13 ms·

The only reason I see this relevant to HN is because lots of tech companies have been opening Montreal offices over the past 20 years. We have 4 universities an

by qwedf 4y ago

The only reason I see this relevant to HN is because lots of tech companies have been opening Montreal offices over the past 20 years. We have 4 universities and most educated people are bilingual in spite of the officialdom. However the drumbeats of separatism are banging again [1], so might be relevant considering what happened to the Montreal economy the last times these idiots were allowed to lead by their inferiority complex. Background: Native Montrealer, proud Canadian-Italian whose ancestors built the city, and have watched it decay over the past 40 years due to paternalistic and policies and a system of government that prioritizes the opinions of the "Les régions" over Montreal (it's like if voters in the Georgia countryside fully dictated how Atlanta operates) What Quebec nationalism has resulted in: -Literal language police (see: pastagate [2] - this stupidity had been doubled down on) -Codification of racism and suppression that also increases the burden on businesses (see: Bill 21 and Bill 96) [3,4] -Blatant disregard for the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (the "notwithstanding clause") [5] -Montreal was the most diverse, vibrant city in Canada, truly a global capital - this movement handed that directly to Toronto -Montreal was the financial and tech capital of Canada - this movement handed that directly to Toronto [1] https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/mobile/video?clipId=1831353 https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/mobile/video?clipId=1831353 [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastagate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastagate [3] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/what-bill-21-means-for-my-children-a-hard-lesson-1.5086538 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/what-bill-21-means-f... [4] https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/language-law-bill-96-adopted-promising-sweeping-changes-for-quebec-1.5916503 https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/language-law-bill-96-adopted-pro... [5] https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/mobile/what-is-the-notwithstanding-clause-again-1.5423223 https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/mobile/what-is-the-notwithstandi...

rayiner 4y ago
I don’t see anything about “racism” in 3 and 4. The first is about excluding religious symbols from public, which is what France does, and is an extremely left-wing notion. Certainly not what folks in “Georgia” would do. And the second is about mandatory French education. Explain to me where the “racism” is.
- realusername 4y ago
  I'd argue that it's the opposite, there's are a lot of discriminations against Québec from the english side, it's very apparent online and it's a bit shocking to watch to be honest. Those discriminations for sure helping the independence movement.
  - goosedragons 4y ago
    Besides criticism of laws like Bill 96 and 21 what discrimination is there? I don't think most English Canadians really care what Quebec and Quebecers do unless their pushing bad discriminatory laws. I think you'd see the same push back from the rest of Canada if Alberta decided to implement similar policies.
    - realusername 4y ago
      Most people? Sure I agree. But you can't really deny the degrading statements online, I've seen very harsh words against them and surveys against discrimination in Québec are showing a growing feeling of discrimination.
- angry_octet 4y ago
  But Catholic religious symbols are not excluded -- they're everywhere, but it's called 'history' and 'culture'. The lengths CSDM builders go to to leave a giant crucifix on a school building undisturbed even when demolishing the rest are truly noteworthy.
  - magic-chicken 4y ago
    The crucifix was removed from Quebec National Assembly a few years ago https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/crucifix-removed-national-assembly-from-blue-room-1.5205352 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/crucifix-removed-nat...
    - goosedragons 4y ago
raverbashing 4y ago
Or, summing up the financial impacts: the HQ of the "Bank of Montreal" have moved to Toronto
- thematrixturtle 4y ago
  It's not just the banks, basically all major companies moved their HQs to Toronto.
- qwedf 4y ago
  Everything but the former Crown corporations like Air Canada and Bell moved their HQs. And the ones that stayed only did so because the federal government made sure they stayed
thematrixturtle 4y ago
Illustrative fact: Quebec is the only place in the world where KFC is not KFC, but PFK (Poulet Frit Kentucky).
angry_octet 4y ago
It's really depressing how little the wider Quebec population understands about the very serious economic consequences of separation. They don't understand that Montreal, and all it's immigrant workers, is paying for their doctors and retirement plans, the reason they can afford a big house, a boat and holidays in Cuba. Making cheap electricity and aluminium isn't enough. There's a strong undercurrent of anti-Islamic and racial purity thinking in lots of the CAQ and PQ messaging. Frankly it's shocking how racist many of the policies are. Meanwhile industry in general is being squeezed by lack of staff and the CAQ keep the flow of migrants to a trickle with painful bureaucracy. "Nous embauchons!"
- myth_drannon 4y ago
  Look at Brexit. It's not about understanding the consequences but caring. And the populace just don't care. When you talk about nationalism, separatism and such, it's about emotions. Racism, antisimitism, the Others, that is the fuel of CAQ/PQ.
- mantas 4y ago
  At the same time, the world would be a better place if people cared about more things than material well being. If people are fine with less consumption and are willing to trade it for the sake of what they see as a better society.. Why not? That's like looking at hippy community out in the forests. And then bitching at them that they'll have very serious economic consequences.
  - angry_octet 4y ago
    Health is material well being? And really, people are not keen to give up quality if life to exclude immigrants, they've been suckered into believing immigrants are a burden on the state and are DESTROYING OUR CULTURE BY CAUSING MULTICULTURALISM. Yes, multiculturalism, the recognition that people of various cultures can benefit from that mixing ideas, is a curse word for the right-separatists. As if a few North African restaurants and a couple of mosques will cause Québécois culture to disintegrate. Quebec has been next to the USA and anglophone Canada for it's entire existence and every American or Ontarian concept has been molded to suit, but has never replaced a local tradition unless the local wanted it to.
vasco 4y ago
You seem like you think about these issues and are not pro nationalism ideals but you type this: > proud Canadian-Italian Why are you proud of your nationalities? Seems weird in the face of the rest of your comment.
- CoastalCoder 4y ago
  I suspect it's more of a standard disclaimer to signal that he isn't anti-Canadian. I.e., "I'm on your side, so I mean this with love..."
- qwedf 4y ago
  To be clear I'm upset about these policies because they stamped out the ideals of Montreal and have strangled the city, turning it from a truly global capital to a provincial backwater that's now more renowned as a great place for Americans to get in some underage drinking. My National ideals, and those of the majority from Montreal, are multilingualism and multiculturalism. Runs against the ideals of the ROQ (Rest Of Quebec) and it's disheartening to see my city suffocate under rules written up by people and for people who are not actually from the city
  - vasco 4y ago
    Thanks for answering! It seemed like a contradiction but I understand your point of view.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    > My National ideals, and those of the majority from Montreal, are multilingualism and multiculturalism. Those are Anglo-influenced globalist ideals. The Francophone world is decidedly not multicultural. It’s proud of French history and culture and dedicated to protecting it. London or Toronto are like the Android ecosystem. An eclectic if often inelegant free for all. Paris and Montreal are like iOS: carefully curated and strongly opinionated.
    - qwedf 4y ago
      During its ascendency as a global capital, Montreal was a decidedly multicultural and multicultural metropolis. One that native Montrealers (read: those with deep roots here) try to cultivate. But today's Montreal is the result of heavy-handed, paternalistic social engineering driven by an external government over the past 40 years... And is a shell of its former self. One that is going to be further hollowed unless these laws are reversed.

by qwedf 4y ago

rayiner 4y ago

I don’t see anything about “racism” in 3 and 4. The first is about excluding religious symbols from public, which is what France does, and is an extremely left-wing notion. Certainly not what folks in “Georgia” would do. And the second is about mandatory French education. Explain to me where the “racism” is.

realusername 4y ago
I'd argue that it's the opposite, there's are a lot of discriminations against Québec from the english side, it's very apparent online and it's a bit shocking to watch to be honest. Those discriminations for sure helping the independence movement.
- goosedragons 4y ago
  Besides criticism of laws like Bill 96 and 21 what discrimination is there? I don't think most English Canadians really care what Quebec and Quebecers do unless their pushing bad discriminatory laws. I think you'd see the same push back from the rest of Canada if Alberta decided to implement similar policies.
  - realusername 4y ago
    Most people? Sure I agree. But you can't really deny the degrading statements online, I've seen very harsh words against them and surveys against discrimination in Québec are showing a growing feeling of discrimination.
angry_octet 4y ago
But Catholic religious symbols are not excluded -- they're everywhere, but it's called 'history' and 'culture'. The lengths CSDM builders go to to leave a giant crucifix on a school building undisturbed even when demolishing the rest are truly noteworthy.
- magic-chicken 4y ago
  The crucifix was removed from Quebec National Assembly a few years ago https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/crucifix-removed-national-assembly-from-blue-room-1.5205352 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/crucifix-removed-nat...
  - goosedragons 4y ago

raverbashing 4y ago

Or, summing up the financial impacts: the HQ of the "Bank of Montreal" have moved to Toronto

thematrixturtle 4y ago
It's not just the banks, basically all major companies moved their HQs to Toronto.
qwedf 4y ago
Everything but the former Crown corporations like Air Canada and Bell moved their HQs. And the ones that stayed only did so because the federal government made sure they stayed

thematrixturtle 4y ago

Illustrative fact: Quebec is the only place in the world where KFC is not KFC, but PFK (Poulet Frit Kentucky).

angry_octet 4y ago

It's really depressing how little the wider Quebec population understands about the very serious economic consequences of separation. They don't understand that Montreal, and all it's immigrant workers, is paying for their doctors and retirement plans, the reason they can afford a big house, a boat and holidays in Cuba. Making cheap electricity and aluminium isn't enough. There's a strong undercurrent of anti-Islamic and racial purity thinking in lots of the CAQ and PQ messaging. Frankly it's shocking how racist many of the policies are. Meanwhile industry in general is being squeezed by lack of staff and the CAQ keep the flow of migrants to a trickle with painful bureaucracy. "Nous embauchons!"

myth_drannon 4y ago
Look at Brexit. It's not about understanding the consequences but caring. And the populace just don't care. When you talk about nationalism, separatism and such, it's about emotions. Racism, antisimitism, the Others, that is the fuel of CAQ/PQ.
mantas 4y ago
At the same time, the world would be a better place if people cared about more things than material well being. If people are fine with less consumption and are willing to trade it for the sake of what they see as a better society.. Why not? That's like looking at hippy community out in the forests. And then bitching at them that they'll have very serious economic consequences.
- angry_octet 4y ago
  Health is material well being? And really, people are not keen to give up quality if life to exclude immigrants, they've been suckered into believing immigrants are a burden on the state and are DESTROYING OUR CULTURE BY CAUSING MULTICULTURALISM. Yes, multiculturalism, the recognition that people of various cultures can benefit from that mixing ideas, is a curse word for the right-separatists. As if a few North African restaurants and a couple of mosques will cause Québécois culture to disintegrate. Quebec has been next to the USA and anglophone Canada for it's entire existence and every American or Ontarian concept has been molded to suit, but has never replaced a local tradition unless the local wanted it to.

vasco 4y ago

You seem like you think about these issues and are not pro nationalism ideals but you type this: > proud Canadian-Italian Why are you proud of your nationalities? Seems weird in the face of the rest of your comment.

CoastalCoder 4y ago
I suspect it's more of a standard disclaimer to signal that he isn't anti-Canadian. I.e., "I'm on your side, so I mean this with love..."
qwedf 4y ago
To be clear I'm upset about these policies because they stamped out the ideals of Montreal and have strangled the city, turning it from a truly global capital to a provincial backwater that's now more renowned as a great place for Americans to get in some underage drinking. My National ideals, and those of the majority from Montreal, are multilingualism and multiculturalism. Runs against the ideals of the ROQ (Rest Of Quebec) and it's disheartening to see my city suffocate under rules written up by people and for people who are not actually from the city
- vasco 4y ago
  Thanks for answering! It seemed like a contradiction but I understand your point of view.
- rayiner 4y ago
  > My National ideals, and those of the majority from Montreal, are multilingualism and multiculturalism. Those are Anglo-influenced globalist ideals. The Francophone world is decidedly not multicultural. It’s proud of French history and culture and dedicated to protecting it. London or Toronto are like the Android ecosystem. An eclectic if often inelegant free for all. Paris and Montreal are like iOS: carefully curated and strongly opinionated.
  - qwedf 4y ago
    During its ascendency as a global capital, Montreal was a decidedly multicultural and multicultural metropolis. One that native Montrealers (read: those with deep roots here) try to cultivate. But today's Montreal is the result of heavy-handed, paternalistic social engineering driven by an external government over the past 40 years... And is a shell of its former self. One that is going to be further hollowed unless these laws are reversed.