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I would love to see proof of this, if it’s so rampant where is the hard evidence? He said she said isn’t all that convincing coming from fired employees

taco_philips 4y ago
kadoban 4y ago
> About half of the plaintiffs were either fired or quit, while the rest still work at Tesla. I guess it should be at least halfway convincing to you then.
taco_philips 4y ago
dragonwriter 4y ago
The proof of this is that even Tesla's own PR after both the individual racial discrimination jury trial it lost and the large racial discrimination action filed by the California DFEH has focussed on how the former was about 2015-2016 and the latter 2015-2019 and claiming it had gotten better and faced no current accusations.
- hnuaer 4y ago
- extheat 4y ago
  The standard for civil cases is low compared to a criminal trial where someone has to present a case of intent beyond a reasonable doubt. Suggesting that there's orders from the company top to engage in racism is absurd and requires evidence. So far, as far as we are aware, it's a game of he-said-she-said between employees/supervisors. Tesla cannot blanket deny that the harassment didn't happen, but they can deny giving any such instruction to promote it. The court determined that regardless of the employees ultimately responsible for the harassment, Tesla was on the hook for paying them for the behavior. "Not doing enough" is a completely subjective measure.
  - socialdemocrat 4y ago
    The suggestion is not that Tesla promotes racism, but that they turn a blind eye to it and ignores rampant occurrence of it. Even firing the people who complain.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > The standard for civil cases is low compared to a criminal trial where someone has to present a case of intent beyond a reasonable doubt. Criminal trials don't need to prove intent at all unless it happens to be an intent crime, and in any case commercial racism isn't a crime so...I’m not sure why were are bringing up criminal burdens of proof at all. The civil standard is preponderance of the evidence, that is what is more likely than not true based on the evidence presented. > Suggesting that there's orders from the company top to engage in racism is absurd and requires evidence. “standard operating procedure” here is a synonym of “routine practice” not “orders from the company too”; the only thing alleged about the “company top” is that “done little to nothing to reasonably prevent or stop this toxic behavior and work environment”. And, yes lawsuits require evidence and if this isn't dropped or settled before trial, there will be evidence presented and a ruling on the evidence just as the case with the other race discrimination case which Tesla lost, based on the evidence. > Tesla cannot blanket deny that the harassment didn't happen, but they can deny giving any such instruction to promote it. Then Tesla is in trouble, since they are legally responsible for preventing racial harassment and other forms of race discrimination from happening in the workplace, not just for not commanding it. > The court determined that regardless of the employees ultimately responsible for the harassment, Tesla was on the hook for paying them for the behavior. I'm not sure what you are talking about. The court hasn't determined anything, the lawsuit was just filed. And while it is true that there is some liability for harassment by any coworker, it does very much depend on the working context and who the employees doing the harassment are what the standards are, and Tesla's exposure is highest when (as in the newly filed lawsuit) the harassment and discrimination are by supervisors and managers to their subordinates.
fleetwoodsnack 4y ago
Sworn testimony is evidence under the law.
- hnuaer 4y ago
comorbidlyobese 4y ago
From the article: "Tesla's treatment of Black employees was previously highlighted in a federal lawsuit filed by former employee Owen Diaz, who was awarded $137 million by a jury. After the jury trial, a federal judge rejected Tesla's claim that it is not liable for the "disturbing" racist abuse Diaz suffered but reduced the award to $15 million."
086523 4y ago
socialdemocrat 4y ago
More convincing when multiple employees are giving similar account. Also given that these complaints have happened over a longer time, and Tesla has had many problems with employees. When Tesla has some many problems one cannot just keep blaming employees, because somehow Elon Musk is an infallible hero. Elon Musk is an extremely smart and talented person, but that does not guarantee that his moral compass is in working order. While loudly talking about the importance of free speech, he quickly fired employees criticizing his use of social media. "Do as I say, not as I do", in other words. He fired his long term assistant for simply asking for a raise after 12 years. She had gone above and beyond. He berated his wife constantly for not living up to his standards and demands. She said: "I am not your employee" to which he replied: "If you were I would have fired you!" Elons Musk despite his brilliance obviously has issues with how he treats people. That Tesla has the problems described is sadly quite plausible given his past behavior in some many different contexts.

taco_philips 4y ago

kadoban 4y ago

> About half of the plaintiffs were either fired or quit, while the rest still work at Tesla. I guess it should be at least halfway convincing to you then.

taco_philips 4y ago

dragonwriter 4y ago

The proof of this is that even Tesla's own PR after both the individual racial discrimination jury trial it lost and the large racial discrimination action filed by the California DFEH has focussed on how the former was about 2015-2016 and the latter 2015-2019 and claiming it had gotten better and faced no current accusations.

hnuaer 4y ago
extheat 4y ago
The standard for civil cases is low compared to a criminal trial where someone has to present a case of intent beyond a reasonable doubt. Suggesting that there's orders from the company top to engage in racism is absurd and requires evidence. So far, as far as we are aware, it's a game of he-said-she-said between employees/supervisors. Tesla cannot blanket deny that the harassment didn't happen, but they can deny giving any such instruction to promote it. The court determined that regardless of the employees ultimately responsible for the harassment, Tesla was on the hook for paying them for the behavior. "Not doing enough" is a completely subjective measure.
- socialdemocrat 4y ago
  The suggestion is not that Tesla promotes racism, but that they turn a blind eye to it and ignores rampant occurrence of it. Even firing the people who complain.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > The standard for civil cases is low compared to a criminal trial where someone has to present a case of intent beyond a reasonable doubt. Criminal trials don't need to prove intent at all unless it happens to be an intent crime, and in any case commercial racism isn't a crime so...I’m not sure why were are bringing up criminal burdens of proof at all. The civil standard is preponderance of the evidence, that is what is more likely than not true based on the evidence presented. > Suggesting that there's orders from the company top to engage in racism is absurd and requires evidence. “standard operating procedure” here is a synonym of “routine practice” not “orders from the company too”; the only thing alleged about the “company top” is that “done little to nothing to reasonably prevent or stop this toxic behavior and work environment”. And, yes lawsuits require evidence and if this isn't dropped or settled before trial, there will be evidence presented and a ruling on the evidence just as the case with the other race discrimination case which Tesla lost, based on the evidence. > Tesla cannot blanket deny that the harassment didn't happen, but they can deny giving any such instruction to promote it. Then Tesla is in trouble, since they are legally responsible for preventing racial harassment and other forms of race discrimination from happening in the workplace, not just for not commanding it. > The court determined that regardless of the employees ultimately responsible for the harassment, Tesla was on the hook for paying them for the behavior. I'm not sure what you are talking about. The court hasn't determined anything, the lawsuit was just filed. And while it is true that there is some liability for harassment by any coworker, it does very much depend on the working context and who the employees doing the harassment are what the standards are, and Tesla's exposure is highest when (as in the newly filed lawsuit) the harassment and discrimination are by supervisors and managers to their subordinates.

fleetwoodsnack 4y ago

Sworn testimony is evidence under the law.

hnuaer 4y ago

comorbidlyobese 4y ago

From the article: "Tesla's treatment of Black employees was previously highlighted in a federal lawsuit filed by former employee Owen Diaz, who was awarded $137 million by a jury. After the jury trial, a federal judge rejected Tesla's claim that it is not liable for the "disturbing" racist abuse Diaz suffered but reduced the award to $15 million."

086523 4y ago

socialdemocrat 4y ago

More convincing when multiple employees are giving similar account. Also given that these complaints have happened over a longer time, and Tesla has had many problems with employees. When Tesla has some many problems one cannot just keep blaming employees, because somehow Elon Musk is an infallible hero. Elon Musk is an extremely smart and talented person, but that does not guarantee that his moral compass is in working order. While loudly talking about the importance of free speech, he quickly fired employees criticizing his use of social media. "Do as I say, not as I do", in other words. He fired his long term assistant for simply asking for a raise after 12 years. She had gone above and beyond. He berated his wife constantly for not living up to his standards and demands. She said: "I am not your employee" to which he replied: "If you were I would have fired you!" Elons Musk despite his brilliance obviously has issues with how he treats people. That Tesla has the problems described is sadly quite plausible given his past behavior in some many different contexts.