and I would choose Linux every time for fun-work. So tired of everything having telemetry and vendor lock-in and basic pieces of software moving to subscription models. Apple laptops became the dev machines of choice because they embraced the OSS community in pretty big ways. Right now the water feels tepid.
- eertami 4y ago
  >enjoy macOS If you're wanting to use your laptop for development work, you're going to pick the best job for the task. Moving to OSX would not only slow things down due to how slow non-native Docker is (no it is not negligible, yes I have an M1 Mac and I have tested it in a side-by-side comparison), but you have much less control over your environment compared to Linux. The vast majority of the people I've worked with choose to use Linux laptops over Macs, and I don't think CPU efficiency is something that's going to get them to change. While working from home, I can think of zero scenarios where I need more than 8 hours of battery life, which my x86 Intel laptop already exceeds.
  - thrwawy283 4y ago
    I think we're getting faster at iterating on bringing up dev environments. Silverblue is my favorite, but it's becoming common for me to develop everything within a docker image. As quickly as we're committing to a project, we're updating the env and rebuilding that image at the same time? I'm new to this. I have a friend who's really big into k8s and ansible. Right now it feels like I'm toying around in 1 pod. He can bring up a set of services around the thing he's developing in a few minutes. I want his power. :x
    - leadingthenet 4y ago
      It's called docker-compose, and it's really simple compared to even a 1 pod k8s. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by bringing up a set of services.
      - tomduncalf 4y ago
        Yeah seconding the recommendation for docker-compose, it's a great way to start up multiple services and once you know the syntax, pretty straightforward to use in my limited experience. You can essentially declaratively define which other Docker containers you want to start up (in which order), which volumes they can use, and which ports should be exposed.
  - rbanffy 4y ago
- johnfernow 4y ago
  > 2. It's not reasonable to expect to use it for 10 years. Even if Apple stops supporting it, you can still use it. In addition, Macs have insane resale value. So you can sell it in 5 years, and then buy a new one. This is a more reasonable approach than yours. Why is that? I still use my 2015 15" MacBook Pro which released 7 years ago, and I have no intention of replacing it anytime soon. This isn't the 70s, 80s, 90s or early 2000s: the improvements in performance from one year to the next are far more modest and the utility of further improvements are far less impactful than they once were. My 2015 MBP is still as capable of browsing the web, writing code, and video editing as it was back in 2016 when I got it. It's not in any way slow doing any of those tasks. The performance of an M2 MacBook would undoubtedly be much better, but am I actually going to be able to browse the web faster or write code any faster? Probably not. A new 16-inch MacBook Pro with 1TB storage emits approximately 620kg of CO2e in its manufacturing process (The Carbon Footprint of Everything by Mike Berners-Lee, 2020 second edition, page 140). Why should someone emit more than half a ton of CO2e for a new laptop unless they really need it? If you have a Mac that no longer gets OS updates by Apple, as long as it was released within the past decade you should be able to use OpenCore Legacy Patcher to update it to macOS Monterey (and later Ventura when it releases) without much issue. If it's older than that, you might run into some issues, but generally speaking everything from late 2008 and beyond is supported, with everything from late 2012 and beyond being fully supported. https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/START.html https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/START.htm...
  - mwint 4y ago
    > Why should someone emit more than half a ton of CO2e for a new laptop unless they really need it? If this is a serious concern for anyone, it looks like carbon capture runs around $22/ton. So this is an $11 problem.
    - buzzy_hacker 4y ago
      Do you mean offsets (which don’t really do anything)? Because carbon capture is more expensive than that.
- diffeomorphism 4y ago
  Why are 10 years not reasonable? Like ebay is full of 2013 laptops and people buy these. If it is not reasonable why can you resell it for a large amount after 5 years?
- SenHeng 4y ago
  I just checked several online auction sites and my 10 year old 2012 quad core Mac Mini can be sold for about $300 while my 5 year old 2017 retina MacBook can be sold for around $500. That is insane. * values converted to USD. Prices may differ in countries actually using USD.
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  > It's not reasonable to expect to use it for 10 years. Why ever not? I have 14 year old laptops that run fully up to date Linux just fine. Why can unpaid volunteers do better than one of the most profitable companies on earth? > So you can sell it in 5 years That just makes the looming end of support someone else's problem, it doesn't actually solve anything.
- krzyk 4y ago
  > enjoy macOS This is not something, a person that wants Linux, will enjoy. > It's not reasonable to expect to use it for 10 years. Even if Apple stops supporting it, you can still use it I'm not sure, my friend has M1 Macbook Air and he complains that it looses performance after a year.
  - kzrdude 4y ago
    What does that mean, that it loses performance?
frakkingcylons 4y ago
> Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
abrouwers 4y ago
I'm a current Linux Desktop (plasma) user, who is really tempted by this machine, given my 6 year old thinkpad is showing it's age. I'm not sure I can get used to MacOS's window management, even though the rest of the OS looks great. I'm definitely not a power user on linux (mostly sticking to defaults), but things like not being able to adjust the green button to maximize a window? Ugh.
- SamuelAdams 4y ago
  I use rectangle (app) for snapping windows around. I think CMD F will full screen just about every app, if not it’s another keyboard shortcut. You can also assign your own shortcuts in the keyboard preferences.
- timdev2 4y ago
  There are a number of utilities to improve window management on MacOS. I find rectangle[0] works reliably, without trying to do too much. Easy keyboard shortcuts to maximize, snap to 50% left/right, or quadrants. [0]: https://rectangleapp.com/ https://rectangleapp.com/
dang 4y ago
> HAH, downvoted in seconds. Would not be surprised if there are Apple employees brigading this. You broke more than one site guideline with this. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here? We'd appreciate it.

spallas 4y ago

https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.t...

senttoschool 4y ago

I don't think you're downvoted because of fanboys. I think you're downvoted because: 1. Linux is coming to Apple Silicon sooner or later. You can buy now, enjoy macOS, and then install Linux later. 2. It's not reasonable to expect to use it for 10 years. Even if Apple stops supporting it, you can still use it. In addition, Macs have insane resale value. So you can sell it in 5 years, and then buy a new one. This is a more reasonable approach than yours. 3. Apple tends to support their laptops for a long time. Usually 7-8 years. And given that this is their own chip and it's extremely powerful, I can see it being supported for 8 years at least.

thrwawy283 4y ago
1) We are now 2 generations in without full Linux support for the hardware. 2) I used my Powerbook G4 for 12 years; this is mostly because I was a kid with no money. When I got something else, my sister used it for another 3 years. With thermals as they are in this device, instead of selling it after 4-5 years I'd rather keep it for one-off projects as a server like a Mac Mini. I know laptops aren't designed for server work, but I love that it's a server with a builtin terminal. Also a device I'd use for hiking, because I could charge it from backpack solar. 3) The worst experience I've had was telling my dad MacOS Catalina couldn't be installed on his $3.5k iMac. As you said in your other comment, M3 will be 3nm TSMC? Maybe Linux will look good on Apple Silicon then.
- tomaskafka 4y ago
  > The worst experience I've had was telling my dad MacOS Catalina couldn't be installed on his $3.5k iMac. Just in case you'd be ok with unofficial way - there are patchers to enable macOS install on older machines: https://www.macrumors.com/how-to/install-macos-catalina-unsupported-mac/ https://www.macrumors.com/how-to/install-macos-catalina-unsu...
  - thrwawy283 4y ago
    This is something I'd be comfortable with maintaining, but I couldn't leave with my dad. (I work on the road for months, and it's unpredictable when I come back. Longest I was out was 2 years..)
  - jiveturkey 4y ago
    Isn’t that backwards? He wants to install Catalina on M1/M2 hardware. So do I :(
- nicoburns 4y ago
  You have pretty good support except for the GPU at this point (admittedly I'm waiting for this until I install it on my machine). They've had to write all the drivers from scratch, so it was bound to take a while. But on the plus side the hardware interfaces seem to be stable across generations. M2 parity with M1 was implemented in 48 hours! So I'm pretty confident it will mostly be case of linux support continuously improving rather than resetting with each new generation.
  - thrwawy283 4y ago
    The GPU is important.. afaik the keyboard and trackpad aren't working yet in Asahi Linux. I don't expect Apple to support the Linux community. It feels like this is trending in one direction. It felt like things stopped being "favorable" to us when they stopped supporting OpenGL and made no effort with Vulkan. The touchbar and some wifi chipsets were poorly supported for years before M1 debuted. What has been implemented in Asahi is impressive, but it's not ready to be a daily driver. I hope this becomes my mobile device of choice someday. I'd use MacOS for work-work, and I would choose Linux every time for fun-work. So tired of everything having telemetry and vendor lock-in and basic pieces of software moving to subscription models. Apple laptops became the dev machines of choice because they embraced the OSS community in pretty big ways. Right now the water feels tepid.
eertami 4y ago
>enjoy macOS If you're wanting to use your laptop for development work, you're going to pick the best job for the task. Moving to OSX would not only slow things down due to how slow non-native Docker is (no it is not negligible, yes I have an M1 Mac and I have tested it in a side-by-side comparison), but you have much less control over your environment compared to Linux. The vast majority of the people I've worked with choose to use Linux laptops over Macs, and I don't think CPU efficiency is something that's going to get them to change. While working from home, I can think of zero scenarios where I need more than 8 hours of battery life, which my x86 Intel laptop already exceeds.
- thrwawy283 4y ago
  I think we're getting faster at iterating on bringing up dev environments. Silverblue is my favorite, but it's becoming common for me to develop everything within a docker image. As quickly as we're committing to a project, we're updating the env and rebuilding that image at the same time? I'm new to this. I have a friend who's really big into k8s and ansible. Right now it feels like I'm toying around in 1 pod. He can bring up a set of services around the thing he's developing in a few minutes. I want his power. :x
  - leadingthenet 4y ago
    It's called docker-compose, and it's really simple compared to even a 1 pod k8s. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by bringing up a set of services.
    - tomduncalf 4y ago
      Yeah seconding the recommendation for docker-compose, it's a great way to start up multiple services and once you know the syntax, pretty straightforward to use in my limited experience. You can essentially declaratively define which other Docker containers you want to start up (in which order), which volumes they can use, and which ports should be exposed.
- rbanffy 4y ago
johnfernow 4y ago
> 2. It's not reasonable to expect to use it for 10 years. Even if Apple stops supporting it, you can still use it. In addition, Macs have insane resale value. So you can sell it in 5 years, and then buy a new one. This is a more reasonable approach than yours. Why is that? I still use my 2015 15" MacBook Pro which released 7 years ago, and I have no intention of replacing it anytime soon. This isn't the 70s, 80s, 90s or early 2000s: the improvements in performance from one year to the next are far more modest and the utility of further improvements are far less impactful than they once were. My 2015 MBP is still as capable of browsing the web, writing code, and video editing as it was back in 2016 when I got it. It's not in any way slow doing any of those tasks. The performance of an M2 MacBook would undoubtedly be much better, but am I actually going to be able to browse the web faster or write code any faster? Probably not. A new 16-inch MacBook Pro with 1TB storage emits approximately 620kg of CO2e in its manufacturing process (The Carbon Footprint of Everything by Mike Berners-Lee, 2020 second edition, page 140). Why should someone emit more than half a ton of CO2e for a new laptop unless they really need it? If you have a Mac that no longer gets OS updates by Apple, as long as it was released within the past decade you should be able to use OpenCore Legacy Patcher to update it to macOS Monterey (and later Ventura when it releases) without much issue. If it's older than that, you might run into some issues, but generally speaking everything from late 2008 and beyond is supported, with everything from late 2012 and beyond being fully supported. https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/START.html https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/START.htm...
- mwint 4y ago
  > Why should someone emit more than half a ton of CO2e for a new laptop unless they really need it? If this is a serious concern for anyone, it looks like carbon capture runs around $22/ton. So this is an $11 problem.
  - buzzy_hacker 4y ago
    Do you mean offsets (which don’t really do anything)? Because carbon capture is more expensive than that.
diffeomorphism 4y ago
Why are 10 years not reasonable? Like ebay is full of 2013 laptops and people buy these. If it is not reasonable why can you resell it for a large amount after 5 years?
SenHeng 4y ago
I just checked several online auction sites and my 10 year old 2012 quad core Mac Mini can be sold for about $300 while my 5 year old 2017 retina MacBook can be sold for around $500. That is insane. * values converted to USD. Prices may differ in countries actually using USD.
yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
> It's not reasonable to expect to use it for 10 years. Why ever not? I have 14 year old laptops that run fully up to date Linux just fine. Why can unpaid volunteers do better than one of the most profitable companies on earth? > So you can sell it in 5 years That just makes the looming end of support someone else's problem, it doesn't actually solve anything.
krzyk 4y ago
> enjoy macOS This is not something, a person that wants Linux, will enjoy. > It's not reasonable to expect to use it for 10 years. Even if Apple stops supporting it, you can still use it I'm not sure, my friend has M1 Macbook Air and he complains that it looses performance after a year.
- kzrdude 4y ago
  What does that mean, that it loses performance?

frakkingcylons 4y ago

> Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

abrouwers 4y ago

I'm a current Linux Desktop (plasma) user, who is really tempted by this machine, given my 6 year old thinkpad is showing it's age. I'm not sure I can get used to MacOS's window management, even though the rest of the OS looks great. I'm definitely not a power user on linux (mostly sticking to defaults), but things like not being able to adjust the green button to maximize a window? Ugh.

SamuelAdams 4y ago
I use rectangle (app) for snapping windows around. I think CMD F will full screen just about every app, if not it’s another keyboard shortcut. You can also assign your own shortcuts in the keyboard preferences.
timdev2 4y ago
There are a number of utilities to improve window management on MacOS. I find rectangle[0] works reliably, without trying to do too much. Easy keyboard shortcuts to maximize, snap to 50% left/right, or quadrants. [0]: https://rectangleapp.com/ https://rectangleapp.com/

dang 4y ago

> HAH, downvoted in seconds. Would not be surprised if there are Apple employees brigading this. You broke more than one site guideline with this. Would you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here? We'd appreciate it.