4 ms·

may be the "finance" portion is leading you astray. Torrents work fine today, as a peer to peer tech. I think there's value in peer to peer, and the killer app

by chii 4y ago

may be the "finance" portion is leading you astray. Torrents work fine today, as a peer to peer tech. I think there's value in peer to peer, and the killer app for such a crypto chain is not yet found today. Finance just happens to be the first application of the blockchain tech (and as you can obviously see, it's a failure). The same reasoning can be made for the internet - initially, the internet was used as a "document" viewer. But after the crash of 2000, and slowly as the tech improved (computers and browsers got faster), the web has grown to become an application platform (much to my dismay of course). The original inventors of the internet never intended it to be an application platform. I would argue that the block chain tech is going to go thru a similar phase.

gregopet 4y ago
I am looking at this from the tech viewpoint, I'm a systems architect. Blockchain is garbage tech, useful mostly for unregulated gambling (because there isn't a central point you can squeeze). For practically all legitimate use cases it is utterly useless. And don't just trust me - where are all the cool blockchain apps almost 15 years later? Beside the Web 3 bull** marketing hype, there is nothing. Even the IBMs & Microsofts who tried to make money selling shovels in a goldrush are winding down their blockchain operations. The music is about to stop (the crypto gambling perhaps not so soon as it's, well, addictive)
- miracle2k 4y ago
  > I'm a systems architect. Blockchain is garbage tech The goal is to build a permissionless and censorship-resistent financial network. This has been going extremely well. People referencing their engineering credentials and arguing that the "tech is garbage" always have lots of opinions on the usefulness of such a permissionless and censorship-resistent financial network (not a tech question), but are notably silent as to which technical decisions where incorrect, and what the correct ones are. The latter is key, because unless there is a better way to build for the desired goal, there is no tech-deficiency here. And to put the timeline into context: Note that AMMs like Uniswap, a key infrastructure innovation in the space, are about 4 years old - before this, it was basically impossible to exchange two tokens in a decentralized way. Other key pieces like cross-chain communication systems and rollups are still being built.
  - addicted 4y ago
    > The goal is to build a permissionless and censorship-resistent financial network. How is this even close to true. There are multiple exchanges right now that have locked up people’s money and don’t allow them to access it. Cryptocurrency is banned in China and is basically inactive there. How did it evade censorship? To the extent it’s “censorship proof” in some areas right now is because the censoring entities simply don’t give a shit about it. Governments that have tried to stop it have found it beyond easy to do so. There are no stories of governments that have tried to control crypto and have failed to do so. For the obvious reason that crypto is much harder for someone living under an authoritarian regime to get into than just holding US dollars. I can physically buy US dollars from tourists visiting my country. How do I get Bitcoin? And how do I maintain that Bitcoin. Never mind actually using it…I can give someone else USD without them having to have done any work…but to receive crypto for me, that individual needs to have gone through the same illegal process to setup a crypto account that I have. USD requires only 1 side to have gone through a much easier process to acquire it. Whereas crypto requires both sides to go through it. And it also requires protecting a digital key and internet access to certain sites while your internet is being monitored. I can stick USD under my mattress and carry it in my pocket to someone else’s apartment and then they can stick it under their mattress without even the most repressive govt noticing. The same cannot be said for crypto.
    - miracle2k 4y ago
      None of your points are technical critiques. Sufficiently restrictive governments have had little trouble enforcing bans against end to end encryption or enforcing internet restrictions for the vast majority of the population either. Computer code will never protect you from a bullet to the head. The lesson here is that technological solutions are not a replacement for politics and real-world power struggles. They can however be a tool. > How is this even close to true. There are multiple exchanges right now that have locked up people’s money and don’t allow them to access it. There is nothing wrong with the existence of custodied services, but - give your money to someone else and you are relying on them (and the legal system) to get it back. So what? > Cryptocurrency is banned in China and is basically inactive there. How did it evade censorship? > To the extent it’s “censorship proof” in some areas right now is because the censoring entities simply don’t give a shit about it. It is guaranteed that there are Chinese citizens holding and transacting in crypto everyday. To confiscate these assets or to block these transactions poses certain challenges to authorities. This is what the decidedly non-garbage tech ensures. It is also challenging to find individuals who have USD under their mattress, which is why cash is extremely useful and civil libertarians should fight for its survival. > USD requires only 1 side to have gone through a much easier process to acquire it. Whereas crypto requires both sides to go through it. Note that this is not correct. Wallet-creation is not a physical action; a wallet is merely a sufficiently random number you pick for yourself, in your head if necessary.
MattPalmer1086 4y ago
I don't see how you can separate finance from Blockchain. Miners have expenses, how will they be paid to secure the chain? David Rosenthal argues it better here: https://blog.dshr.org/2022/06/you-cant-have-one-without-other.html?m=1 https://blog.dshr.org/2022/06/you-cant-have-one-without-othe...
whatisweb3 4y ago
What makes finance a failure here? Blockchains are still facilitating billions of dollars in volume per day across financial applications - DeFi - even with the drawdown. The projects collapsing are not using transparent blockchains or smart contracts, they are using centralized promises and opaque mechanisms, basically CeFi.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  And how much of this volume does something useful? Volume for sake of volume or market cap for sake of market cap isn't practically very useful. Finance exist to facilitate actual commerce. That is trading physical goods, services and immaterial goods. Just having volume in financial applications for sake of those applications is not something you can eat...
  - whatisweb3 4y ago
    Tell this to the stock market? Or any other form of finance that isn’t strictly focused on buying an apple from your local grocer? You can move money across the world, take loans or lend assets, place investments, manage funds, deposit into escrow, do peer to peer exchange of assets across a range of stability and fungibility, donate immediately and anonymously to nonprofits, setup auctions and crowdfunds. These are useful financial tools, and still working fine in DeFi even after prices crash. You can also do many of these things in tradfi and CeFi in some countries, but without the “De” part, decentralization. I am curious - have you tried DeFi?
anonu 4y ago
Torrents would be useless without centralized trackers.

by chii 4y ago

gregopet 4y ago

I am looking at this from the tech viewpoint, I'm a systems architect. Blockchain is garbage tech, useful mostly for unregulated gambling (because there isn't a central point you can squeeze). For practically all legitimate use cases it is utterly useless. And don't just trust me - where are all the cool blockchain apps almost 15 years later? Beside the Web 3 bull** marketing hype, there is nothing. Even the IBMs & Microsofts who tried to make money selling shovels in a goldrush are winding down their blockchain operations. The music is about to stop (the crypto gambling perhaps not so soon as it's, well, addictive)

miracle2k 4y ago
> I'm a systems architect. Blockchain is garbage tech The goal is to build a permissionless and censorship-resistent financial network. This has been going extremely well. People referencing their engineering credentials and arguing that the "tech is garbage" always have lots of opinions on the usefulness of such a permissionless and censorship-resistent financial network (not a tech question), but are notably silent as to which technical decisions where incorrect, and what the correct ones are. The latter is key, because unless there is a better way to build for the desired goal, there is no tech-deficiency here. And to put the timeline into context: Note that AMMs like Uniswap, a key infrastructure innovation in the space, are about 4 years old - before this, it was basically impossible to exchange two tokens in a decentralized way. Other key pieces like cross-chain communication systems and rollups are still being built.
- addicted 4y ago
  > The goal is to build a permissionless and censorship-resistent financial network. How is this even close to true. There are multiple exchanges right now that have locked up people’s money and don’t allow them to access it. Cryptocurrency is banned in China and is basically inactive there. How did it evade censorship? To the extent it’s “censorship proof” in some areas right now is because the censoring entities simply don’t give a shit about it. Governments that have tried to stop it have found it beyond easy to do so. There are no stories of governments that have tried to control crypto and have failed to do so. For the obvious reason that crypto is much harder for someone living under an authoritarian regime to get into than just holding US dollars. I can physically buy US dollars from tourists visiting my country. How do I get Bitcoin? And how do I maintain that Bitcoin. Never mind actually using it…I can give someone else USD without them having to have done any work…but to receive crypto for me, that individual needs to have gone through the same illegal process to setup a crypto account that I have. USD requires only 1 side to have gone through a much easier process to acquire it. Whereas crypto requires both sides to go through it. And it also requires protecting a digital key and internet access to certain sites while your internet is being monitored. I can stick USD under my mattress and carry it in my pocket to someone else’s apartment and then they can stick it under their mattress without even the most repressive govt noticing. The same cannot be said for crypto.
  - miracle2k 4y ago
    None of your points are technical critiques. Sufficiently restrictive governments have had little trouble enforcing bans against end to end encryption or enforcing internet restrictions for the vast majority of the population either. Computer code will never protect you from a bullet to the head. The lesson here is that technological solutions are not a replacement for politics and real-world power struggles. They can however be a tool. > How is this even close to true. There are multiple exchanges right now that have locked up people’s money and don’t allow them to access it. There is nothing wrong with the existence of custodied services, but - give your money to someone else and you are relying on them (and the legal system) to get it back. So what? > Cryptocurrency is banned in China and is basically inactive there. How did it evade censorship? > To the extent it’s “censorship proof” in some areas right now is because the censoring entities simply don’t give a shit about it. It is guaranteed that there are Chinese citizens holding and transacting in crypto everyday. To confiscate these assets or to block these transactions poses certain challenges to authorities. This is what the decidedly non-garbage tech ensures. It is also challenging to find individuals who have USD under their mattress, which is why cash is extremely useful and civil libertarians should fight for its survival. > USD requires only 1 side to have gone through a much easier process to acquire it. Whereas crypto requires both sides to go through it. Note that this is not correct. Wallet-creation is not a physical action; a wallet is merely a sufficiently random number you pick for yourself, in your head if necessary.

MattPalmer1086 4y ago

I don't see how you can separate finance from Blockchain. Miners have expenses, how will they be paid to secure the chain? David Rosenthal argues it better here: https://blog.dshr.org/2022/06/you-cant-have-one-without-other.html?m=1 https://blog.dshr.org/2022/06/you-cant-have-one-without-othe...

whatisweb3 4y ago

What makes finance a failure here? Blockchains are still facilitating billions of dollars in volume per day across financial applications - DeFi - even with the drawdown. The projects collapsing are not using transparent blockchains or smart contracts, they are using centralized promises and opaque mechanisms, basically CeFi.

Ekaros 4y ago
And how much of this volume does something useful? Volume for sake of volume or market cap for sake of market cap isn't practically very useful. Finance exist to facilitate actual commerce. That is trading physical goods, services and immaterial goods. Just having volume in financial applications for sake of those applications is not something you can eat...
- whatisweb3 4y ago
  Tell this to the stock market? Or any other form of finance that isn’t strictly focused on buying an apple from your local grocer? You can move money across the world, take loans or lend assets, place investments, manage funds, deposit into escrow, do peer to peer exchange of assets across a range of stability and fungibility, donate immediately and anonymously to nonprofits, setup auctions and crowdfunds. These are useful financial tools, and still working fine in DeFi even after prices crash. You can also do many of these things in tradfi and CeFi in some countries, but without the “De” part, decentralization. I am curious - have you tried DeFi?

anonu 4y ago

Torrents would be useless without centralized trackers.