7 ms·

Lawsuit: At Tesla, racial discrimination is “standard operating procedure”

59 points by arunbahl 4y ago

metadat 4y ago
Seems like Tesla is in need of brand new leadership. I wonder if the board of directors has the guts to do what to needs to be done.
mountainriver 4y ago
I would love to see proof of this, if it’s so rampant where is the hard evidence? He said she said isn’t all that convincing coming from fired employees
- taco_philips 4y ago
- kadoban 4y ago
  > About half of the plaintiffs were either fired or quit, while the rest still work at Tesla. I guess it should be at least halfway convincing to you then.
- taco_philips 4y ago
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  The proof of this is that even Tesla's own PR after both the individual racial discrimination jury trial it lost and the large racial discrimination action filed by the California DFEH has focussed on how the former was about 2015-2016 and the latter 2015-2019 and claiming it had gotten better and faced no current accusations.
  - hnuaer 4y ago
  - extheat 4y ago
    The standard for civil cases is low compared to a criminal trial where someone has to present a case of intent beyond a reasonable doubt. Suggesting that there's orders from the company top to engage in racism is absurd and requires evidence. So far, as far as we are aware, it's a game of he-said-she-said between employees/supervisors. Tesla cannot blanket deny that the harassment didn't happen, but they can deny giving any such instruction to promote it. The court determined that regardless of the employees ultimately responsible for the harassment, Tesla was on the hook for paying them for the behavior. "Not doing enough" is a completely subjective measure.
    - socialdemocrat 4y ago
      The suggestion is not that Tesla promotes racism, but that they turn a blind eye to it and ignores rampant occurrence of it. Even firing the people who complain.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > The standard for civil cases is low compared to a criminal trial where someone has to present a case of intent beyond a reasonable doubt. Criminal trials don't need to prove intent at all unless it happens to be an intent crime, and in any case commercial racism isn't a crime so...I’m not sure why were are bringing up criminal burdens of proof at all. The civil standard is preponderance of the evidence, that is what is more likely than not true based on the evidence presented. > Suggesting that there's orders from the company top to engage in racism is absurd and requires evidence. “standard operating procedure” here is a synonym of “routine practice” not “orders from the company too”; the only thing alleged about the “company top” is that “done little to nothing to reasonably prevent or stop this toxic behavior and work environment”. And, yes lawsuits require evidence and if this isn't dropped or settled before trial, there will be evidence presented and a ruling on the evidence just as the case with the other race discrimination case which Tesla lost, based on the evidence. > Tesla cannot blanket deny that the harassment didn't happen, but they can deny giving any such instruction to promote it. Then Tesla is in trouble, since they are legally responsible for preventing racial harassment and other forms of race discrimination from happening in the workplace, not just for not commanding it. > The court determined that regardless of the employees ultimately responsible for the harassment, Tesla was on the hook for paying them for the behavior. I'm not sure what you are talking about. The court hasn't determined anything, the lawsuit was just filed. And while it is true that there is some liability for harassment by any coworker, it does very much depend on the working context and who the employees doing the harassment are what the standards are, and Tesla's exposure is highest when (as in the newly filed lawsuit) the harassment and discrimination are by supervisors and managers to their subordinates.
- fleetwoodsnack 4y ago
  Sworn testimony is evidence under the law.
  - hnuaer 4y ago
- comorbidlyobese 4y ago
  From the article: "Tesla's treatment of Black employees was previously highlighted in a federal lawsuit filed by former employee Owen Diaz, who was awarded $137 million by a jury. After the jury trial, a federal judge rejected Tesla's claim that it is not liable for the "disturbing" racist abuse Diaz suffered but reduced the award to $15 million."
- 086523 4y ago
- socialdemocrat 4y ago
  More convincing when multiple employees are giving similar account. Also given that these complaints have happened over a longer time, and Tesla has had many problems with employees. When Tesla has some many problems one cannot just keep blaming employees, because somehow Elon Musk is an infallible hero. Elon Musk is an extremely smart and talented person, but that does not guarantee that his moral compass is in working order. While loudly talking about the importance of free speech, he quickly fired employees criticizing his use of social media. "Do as I say, not as I do", in other words. He fired his long term assistant for simply asking for a raise after 12 years. She had gone above and beyond. He berated his wife constantly for not living up to his standards and demands. She said: "I am not your employee" to which he replied: "If you were I would have fired you!" Elons Musk despite his brilliance obviously has issues with how he treats people. That Tesla has the problems described is sadly quite plausible given his past behavior in some many different contexts.
la64710 4y ago
Well what is truly Musk’s attitude towards racial equality? Unfortunately his behavior or silence is only feeding rumors around that.
- _8j50 4y ago
  You can tell a lot about a person based on the company they keep.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- Railsify 4y ago
  His family became wealthy during apartheid, they were beneficiaries of state sponsored racism, I'd say he is at least indifferent to it as long as he is not suffering any consequences.
  - bigmealbigmeal 4y ago
    It's a logical leap to suggest that indirectly benefitting from something means one is indifferent to that thing. We're all beneficiaries of child labour in the third world; it doesn't mean we're all indifferent to it. Most of us at least disapprove. Errol Musk claimed to the New York Times that he belonged to the anti-apartheid Progressive Party at the time. Elon Musk said in his biography that he did not want to partake in South Africa's mandatory military service because it would have forced him to participate in the apartheid regime.[1] I understand that this an emotionally charged issue, and I would never expect the wider public to behave differently, but I'd at least expect this community to engage in more critical thinking -- to not make logical leaps, and to be honest about the facts at hand. We're not going to reverse the world's social progress because the nerds on Hacker News decided to pause for thought. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/05/world/africa/elon-musk-south-africa.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/05/world/africa/elon-musk-so...
    - Railsify 4y ago
_8j50 4y ago
There are multiple lawsuits where Tesla has had similar accusations and the judgement trend has been consistently against their favor. I see a similar trend with Facebook and the like but for different accusations in the EU and elsewhere. These fines are not enough. When awarding them, the company's stock value and net profits should be taken into consideration and inaction or lack of change after the lawsuit should be considered contempt of the court where the CEO is held criminally liable.
- natch 4y ago
  We should at least consider the possibility this is just a bunch of lowlifes trying to cash in with lawsuits on stuff that is sadly routine in many blue collar work settings. Since it's Tesla, it garners headlines, and that helps with the lawsuits. Lawsuits at other blue collar workplaces are boring, so they don't make headlines, don't threaten the companies involved, and go nowhere. It seems Tesla is being targeted for monetary reasons here. Yes the underlying (if true) behavior is bad too. But the number of lawsuits should not be taken to conclude that Tesla has an especially outsized internal problem. Rather, it has an outsized spotlight. None of this is to defend rude behavior in any workplace. But I doubt Tesla is particularly special except for the headlines aspect, which increases the potential viability and thus the number of lawsuits. Of course that means it would behoove them to do more to address any behavior issues. I have no reason to think they are interested in perpetuating such behavior.
  - troutbucket 4y ago
    > We should at least consider the possibility this is just a bunch of lowlifes trying to cash in with lawsuits on stuff that is sadly routine in many blue collar work settings. From the article: "Tesla's treatment of Black employees was previously highlighted in a federal lawsuit filed by former employee Owen Diaz, who was awarded $137 million by a jury. After the jury trial, a federal judge rejected Tesla's claim that it is not liable for the "disturbing" racist abuse Diaz suffered but reduced the award to $15 million."
  - metadat 4y ago
    Racism isn't just "rude". It's morally reprehensible and damaging across many dimensions for individuals and society at large. Even moreso at work, where such attitudes are irrelevant and have no place in furthering the business objectives.
Cypher 4y ago
- 086523 4y ago
yieldcrv 4y ago
> His supervisor, identified as defendant Clinton Doe, "repeatedly made racially discriminatory comments to Gonsalves, stating that Gonsalves 'wasn't like most black people,' that he 'didn't act ghetto,' and further called him a 'zebra' because he was 'neither black nor white.'" this is inspirational as I never thought about sanctioning these kind of derogatory comments, new business model! will be watching how this one goes.
esel2k 4y ago
As long as companies look after brand names (tesla, faceook,) keep beeing seen as a “better place to work” the number of applicants will keep rising. This leads to the fact that people will not speak up or question bad behavior. I have repeatedly seen this where companies and/manager thought they can do whatever they want (discrimination in many forms) because everyone wants to work for them. If anyone has a solution for this imbalance I am glad to hear it.
cosmin800 4y ago
It kind of started when Elon said that he is going to vote with the republicans - full disclouse, I do not like Elon, he crashed bitcoin and crypto many times.
- perfectma 4y ago
  Didn't these start years ago - way before he said that?
  - polski-g 4y ago
    Right after Tesla left California.
magwa101 4y ago

59 points by arunbahl 4y ago

Seems like Tesla is in need of brand new leadership. I wonder if the board of directors has the guts to do what to needs to be done.

mountainriver 4y ago

I would love to see proof of this, if it’s so rampant where is the hard evidence? He said she said isn’t all that convincing coming from fired employees

taco_philips 4y ago
kadoban 4y ago
> About half of the plaintiffs were either fired or quit, while the rest still work at Tesla. I guess it should be at least halfway convincing to you then.
taco_philips 4y ago
dragonwriter 4y ago
The proof of this is that even Tesla's own PR after both the individual racial discrimination jury trial it lost and the large racial discrimination action filed by the California DFEH has focussed on how the former was about 2015-2016 and the latter 2015-2019 and claiming it had gotten better and faced no current accusations.
- hnuaer 4y ago
- extheat 4y ago
  The standard for civil cases is low compared to a criminal trial where someone has to present a case of intent beyond a reasonable doubt. Suggesting that there's orders from the company top to engage in racism is absurd and requires evidence. So far, as far as we are aware, it's a game of he-said-she-said between employees/supervisors. Tesla cannot blanket deny that the harassment didn't happen, but they can deny giving any such instruction to promote it. The court determined that regardless of the employees ultimately responsible for the harassment, Tesla was on the hook for paying them for the behavior. "Not doing enough" is a completely subjective measure.
  - socialdemocrat 4y ago
    The suggestion is not that Tesla promotes racism, but that they turn a blind eye to it and ignores rampant occurrence of it. Even firing the people who complain.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > The standard for civil cases is low compared to a criminal trial where someone has to present a case of intent beyond a reasonable doubt. Criminal trials don't need to prove intent at all unless it happens to be an intent crime, and in any case commercial racism isn't a crime so...I’m not sure why were are bringing up criminal burdens of proof at all. The civil standard is preponderance of the evidence, that is what is more likely than not true based on the evidence presented. > Suggesting that there's orders from the company top to engage in racism is absurd and requires evidence. “standard operating procedure” here is a synonym of “routine practice” not “orders from the company too”; the only thing alleged about the “company top” is that “done little to nothing to reasonably prevent or stop this toxic behavior and work environment”. And, yes lawsuits require evidence and if this isn't dropped or settled before trial, there will be evidence presented and a ruling on the evidence just as the case with the other race discrimination case which Tesla lost, based on the evidence. > Tesla cannot blanket deny that the harassment didn't happen, but they can deny giving any such instruction to promote it. Then Tesla is in trouble, since they are legally responsible for preventing racial harassment and other forms of race discrimination from happening in the workplace, not just for not commanding it. > The court determined that regardless of the employees ultimately responsible for the harassment, Tesla was on the hook for paying them for the behavior. I'm not sure what you are talking about. The court hasn't determined anything, the lawsuit was just filed. And while it is true that there is some liability for harassment by any coworker, it does very much depend on the working context and who the employees doing the harassment are what the standards are, and Tesla's exposure is highest when (as in the newly filed lawsuit) the harassment and discrimination are by supervisors and managers to their subordinates.
fleetwoodsnack 4y ago
Sworn testimony is evidence under the law.
- hnuaer 4y ago
comorbidlyobese 4y ago
From the article: "Tesla's treatment of Black employees was previously highlighted in a federal lawsuit filed by former employee Owen Diaz, who was awarded $137 million by a jury. After the jury trial, a federal judge rejected Tesla's claim that it is not liable for the "disturbing" racist abuse Diaz suffered but reduced the award to $15 million."
086523 4y ago
socialdemocrat 4y ago
More convincing when multiple employees are giving similar account. Also given that these complaints have happened over a longer time, and Tesla has had many problems with employees. When Tesla has some many problems one cannot just keep blaming employees, because somehow Elon Musk is an infallible hero. Elon Musk is an extremely smart and talented person, but that does not guarantee that his moral compass is in working order. While loudly talking about the importance of free speech, he quickly fired employees criticizing his use of social media. "Do as I say, not as I do", in other words. He fired his long term assistant for simply asking for a raise after 12 years. She had gone above and beyond. He berated his wife constantly for not living up to his standards and demands. She said: "I am not your employee" to which he replied: "If you were I would have fired you!" Elons Musk despite his brilliance obviously has issues with how he treats people. That Tesla has the problems described is sadly quite plausible given his past behavior in some many different contexts.

la64710 4y ago

Well what is truly Musk’s attitude towards racial equality? Unfortunately his behavior or silence is only feeding rumors around that.

_8j50 4y ago
You can tell a lot about a person based on the company they keep.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Railsify 4y ago
His family became wealthy during apartheid, they were beneficiaries of state sponsored racism, I'd say he is at least indifferent to it as long as he is not suffering any consequences.
- bigmealbigmeal 4y ago
  It's a logical leap to suggest that indirectly benefitting from something means one is indifferent to that thing. We're all beneficiaries of child labour in the third world; it doesn't mean we're all indifferent to it. Most of us at least disapprove. Errol Musk claimed to the New York Times that he belonged to the anti-apartheid Progressive Party at the time. Elon Musk said in his biography that he did not want to partake in South Africa's mandatory military service because it would have forced him to participate in the apartheid regime.[1] I understand that this an emotionally charged issue, and I would never expect the wider public to behave differently, but I'd at least expect this community to engage in more critical thinking -- to not make logical leaps, and to be honest about the facts at hand. We're not going to reverse the world's social progress because the nerds on Hacker News decided to pause for thought. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/05/world/africa/elon-musk-south-africa.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/05/world/africa/elon-musk-so...
  - Railsify 4y ago

_8j50 4y ago

There are multiple lawsuits where Tesla has had similar accusations and the judgement trend has been consistently against their favor. I see a similar trend with Facebook and the like but for different accusations in the EU and elsewhere. These fines are not enough. When awarding them, the company's stock value and net profits should be taken into consideration and inaction or lack of change after the lawsuit should be considered contempt of the court where the CEO is held criminally liable.

natch 4y ago
We should at least consider the possibility this is just a bunch of lowlifes trying to cash in with lawsuits on stuff that is sadly routine in many blue collar work settings. Since it's Tesla, it garners headlines, and that helps with the lawsuits. Lawsuits at other blue collar workplaces are boring, so they don't make headlines, don't threaten the companies involved, and go nowhere. It seems Tesla is being targeted for monetary reasons here. Yes the underlying (if true) behavior is bad too. But the number of lawsuits should not be taken to conclude that Tesla has an especially outsized internal problem. Rather, it has an outsized spotlight. None of this is to defend rude behavior in any workplace. But I doubt Tesla is particularly special except for the headlines aspect, which increases the potential viability and thus the number of lawsuits. Of course that means it would behoove them to do more to address any behavior issues. I have no reason to think they are interested in perpetuating such behavior.
- troutbucket 4y ago
  > We should at least consider the possibility this is just a bunch of lowlifes trying to cash in with lawsuits on stuff that is sadly routine in many blue collar work settings. From the article: "Tesla's treatment of Black employees was previously highlighted in a federal lawsuit filed by former employee Owen Diaz, who was awarded $137 million by a jury. After the jury trial, a federal judge rejected Tesla's claim that it is not liable for the "disturbing" racist abuse Diaz suffered but reduced the award to $15 million."
- metadat 4y ago
  Racism isn't just "rude". It's morally reprehensible and damaging across many dimensions for individuals and society at large. Even moreso at work, where such attitudes are irrelevant and have no place in furthering the business objectives.

Cypher 4y ago

086523 4y ago

yieldcrv 4y ago

> His supervisor, identified as defendant Clinton Doe, "repeatedly made racially discriminatory comments to Gonsalves, stating that Gonsalves 'wasn't like most black people,' that he 'didn't act ghetto,' and further called him a 'zebra' because he was 'neither black nor white.'" this is inspirational as I never thought about sanctioning these kind of derogatory comments, new business model! will be watching how this one goes.

esel2k 4y ago

As long as companies look after brand names (tesla, faceook,) keep beeing seen as a “better place to work” the number of applicants will keep rising. This leads to the fact that people will not speak up or question bad behavior. I have repeatedly seen this where companies and/manager thought they can do whatever they want (discrimination in many forms) because everyone wants to work for them. If anyone has a solution for this imbalance I am glad to hear it.

cosmin800 4y ago

It kind of started when Elon said that he is going to vote with the republicans - full disclouse, I do not like Elon, he crashed bitcoin and crypto many times.

perfectma 4y ago
Didn't these start years ago - way before he said that?
- polski-g 4y ago
  Right after Tesla left California.

magwa101 4y ago