9 ms·

Quebec Sovereignty Movement

50 points by luu 4y ago

peppermint_tea 4y ago
Being a Québecois, I am divided on this issue. To heavily summarize : Pro : - Only one level of corruption instead of two to keep in check. - A (sometime too zealous) protection of the language. Against : - Less international political weight - Companies forced to to business in french by law might gtfo since it incur costs - Weak military power (would we stay in NATO?) Globally : Our roads are already crap. Healthcare is free but your experience in quality of service might vary. We already selling our natural resources like there is no tomorrow and we store nuclear waste here too.
- the_biot 4y ago
  At the time of the referendum, at least, I recall that Quebec was a net recipient of federal funds, i.e. was not economically self-sufficient. I always assumed that played a role in the way the vote went: people expecting the Quebec economy to nosedive on independence. What's the situation now?
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    If they ever are not net recipients the formula gets changed so they are.
    - peppermint_tea 4y ago
      more specifically : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_payments_in_Canada#Equalization_formula https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_payments_in_Canad...
- hervature 4y ago
  As someone who grew up on the Ontario-Quebec border in Northern Ontario, to highlight why this is absurd you just need to realize that roads and healthcare are a provincial thing. Quebec is already responsible for funding those things. Furthermore, Quebec receives equalization payments from the rest of Canada because they run such a deficit. If they cut themselves off, things would only get worse. The two levels of corruption doesn't make sense, Quebec would obviously set up its own provinces. I also think that the language would suffer because Canada is able to convince all American companies to translate everything because the other 30 million wallets are worth it. I highly suspect you would get the France version if they demanded only French products which, for those that don't know, would be perceived as more of a personal affront than American English being pushed onto the UK. At best, they would continue to get the Canadian version. In which case, what exactly was achieved?
  - peppermint_tea 4y ago
    For the roads, I know it is totally on our own. This is why I put it in the "global" section... As soon as you get in Ontario, roads gets better. Healthcare was also in the global section. I know about péréquation and that Québec is a net receiver too. The "global" section is just sad state of affairs with no pro/cons separatism points. The 2 level of corruption that I refer too is probably just the sponsorship scandal that left me a bitter taste of how my federal tax dollars were spent. For the language though, I am not sure. Even Air Canada got fined a few times because they did not respect bilingualism.
  - honkdaddy 4y ago
    To your last point, are most American shows aired in Quebec translated into Quebecois French? I’m from Ontario and had no idea, I always assumed they watched the France version. That’s very fascinating!
    - hervature 4y ago
      Actually, media is probably the only thing that wouldn't change because there are explicit English and French channels and the French channels probably pay for the translations themselves. I meant for all the signage of products like nutrition labels and product descriptions. It would be like saying "aluminum foil" instead of "aluminium foil" which is literally nothing. Except, these people separated for the explicit reason to product "aluminium foil". Right now, companies redesign their entire packaging for Canada as a whole to include both official languages (as it is a requirement) and the marginal price of doing the Canadian French translation is minuscule. If Quebec separated, I think they would either receive the Canadian version or the French (from France) version. In either case, the only thing they've done is removed themselves from having any influence on their language. The other possibility is I suppose companies would get around to the Quebec version (if required) after Hungary and Israel. I'm not sure separatists understand what that would mean.
johnasmith 4y ago
I'm Québécois from birth (Trois Rivières). I voted in the incredibly close '95 seperation referendum. In my view, separation or sovereignty would be bad for us. Separation is mainly predicated on the idea that Québécois are culturally distinct from the rest of Canada, and that our values would be better represented independently. We mostly speak French, and the rest of Canada is predominantly anglo (my New Brunswick Acadian mother in law would have me point out New Brunswick is officially bilingual and has many Francophones). Separatists would argue that there are substantively deeper differences, but having lived abroad in several countries over a decade and returned, any differences seem to me razor thin. We have vastly more in common than separates us. Breaking from Canada to underline these minor differences would come at a tremendous cost. But creating a movement around identity is easy. So every now and again separatist ideas gather steam. We'll pay through the nose for a Québécois Nation and be no better off for it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Quebec_referendum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Quebec_referendum
- bigDinosaur 4y ago
  What powers does Quebec want that it doesn't actually have?
  - bregma 4y ago
    It's not about power. It's about purity. The hardcore members of the independence movement bandies about what translates as "the pure wool". Today, their arguments are referred to elsewhere as "the great replacement theory".
    - jpambrun 4y ago
      If those hardcore exist, they represent a very small minority.
      - bregma 4y ago
        A small minority that would have won independence if it weren't for the money and the ethnic vote [0]. Nevertheless they've been able to circle the wagons [1]. [0] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jacques_Parizeau https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jacques_Parizeau [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_respecting_the_laicity_of_the_State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_respecting_the_laicity_of_...
IIAOPSW 4y ago
Even more interesting, if it went through the Western half of Canada would effectively be cut off from the bulk of the countries population and economic centers. For this reason, the Governor of Alberta at the time had planned to cede to the US had the referendum been a success. At that point there probably would have been something of a domino effect, with the other Western provinces doing the same.
- voisin 4y ago
  > if it went through the Western half of Canada would effectively be cut off from the bulk of the countries population and economic centers. What? Quebec is east of Ontario, so the entire west of Canada is still connected to Ontario by land. Only lightly populated, economically minuscule (but gorgeous) eastern provinces would be cut off. > For this reason, the Governor of Alberta at the time had planned to cede to the US had the referendum been a success. Premiere of Alberta. Albertans threaten this regularly when one or another of their extractive projects doesn’t get approved.
- swottler 4y ago
  Could you clarify? Wouldn't this only cut Newfoundland and Labrador off from the rest of Canada? Can't see how this would affect Western Canada's access to the population/economic centre which is basically just Ontario, and to a lesser degree BC and Alberta itself. (Excepting Quebec, which I guess all of Canada would be cut off from to the same degree in this scenario).
  - ncphillips 4y ago
    There’s 3 other provinces east of Quebec
    - hinoki 4y ago
      Newfoundland and Labrador Nova Scotia New Brunswick Prince Edward Island
  - IIAOPSW 4y ago
silvereau 4y ago
- kergonath 4y ago
  Because someone posted it, and others upvoted it. Do you even know how HN works?
silvereau 4y ago
Why is this even in hacker news?
darthcloud 4y ago
Anyone interested in this subject should watch Radio-Canada/CBC excellent documentary Breaking Point part [1] & part [2]. It make a good job of showing both side motivation in the 95 referendum and also the international politics in trying to get France to recognize a Yes vote. [1] https://youtu.be/Fl7lOundk4Y https://youtu.be/Fl7lOundk4Y [2] https://youtu.be/nnF46gRSPig https://youtu.be/nnF46gRSPig
qwedf 4y ago
The only reason I see this relevant to HN is because lots of tech companies have been opening Montreal offices over the past 20 years. We have 4 universities and most educated people are bilingual in spite of the officialdom. However the drumbeats of separatism are banging again [1], so might be relevant considering what happened to the Montreal economy the last times these idiots were allowed to lead by their inferiority complex. Background: Native Montrealer, proud Canadian-Italian whose ancestors built the city, and have watched it decay over the past 40 years due to paternalistic and policies and a system of government that prioritizes the opinions of the "Les régions" over Montreal (it's like if voters in the Georgia countryside fully dictated how Atlanta operates) What Quebec nationalism has resulted in: -Literal language police (see: pastagate [2] - this stupidity had been doubled down on) -Codification of racism and suppression that also increases the burden on businesses (see: Bill 21 and Bill 96) [3,4] -Blatant disregard for the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (the "notwithstanding clause") [5] -Montreal was the most diverse, vibrant city in Canada, truly a global capital - this movement handed that directly to Toronto -Montreal was the financial and tech capital of Canada - this movement handed that directly to Toronto [1] https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/mobile/video?clipId=1831353 https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/mobile/video?clipId=1831353 [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastagate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastagate [3] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/what-bill-21-means-for-my-children-a-hard-lesson-1.5086538 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/what-bill-21-means-f... [4] https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/language-law-bill-96-adopted-promising-sweeping-changes-for-quebec-1.5916503 https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/language-law-bill-96-adopted-pro... [5] https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/mobile/what-is-the-notwithstanding-clause-again-1.5423223 https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/mobile/what-is-the-notwithstandi...
- rayiner 4y ago
  I don’t see anything about “racism” in 3 and 4. The first is about excluding religious symbols from public, which is what France does, and is an extremely left-wing notion. Certainly not what folks in “Georgia” would do. And the second is about mandatory French education. Explain to me where the “racism” is.
  - realusername 4y ago
GnarfGnarf 4y ago
As a Québecois, I have a theory about séparatisme: it is a clever ploy to get both levels of government to pander to Québec. The Federal and Provincial governments are always trying to outdo each other with concessions, largesse and favourable treatment. Québec should not separate because the Sûreté du Québec (Provincial Police) are voyous (bums). Personally I would not want to live in a land where I could not call the Rocky Mountains mine.
- jpambrun 4y ago
  Have you ever been to the rockys? I have herd this argument before.. I really can't understand it..
  - GnarfGnarf 4y ago
    Well yes... I have been to the Rockies. That's why I am proud of them. I lived three years in Alberta. I skied at Fortress, Sunshine, hills so long they cross provinces. The mountains are magnificent, awe-inspiring. I now live in the Maritimes. Stan Rogers' Mary Ellen Carter is one of the greatest songs ever written :o)
incomingpain 4y ago
Quebec is represented by the CAQ at provincial level who are nationalist/separatist. Bloc at federal level who are also separatists. Quebec quite clearly wants to separate. Technically speaking if we were to have a nationwide referendum on 'should canada kick quebec to the curb' it would be overwhelmingly in favour of throwing quebec out. So what's going on? If you go back 75 years. Quebec due to the language barrier has economic isolation. This makes them quite poor. Quebec has traditionally been very poor compared to the rest of the continent. To 'help', on average Quebec receives 40-75 billion more than they pay in taxes. More importantly, lets say Quebec separates. Quebec is so screwed. They will be short so much money they effectively would be immediately forced to close all of their schools including post-secondary. AND immediately close all public healthcare. That's how much money Quebec would have to raise in taxes just to break even after losing Canada. Then they have to go further. What you think you dont need a military? Quebec has no trade agreements or alliances. They basically have to more than double their tax burden. I wonder if the people of Quebec feel like they are heavily undertaxed?
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
  > What you think you dont need a military? Actually they wouldn’t. There is no way in hell that the US allows a foreign power to attack Quebec. That area is too strategically sensitive to the US.
- jpambrun 4y ago
  Your premise is false. CAQ is not separatist and bloc has barely any representative. Seperation is at a all time low. The level of transfer payment is closer to 10b than 75b.. What sort of BS do you believe in the ROC??
  - incomingpain 4y ago
    >CAQ is not separatist and bloc has barely any representative. Seperation is at a all time low. I do understand legault has said he's not separatist. Actions > words. Quebec Liberals have been quite vocal that the CAQ are separatists. As an objective ontario person I say the CAQ are separatist. Let's not even bring up Trudeau and western alienation. In terms of Bloc representation. They have what 50% of the seats in Quebec. Sure sounds like representation to me. Though yes I do agree separatism is quite low, but that seems to have far more to do with the reality that Quebec becomes poor. >The level of transfer payment is closer to 10b than 75b.. If you're looking solely at 'equalization payments' it's around $13 billion. That's not the only money going to Quebec. Canada Health Transfer is another $10B to Quebec. Canada social transfer is another $3B to quebec. There's $26 billion in straight up $ transfers. Now you also have to look at other federal expenditures. Quebec pays X$/year in taxes but the fed pays for lots of things within Quebec. CBSA, Military, etc. The lowest it has ever been is about $20billion in net difference. That is to say, Canadians paying Quebec $20 billion on top of that $26 billion. Canadians have been giving Quebec a ton of money for decades and it's also getting worse. Though the table that I use hasn't been updated because of covid. So I don't know what this years' data looks like. Fundamentally Quebec is basically incapable of separating.
zppln 4y ago
I read Infinite Jest a few years ago but thought that Les Assassins des Fauteuils Rollents was just an absurdity...
lemonlimes 4y ago
Full disclosure, I am a Quebecker who is against separation. A lot of the debate is around the protection of the French language, which gets stretched out in every political issue. One thing which wasn't mentioned is how unique Quebec's position is geographically. There are few regions which are as surrounded by another dominant language. I think just this phenomenon puts pressure on conserving the French language. I also believe that this makes us stick out like a sore thumb in North America. I will regularly see comment sections riddled with ill informed negative comments about Quebec. Another thing to keep in mind is that in our history, English colonial forces tried to assimilate French people on a few occasions (search for "Durham Report" as an example). I do believe that a lot of trauma has been passed on through generations. Finally, I believe the Federal government doesn't do enough for French speakers inside and outside Quebec. As a result, the separatist movement gives a voice to French people who feel unheard. This just results in political and cultural tensions. While we debate this issue, the people who benefit the least are indigenous people. Their case is politicized on both sides and legislations rarely benefit them.
thejackgoode 4y ago
Interesting fact about how slowly things change. I drank a weissbier from Munich yesterday, and French language section on the can included instructions for Quebec explicitly. English one for Canada had instructions in both English and French https://ibb.co/Sr9mXC3 https://ibb.co/Sr9mXC3

50 points by luu 4y ago

Being a Québecois, I am divided on this issue. To heavily summarize : Pro : - Only one level of corruption instead of two to keep in check. - A (sometime too zealous) protection of the language. Against : - Less international political weight - Companies forced to to business in french by law might gtfo since it incur costs - Weak military power (would we stay in NATO?) Globally : Our roads are already crap. Healthcare is free but your experience in quality of service might vary. We already selling our natural resources like there is no tomorrow and we store nuclear waste here too.

the_biot 4y ago
At the time of the referendum, at least, I recall that Quebec was a net recipient of federal funds, i.e. was not economically self-sufficient. I always assumed that played a role in the way the vote went: people expecting the Quebec economy to nosedive on independence. What's the situation now?
- ipaddr 4y ago
  If they ever are not net recipients the formula gets changed so they are.
  - peppermint_tea 4y ago
    more specifically : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_payments_in_Canada#Equalization_formula https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equalization_payments_in_Canad...
hervature 4y ago
As someone who grew up on the Ontario-Quebec border in Northern Ontario, to highlight why this is absurd you just need to realize that roads and healthcare are a provincial thing. Quebec is already responsible for funding those things. Furthermore, Quebec receives equalization payments from the rest of Canada because they run such a deficit. If they cut themselves off, things would only get worse. The two levels of corruption doesn't make sense, Quebec would obviously set up its own provinces. I also think that the language would suffer because Canada is able to convince all American companies to translate everything because the other 30 million wallets are worth it. I highly suspect you would get the France version if they demanded only French products which, for those that don't know, would be perceived as more of a personal affront than American English being pushed onto the UK. At best, they would continue to get the Canadian version. In which case, what exactly was achieved?
- peppermint_tea 4y ago
  For the roads, I know it is totally on our own. This is why I put it in the "global" section... As soon as you get in Ontario, roads gets better. Healthcare was also in the global section. I know about péréquation and that Québec is a net receiver too. The "global" section is just sad state of affairs with no pro/cons separatism points. The 2 level of corruption that I refer too is probably just the sponsorship scandal that left me a bitter taste of how my federal tax dollars were spent. For the language though, I am not sure. Even Air Canada got fined a few times because they did not respect bilingualism.
- honkdaddy 4y ago
  To your last point, are most American shows aired in Quebec translated into Quebecois French? I’m from Ontario and had no idea, I always assumed they watched the France version. That’s very fascinating!
  - hervature 4y ago
    Actually, media is probably the only thing that wouldn't change because there are explicit English and French channels and the French channels probably pay for the translations themselves. I meant for all the signage of products like nutrition labels and product descriptions. It would be like saying "aluminum foil" instead of "aluminium foil" which is literally nothing. Except, these people separated for the explicit reason to product "aluminium foil". Right now, companies redesign their entire packaging for Canada as a whole to include both official languages (as it is a requirement) and the marginal price of doing the Canadian French translation is minuscule. If Quebec separated, I think they would either receive the Canadian version or the French (from France) version. In either case, the only thing they've done is removed themselves from having any influence on their language. The other possibility is I suppose companies would get around to the Quebec version (if required) after Hungary and Israel. I'm not sure separatists understand what that would mean.

johnasmith 4y ago

I'm Québécois from birth (Trois Rivières). I voted in the incredibly close '95 seperation referendum. In my view, separation or sovereignty would be bad for us. Separation is mainly predicated on the idea that Québécois are culturally distinct from the rest of Canada, and that our values would be better represented independently. We mostly speak French, and the rest of Canada is predominantly anglo (my New Brunswick Acadian mother in law would have me point out New Brunswick is officially bilingual and has many Francophones). Separatists would argue that there are substantively deeper differences, but having lived abroad in several countries over a decade and returned, any differences seem to me razor thin. We have vastly more in common than separates us. Breaking from Canada to underline these minor differences would come at a tremendous cost. But creating a movement around identity is easy. So every now and again separatist ideas gather steam. We'll pay through the nose for a Québécois Nation and be no better off for it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Quebec_referendum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Quebec_referendum

bigDinosaur 4y ago
What powers does Quebec want that it doesn't actually have?
- bregma 4y ago
  It's not about power. It's about purity. The hardcore members of the independence movement bandies about what translates as "the pure wool". Today, their arguments are referred to elsewhere as "the great replacement theory".
  - jpambrun 4y ago
    If those hardcore exist, they represent a very small minority.
    - bregma 4y ago
      A small minority that would have won independence if it weren't for the money and the ethnic vote [0]. Nevertheless they've been able to circle the wagons [1]. [0] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jacques_Parizeau https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jacques_Parizeau [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_respecting_the_laicity_of_the_State https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_respecting_the_laicity_of_...

IIAOPSW 4y ago

Even more interesting, if it went through the Western half of Canada would effectively be cut off from the bulk of the countries population and economic centers. For this reason, the Governor of Alberta at the time had planned to cede to the US had the referendum been a success. At that point there probably would have been something of a domino effect, with the other Western provinces doing the same.

voisin 4y ago
> if it went through the Western half of Canada would effectively be cut off from the bulk of the countries population and economic centers. What? Quebec is east of Ontario, so the entire west of Canada is still connected to Ontario by land. Only lightly populated, economically minuscule (but gorgeous) eastern provinces would be cut off. > For this reason, the Governor of Alberta at the time had planned to cede to the US had the referendum been a success. Premiere of Alberta. Albertans threaten this regularly when one or another of their extractive projects doesn’t get approved.
swottler 4y ago
Could you clarify? Wouldn't this only cut Newfoundland and Labrador off from the rest of Canada? Can't see how this would affect Western Canada's access to the population/economic centre which is basically just Ontario, and to a lesser degree BC and Alberta itself. (Excepting Quebec, which I guess all of Canada would be cut off from to the same degree in this scenario).
- ncphillips 4y ago
  There’s 3 other provinces east of Quebec
  - hinoki 4y ago
    Newfoundland and Labrador Nova Scotia New Brunswick Prince Edward Island
- IIAOPSW 4y ago

silvereau 4y ago

kergonath 4y ago
Because someone posted it, and others upvoted it. Do you even know how HN works?

silvereau 4y ago

Why is this even in hacker news?

darthcloud 4y ago

Anyone interested in this subject should watch Radio-Canada/CBC excellent documentary Breaking Point part [1] & part [2]. It make a good job of showing both side motivation in the 95 referendum and also the international politics in trying to get France to recognize a Yes vote. [1] https://youtu.be/Fl7lOundk4Y https://youtu.be/Fl7lOundk4Y [2] https://youtu.be/nnF46gRSPig https://youtu.be/nnF46gRSPig

qwedf 4y ago

The only reason I see this relevant to HN is because lots of tech companies have been opening Montreal offices over the past 20 years. We have 4 universities and most educated people are bilingual in spite of the officialdom. However the drumbeats of separatism are banging again [1], so might be relevant considering what happened to the Montreal economy the last times these idiots were allowed to lead by their inferiority complex. Background: Native Montrealer, proud Canadian-Italian whose ancestors built the city, and have watched it decay over the past 40 years due to paternalistic and policies and a system of government that prioritizes the opinions of the "Les régions" over Montreal (it's like if voters in the Georgia countryside fully dictated how Atlanta operates) What Quebec nationalism has resulted in: -Literal language police (see: pastagate [2] - this stupidity had been doubled down on) -Codification of racism and suppression that also increases the burden on businesses (see: Bill 21 and Bill 96) [3,4] -Blatant disregard for the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (the "notwithstanding clause") [5] -Montreal was the most diverse, vibrant city in Canada, truly a global capital - this movement handed that directly to Toronto -Montreal was the financial and tech capital of Canada - this movement handed that directly to Toronto [1] https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/mobile/video?clipId=1831353 https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/mobile/video?clipId=1831353 [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastagate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastagate [3] https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/what-bill-21-means-for-my-children-a-hard-lesson-1.5086538 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/what-bill-21-means-f... [4] https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/language-law-bill-96-adopted-promising-sweeping-changes-for-quebec-1.5916503 https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/language-law-bill-96-adopted-pro... [5] https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/mobile/what-is-the-notwithstanding-clause-again-1.5423223 https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/mobile/what-is-the-notwithstandi...

rayiner 4y ago
I don’t see anything about “racism” in 3 and 4. The first is about excluding religious symbols from public, which is what France does, and is an extremely left-wing notion. Certainly not what folks in “Georgia” would do. And the second is about mandatory French education. Explain to me where the “racism” is.
- realusername 4y ago

GnarfGnarf 4y ago

As a Québecois, I have a theory about séparatisme: it is a clever ploy to get both levels of government to pander to Québec. The Federal and Provincial governments are always trying to outdo each other with concessions, largesse and favourable treatment. Québec should not separate because the Sûreté du Québec (Provincial Police) are voyous (bums). Personally I would not want to live in a land where I could not call the Rocky Mountains mine.

jpambrun 4y ago
Have you ever been to the rockys? I have herd this argument before.. I really can't understand it..
- GnarfGnarf 4y ago
  Well yes... I have been to the Rockies. That's why I am proud of them. I lived three years in Alberta. I skied at Fortress, Sunshine, hills so long they cross provinces. The mountains are magnificent, awe-inspiring. I now live in the Maritimes. Stan Rogers' Mary Ellen Carter is one of the greatest songs ever written :o)

incomingpain 4y ago

Quebec is represented by the CAQ at provincial level who are nationalist/separatist. Bloc at federal level who are also separatists. Quebec quite clearly wants to separate. Technically speaking if we were to have a nationwide referendum on 'should canada kick quebec to the curb' it would be overwhelmingly in favour of throwing quebec out. So what's going on? If you go back 75 years. Quebec due to the language barrier has economic isolation. This makes them quite poor. Quebec has traditionally been very poor compared to the rest of the continent. To 'help', on average Quebec receives 40-75 billion more than they pay in taxes. More importantly, lets say Quebec separates. Quebec is so screwed. They will be short so much money they effectively would be immediately forced to close all of their schools including post-secondary. AND immediately close all public healthcare. That's how much money Quebec would have to raise in taxes just to break even after losing Canada. Then they have to go further. What you think you dont need a military? Quebec has no trade agreements or alliances. They basically have to more than double their tax burden. I wonder if the people of Quebec feel like they are heavily undertaxed?

RcouF1uZ4gsC 4y ago
> What you think you dont need a military? Actually they wouldn’t. There is no way in hell that the US allows a foreign power to attack Quebec. That area is too strategically sensitive to the US.
jpambrun 4y ago
Your premise is false. CAQ is not separatist and bloc has barely any representative. Seperation is at a all time low. The level of transfer payment is closer to 10b than 75b.. What sort of BS do you believe in the ROC??
- incomingpain 4y ago
  >CAQ is not separatist and bloc has barely any representative. Seperation is at a all time low. I do understand legault has said he's not separatist. Actions > words. Quebec Liberals have been quite vocal that the CAQ are separatists. As an objective ontario person I say the CAQ are separatist. Let's not even bring up Trudeau and western alienation. In terms of Bloc representation. They have what 50% of the seats in Quebec. Sure sounds like representation to me. Though yes I do agree separatism is quite low, but that seems to have far more to do with the reality that Quebec becomes poor. >The level of transfer payment is closer to 10b than 75b.. If you're looking solely at 'equalization payments' it's around $13 billion. That's not the only money going to Quebec. Canada Health Transfer is another $10B to Quebec. Canada social transfer is another $3B to quebec. There's $26 billion in straight up $ transfers. Now you also have to look at other federal expenditures. Quebec pays X$/year in taxes but the fed pays for lots of things within Quebec. CBSA, Military, etc. The lowest it has ever been is about $20billion in net difference. That is to say, Canadians paying Quebec $20 billion on top of that $26 billion. Canadians have been giving Quebec a ton of money for decades and it's also getting worse. Though the table that I use hasn't been updated because of covid. So I don't know what this years' data looks like. Fundamentally Quebec is basically incapable of separating.

zppln 4y ago

I read Infinite Jest a few years ago but thought that Les Assassins des Fauteuils Rollents was just an absurdity...

lemonlimes 4y ago

Full disclosure, I am a Quebecker who is against separation. A lot of the debate is around the protection of the French language, which gets stretched out in every political issue. One thing which wasn't mentioned is how unique Quebec's position is geographically. There are few regions which are as surrounded by another dominant language. I think just this phenomenon puts pressure on conserving the French language. I also believe that this makes us stick out like a sore thumb in North America. I will regularly see comment sections riddled with ill informed negative comments about Quebec. Another thing to keep in mind is that in our history, English colonial forces tried to assimilate French people on a few occasions (search for "Durham Report" as an example). I do believe that a lot of trauma has been passed on through generations. Finally, I believe the Federal government doesn't do enough for French speakers inside and outside Quebec. As a result, the separatist movement gives a voice to French people who feel unheard. This just results in political and cultural tensions. While we debate this issue, the people who benefit the least are indigenous people. Their case is politicized on both sides and legislations rarely benefit them.

thejackgoode 4y ago

Interesting fact about how slowly things change. I drank a weissbier from Munich yesterday, and French language section on the can included instructions for Quebec explicitly. English one for Canada had instructions in both English and French https://ibb.co/Sr9mXC3 https://ibb.co/Sr9mXC3