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Ask HN: Is it a strength that HN's UI has not changed over many years?
I find myself lately gravitating back to older communities that survived the social media wave on the Internet because they seem to be a bit better at keeping track and promoting visibility of meaningful conversations, despite traditional functional flaws, screen sizing, and often dreadful large threaded views. I think a major strength is that most of these traditionally designed sites/apps still emphasize chronological order for content and posts, which makes the experience less prone to manipulation and more timely.
It also seems with older sites like HN and online bulletin boards, content can be bookmarked, and it's easier to correspond with users on a more regular basis. I think the most frustrating trend on modern sites and apps is that content I want to see simply disappears into a sea of other things I don't want to see, and that searching to find that content is futile, as results are often gamified and spammed into oblivion.
I miss IRC now, I miss bulletin boards despite all the flaws, I miss old school web sites that had the same content in the same place even after hitting refresh.
In my opinion, traditionally highly effective, favorable, and functional user-experience-based design has been thrown out the window lately as a trend; apps now are very often geared towards tracking, sponsored post placement, and profit/revenue optimization goals, rather than towards creating favorable user experiences.
It makes me wonder (despite some issues of course) if HN is still one of the best places to communicate and post serious matters BECAUSE it's UI/UX hasn't changed (In major ways) for many years?
- bckr 4y agoWhy break what ain't fixed.
- cehrlich 4y agoIt's a bit annoying to use on phones but I think that might actually be a (completely unintentional) advantage.
- kaffeeringe 4y agoThere are several good apps.
- iamdamian 4y agoTrue, but do any of them let you log in without giving over your password? (I don’t think that HN supports OAuth, but I’ve also never really looked into it.)
- winternett 4y agoI'm just happy they haven't joined the TFA circle of pain yet... That's usually the point where I just give up on logging in to social-based sites/apps.
- Cyberdog 4y agoYes, the phone experience suffers. I wouldn't call it an advantage, especially since the worst problems (itty bitty upvote/downvote buttons, for example) could be fixed with maybe just a couple hours of CSS tweaking. But as a whole, and particularly on desktop, the signal-to-noise ratio for this site is so high that it naturally attracts a certain type of technologically-conservative, nonsense-resistant developer, I think.
- mostlysimilar 4y agoI agree that it’s an advantage. It’s a form of quality control.
- danpalmer 4y agoIs it a strength that it looks the same and has the same core functionality? Yes. The site is fast, using it is fast, the information is clear. It performs the function it sets out to perform very well. Is it a strength that the feature set (mostly) hasn't changed? Yes and no. It's mostly a good feature set for me, but I know plenty of people who don't use HN, and who could potentially be in the target market. HN does not need to grow, but the realities of business is that most companies do need to (HN obviously not a company itself), and so it is generally good for new users that features are changing in order to grow as the product is theoretically more applicable to them. There's another aspect that you touch on with the algorithmic timeline argument. Services we use are becoming smarter, and for the most part people like this. Search is a good example of this, HN's search is basic keyword-based search, and I find it practically unusable because I don't always know the right keywords. A significantly smarter version, of the calibre that FAANG style companies could put out, would be great! Of course it would take more effort than it's worth for this user base to create it because investment like that only makes sense at scale.
- Cyberdog 4y ago> Search is a good example of this, HN's search is basic keyword-based search, and I find it practically unusable because I don't always know the right keywords. A significantly smarter version, of the calibre that FAANG style companies could put out, would be great! Of course it would take more effort than it's worth for this user base to create it because investment like that only makes sense at scale. Elasticsearch would be a good fit for this, and it's such a delight to use, once you understand how it works. Just tweak some parameters, and you get a fast search engine with immensely useful features like stemming, parameter ranking, and so on. It's one of those things that I love to use on client sites because it makes me look like more of a genius than I really am.
- tpxl 4y agoElasticsearch is absolute garbage for text search such as articles or comments. Text contains 'foocompany.com', and you search for 'company.com'? No results. It also tends to ignore punctuation (not sure whether this is configurable or not). Please let me keep simple word search.
- Cyberdog 4y ago> I miss IRC now, I miss bulletin boards despite all the flaws, I miss old school web sites that had the same content in the same place even after hitting refresh. Why miss them? They all still exist. I constantly have my IRC client open and connected to about two dozen channels on Libera (only about five that I actively monitor). Non-Reddit forums for various topics exist too, though, granted, not quite in the quantity that they used to.
- shmoe 4y agoNostalgia of course. I often reminisce about the good ole days too.
- winternett 4y agoAhh, the good old days... When you'd refresh a page and stuff came right back in the same spot... lol
- winternett 4y agoIRC has shrunken dramatically in popularity now, the user base is a bit limited and topics of discussion are often narrow in focus. I think that's part of what I'm referring to with that as well. A dating app that starts with some form of topical (text based open group chat) IRC feature (shot text posts) would likely be a wise move in this current day and time... Or even a twitter clone based on dating profiles... hrmmm.... :P
- rr888 4y agoAre there stats on PC vs mobile for HN? I expect its much higher than most other social media and this format is great on a proper screen.
- aristofun 4y agoNobody really cares about UI as long as the moderation (and => content) is amazing.
- johannes1234321 4y agopeople do care. However HN's interface has qhite a few qualities: - it is fast! Fast UI is inportant for people nkt bring annkyed. - it only uses a small set of "dynamic" features, like when upvoting, it does what is needed to show the change but not more - the interface is not in the way, not overloaded, ... It isn't great on mobile, but way better than many sites who try to grab your attention all the time
- aristofun 4y agoNope. Most people don’t. People often _declare_ they care. But rarely support it with money or actions. Would you join some random forum just for the great UX? I guess not. Would you leave HN if design became worse? I don’t believe you would. my first impression of HN was “are you serious?! Back to 90s??” But I got used to it and it’s fine now.
- wmil 4y agoIf HN had a UI like phpBB I wouldn't use it.
- winternett 4y agoPhpbb's UI can be modified... People do it all the time like me on my own "blog" http://circuitbored.com/ http://circuitbored.com/ You just have to be super careful when updating to not overwrite your style changes... hah.
- aristofun 4y agoIf it were true you would never know the difference => your comment proves/refutes nothing
- UncleMeat 4y ago
- porphyra 4y agoIt's pretty nice. Loads super fast, super usable. And the parts that actually matter (e.g. the search function) have improved significantly in recent years. However there are some things that could improve. For example, in text posts (like this one), the font color is a relatively light grey which has rather bad contrast. Also, my mind is trained to ignore grey comments since those are usually quite downvoted so I have a hard time focusing on the text post.
- switch007 4y agoIf we could just fix navigating back to the homepage on Safari scrolling to the top of the page :(
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- bilsbie 4y agoI just want one new feature and then HN would be perfect. I want to be able to collapse and leave a thread from any point in the thread.
- dang 4y agoI'm afraid I don't follow. Can you describe what you want in more detail?
- mercutio2 4y agoI think he means: 1. Have a root node R with 20 comments at varying depths 2. Be reading comment 12, 4-5 layers deep 3. Realize you don't like the entire direction this thread, rooted in node R, is going, try to skip ahead to the next thread in case it's more interesting 4. Today, you have to click parent 2-3 times, or just page up, then collapse the whole thread I find myself doing this fairly frequently, too. The existing tools are nice, but it's not that infrequent that I decide the car crash I was initially interested in is not, in fact, a good basis for discussion; at that point I want to see if the next root node has anything good.
- bilsbie 4y agoIt’s a universal law that a site redesign makes the site worse.
- winternett 4y agoThe last Facebook revamp added dark mode, but totally made me stop logging in in because of all the utter clunky-ness of their layout and settings. They massively overthought the redesign process. Twitter's UI has been terrible for years, but access to real time content is their only saving grace left in my opinion. If only YouTube would stop trying to twist up their layout and create an alternate content view with skip/ffwd controls and better recommendation methods (like sticking within consistent music genres properly) I think they'd have something better. They simply have too much content (ad too much low effort content) now to still be using their old/linear play recommendation methods.
- amelius 4y agoMostly yes, except it is missing some important features: HN does not have a cookie banner in the EU, and it does not have an unsubscribe functionality that erases all your posts (right to be forgotten).
- cuddlecake 4y agoThe only cookie I see on hackernews is for authentication, so I don't think a cookie banner is neccessary (though I might be misinformed)
- Jaruzel 4y agoThis is correct. If the only cookies used are for site functionality, i.e. logging in to post, then no cookie banner is needed. A cookie banner is only needed it there are extra cookies for other purposes other than site-functionality, or are collected by third party sites/scripts. SO many sites threw up the banner by default when the law was initially brought it because it was easier then trying to work out if it was needed or not.
- jen20 4y agoNo cookie banner is necessary, assuming no cookies other than those required for basic functionality is used. As a logged-in user, I see only one first party cookie which appears used to support the login functionality. Please stop perpetuating the myth that good actors require cookie banners.
- waspight 4y agoHow in the world could a cookie banner be a wanted feature?
- contingencies 4y agodoes not have an unsubscribe functionality that erases all your posts (right to be forgotten) EU/non-EU citizen here. This is a well meaning regulation. However, it is difficult to implement technically. How do you structure a conversation where a critical participant has said they want to be forgotten. Is it enough - practically, ethically/morally, legally - to change the byline on their posts? What if there was additional identifying information? Can you hack the conversation to pieces without destroying the experience for others? What about historical reference? As a citizen in any society, in general, I believe that people should stand by their behavior and its consequences. That's what being an adult is. It's also positive to have spaces without or with reduced surveillance, but retroactively removing public discussion is quite another thing. If we muffle that, what do we have left? Certainly not a strong basis for public thought, historical inquiry, or truth. We've also learned that any legal loophole is abused by PR companies for rich people/companies with expensive lawyers. I fear that adding this sort of thing outside the EU would quickly lead to systemic abuse.
- rpmisms 4y agoIt works, looks inoffensive, and it's not a pain point, so I'd call it a strength.
- justsomehnguy 4y ago> if HN is still one of the best places to communicate It lacks in 'communicate' part > post serious matters That depends on whom you talk, not the UX, though yes, there is an overlap > highly effective, favorable, and functional The right question is the half of the answer. Half of it is 'and profit/revenue optimization goals'
- germinalphrase 4y agoTwo desires: - dark mode - comment reply notification (yes, I know there are third party work around a here)
- kube-system 4y agoThe lack of comment reply notifications is a feature not a bug. It places some natural limits on the lengths of discussions.
- snowwrestler 4y agoResisting the urge to allow embedded media in posts and comments is probably the single biggest factor in keeping the experience streamlined. I’m sure it greatly simplifies content moderation as well. Still wishing for official support for dark mode, though.
- winternett 4y agoOMG YES! As I age, Dark Mode is the one thing saving my eyes on many of the sites I regularly frequent... Actually, I think reading bright monitors has irreversibly damaged my vision a lot over time. I shouldn't have to use a browser plug-in to manually tweak CSS on sites like old Reddit FFS, it's really annoying to constantly have to view painfully bright sites online. It's a relatively easy option that all sites (that make money) should implement STAT.
- Gigachad 4y agoDark mode is a symptom of a problem caused by people using monitors in dark rooms. Turn your lights on and you won’t need a dark mode anymore. Any surface outside in the sun is orders of magnitude brighter than your monitor and yet it doesn’t hurt to look at.
- kamaal 4y agoI guess it's also about distance. Monitors are right in front of our eyes. I probably wouldn't hurt looking a tree or hill, or anything that is outside because they are at a distance. And of course you aren't going to stare at them for long periods of time. Staring at monitors/screens is different.
- TowerTall 4y agoThere are situations where that is not practical. Personally I live in the jungle in a tropical climate. Dark mode allows me to sit on my balcony with my computer at night. Light mode is like pointing a flashlight towards your face and "millions" of mosquitos arrives. It gets dark around here at 6:30 pm and it is impossible for me to use a computer with a light theme at night. Guess there is no size that fits all.
- waspight 4y agoI am a big fan of the "UX" at HN. I recently discovered indiehackers.com and while I like the content a lot I am having a hard time hanging out there. The site is too dark and there is too much noise, on HN there is just one feed which is nice.
- melony 4y agoIndiehackers is very slow, the site owner likes to use pithy quotes loading screens to mask poor SPA engineering.
- waspight 4y agoyes, I agree. It is painfully slow in fact. I tend to navigate a lot as well on such sites.
- damir 4y agoI use separate browser with JS disabled and it loads fast. No pithy quotes, no spinners, just fast content. Sure, some features break, but it is enough to get the content. Try it...
- waspight 4y agoI had a look at the api calls and those seems fast so you are probably right.
- winternett 4y agoIt took 20 seconds to load for me every time... Def a frustrating experience... They should lighten up on their UI design and go minimal perhaps if they don't want to spend more on a CDN.
- latchkey 4y agoFor my UX tweaks and improvements, I use: https://github.com/plibither8/refined-hacker-news https://github.com/plibither8/refined-hacker-news
- cercatrova 4y agoIndeed, it's a great extension
- cuddlecake 4y ago> if HN is still one of the best places to communicate and post serious matters citation needed. Other than that, I would love to see a bit better semantic markup, not because I'm some sort of HTML purist who demands everything to be pure, but because it would make it easier to style with CSS (which I did, to add dark mode, bigger font sizes and max widths). Currently, it's nested tables with occasional classes and ids, but not for everything.
- 7yundao 4y agothese can be done with your browser zoom in and dark mode plugins...
- jamiek88 4y agoCan you share your css? Those are my beefs with HN. Need bigger font and max widths as well as a bigger ‘collapse thread’ target.
- cuddlecake 4y agotable.fatitem,td.default{max-width:90ch}body,body>center>table,input,textarea{background-color:#262626!important}body>center>table>tbody>tr:first-child>td{background-color:#f60!important}.c00,.c00 a:link,a>u,a[href="http://www.ycombinator.com/apply/"],a[href="https://www.ycombinator.com/apply/"],body:not([id]),input,p>a,span.comment http://www.ycombinator.com/apply/"],a[href="https://www.ycom... font,span.comment font a:link,span.yclinks a:link,table.fatitem tbody tr td,td.title a:link,td:nth-child(2):not(.subtext)>a:link,textarea,u a:link{color:#ccc!important;font-size:15px}table.fatitem tbody tr:nth-child(n+3):not(:last-child) td{color:#bbb!important}.admin td{color:#aaa!important}table.fatitem{margin:auto}table.comment-tree{margin:auto;border-left:2px solid #444}input,textarea{border:1px solid #828282!important}a.togg.clicky{margin-left:4px;margin-right:4px;font-size:16px}
- jamiek88 4y agoThank you!
- 4y ago
- melony 4y agoThe fact that it doesn't need to change is because it is under the aegis of YC. Anyone else doing the same thing would have been long relegated to the dustbin of irrelevance. Imagine if one day Warren Buffet offers a co-investment opportunity in a new hedge fund, but you will have to physically fly to Panama and manually file the paperwork by hand to participate. Many people would still do it, not because they are willing to accept poor service, but because of the authority who is running the show.
- karaterobot 4y agoThere are incremental improvements they could make (user @latchkey enumerates quite a few in his linked repo), but it's basically fine. It would be a mistake to do what most link aggregators have done in the past, and burn the whole thing down to do a complete redesign from scratch (cf. Reddit, Digg). If the tendency is to do the latter, I'd prefer HN did nothing instead.
- ryandrake 4y agoI have a feeling we have not gotten the hostile "You'll get over it"[1] redesign from scratch because 1. HN doesn't have a team of UX experts desperately pleading to try out all their design experiments, 2. HN doesn't have a team of webdevs who want to re-factor everything into using the next framework-of-the-month, and 3. HN doesn't chase all these vanity metrics like engagement and time-on-site because it's a side-project of Ycombinator not their main business. 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnVeysllPDI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnVeysllPDI
- akulbe 4y agoIRC still exists. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- rado 4y agoIt’s great, but the buttons/links hit targets are too small for touch screens.
- whoomp12342 4y agoas someone who still uses the legacy reddit UI, yes.
- brundolf 4y agoThe only feature I'm missing is dark mode. On all my desktop browsers I've got custom stylesheets I hand-wrote to keep HN from burning my eyeballs, but on mobile there's nothing I can do about it.
- keehun 4y agoOn iOS, there's a browser called "Insight" which can do this automatically by injecting styles. I've began using an app for night-time use so I can take advantage of dark mode.
- nkurz 4y ago> on mobile there's nothing I can do about it Is there a reason you can't use a browser that has a built-in dark mode? I use "Samsung Internet Browser Beta" on Android because it has a dark mode, as well as good ad blocking. Might there be a comparable solution that would meet your needs?
- Graziano_M 4y agoIt works. I like it. If I could change one thing, though, I would make the collapse button next to the voting buttons, so that they are lined up.
- Raed667 4y agoReading HN on mobile web is a challenge sometimes. Quotes and indented text require horizontal scroll and deep threads get complicated to follow. The lack of a dark mode is also very annoying.
- faebi 4y agoI would like to have more touch friendly buttons, but that's about it. It's not a nice experience to press the wrong button, often.
- sofixa 4y agoNo. Well, maybe, but if anything i think that it's in spite of the UI/UX. The UI/UX is pretty bad on mobile, which is the majority of internet traffic (no idea about HN specifically, it probably isn't because it's just annoying) with the small buttons. I'm also not a fan of the POST redirects for basic things we have had AJAX for for literally more than a decade, but I'm probably in a minority here. I really don't think the 0.5s saved by not having the JS code for that are worth the back and forth blocking POSTs. The lack of dark mode is another annoyance. And the part which is the saddest, IMHO, is that if the code were open source, there'd be a PR/MR within minutes fixing each of those problems. If it were a commercial site, they would have already added those feature for growth and etc. But it's neither, so it lingers.
- s1k3s 4y agoThe HN board doesn't profit from advertising (at least not in the common, public way). If you're asking why others have changed and this didn't, I think that's the reason.
- notacoward 4y agoOverall, it works, with one caveat. Blocking and muting have become essential tools for managing one's social-media experience. Yes, I know well the dangers since I was the "victim" in a rather famous incident involving that on LambdaMOO many years ago. Nonetheless, that was then and this is now. Without those features, we get a lot more of people engaging in new rounds of brinksmanship with their favorite antagonists, staying just barely within the guidelines as they try to provoke a flaggable offense. Blocking and muting would actually reduce moderator load and (real or perceived) moderator unfairness, in addition to improving the overall tone of most discussions.
- winternett 4y agoContent blocking on platforms works mostly in a political manner now based on my experiences... The most aggravating thing about Twitter for me is that their mute controls don't work. On the other hand, blocking and muting can have adverse effects as well... Like preventing access to vital news. I want to believe that platforms have the best intent in mind, but once overhead, employee attrition, and investor pressure (etc) takes over, I think platforms always choose the easier path of evil to placate all those problems. The concept of following accounts now is functionally contradictory to how platforms promote content... Almost immediately after following a major or popular account (e.g. The Rock or NBC News) you get flooded with their posts and the users you'd normally follow all get pushed aside// This is a contradiction that nobody wants, whereas if posts were shown in chronological order on something like Twitter, timelines would be a lot better. Too many bad features are all running at the same time, and it's jarring. I end up not following any popular accounts, and popular posts STILL end up being recommended in my timeline on IG and Twitter now too... I think most platforms are recklessly plowing through trying to keep up with competition and making profit now to the point where they lose track of how new features will totally break core functionality. Using these platforms now, it's painful to observe the desperate and strange struggle towards their end of life.
- notacoward 4y ago> preventing access to vital news HN isn't Twitter, nor is it Facebook. Unlike tweets or posts respectively, blocking comments here from people who have trolled you repeatedly before would in no way prevent you from seeing any of that vital news.
- 0xbadc0de5 4y agoI think it's fair to say that there are a large number of front-end and "full-stack" (insert whatever definition of full-stack works for you) who frequent HN. If you were to ask a group of lawyers which part of HN could use the most attention - they might suggest stronger wording in the TOS or Privacy Policy. If you asked a group of ML/data scientists, they might suggest an improved API for programmatic access. If you ask a group of front-end devs, it might be perfectly obvious to them that it needs the latest whiz-bang stack - and a custom Electron client too! And I'd disagree with all of them. HN is great because it does one thing and does it well. It might not have found the global maximum, but any deviation from this particular local will likely involve a lengthy exploration of minimums.
- amadeuspagel 4y agoAny kind of change is going to bother people who've been using a site for a long time. There's always a tradeoff between appealing to new and to old users, HN values old users more. This is also reflected in the fact that you need a certain karma to downvote and flag.
- russellbeattie 4y agoI would pay money for target="_blank" to be added to the links. $50 cash on the barrelhead for any Ycombinator employee who wants to take on the challenge.
- Semiapies 4y agoSameness promotes inertia, which is always part of keeping an audience. It certainly isn't because large threads are unreadable on my tablet or that the vote controls are so tiny.
- anothernewdude 4y agoThe best UI is the one that doesn't make its users change their habits. Canonical and Apple should take note.
- aaron695 4y ago
- halotrope 4y agoThe one issue that I have with HN is that the vote buttons are too small on mobile. Apart from that, the page is clean, fast and accessible. Others should take notes.
- hammyhavoc 4y agoThe more relevant question to ask is how has the cultural zeitgeist impacted HN since its inception? And is the way content is curated and weighted, and moderated acceptable? I've seen some great conversations nipped in the bud by overly heavy moderation of the comments, especially regarding criticism of crypto whilst it was hot. Another question worth asking: is it a conflict of interest for Y Combinator to be so closely linked to the community all these years later? Is it not time to put it on its own domain with an appropriate privacy policy, and trade the "Guidelines" in favour of a serious T&Cs?
- benbristow 4y agoIt seems to only be the only website that ever seems to load on rubbish train WiFi, so it's definitely an advantage. My real gripe with the site is the font size, it's way too small. I usually have it zoomed in 150% on desktop. But maybe I ought to get some glasses as my eyesight is awful anyhow.
- galfarragem 4y agoThis UI is a haven in the web. It may act as a filter but a different UI would filter (a different demographic) also. A myriad of HN frontends already exist. HN team seems to naturally accept their existence and prosperity. So, everything's good.
- jjice 4y agoI think so. I think a lot of people on HN are going to lean towards it being a strength though. It's fast, to the point, and I never have to figure out where something was hidden in a menu since yesterday. Spotify is the absolute worst when it comes to senseless UI updates. They had it all covered for me back in 2016, and nothing I use has actually changed in functionality, just where the hell they move everything and how slow it is on my phone. I understand I have a cheap Android phone, but there's no reason an app to play music should be so slow. I use Podcast Addict for podcasts, and sometimes I'll just give up on Spotify because it won't load and listen to a podcast or Audible instead. HN has never put up a fight. Fastest site I use, and the only time I run into an issue is 9AM PT since there's usually a spike and things might load a bit slower, but it's never a huge deal, especially for a completely free site.
- spiralx 4y agoI mean the HTML is in the worst tradition of mid-90s web pages - table-based layout, spacer GIFs, inline styles and generally awkward mark-up that I'd reject if it were in a PR. My user style has a bunch of rules like ".ind img[width = "40"]" just to change the indentation of nested comments lol. Writing a new comment and editing an existing one work differently if done in a new tab, which is a minor niggle, more so having even the simplest of AJAX-based inline comment posting would be lovely. Could we get some comment styling improvements though? Using backticks for `inline code`, ~~strikethrough~~, block quoting with > and code blocks using ``` - especially with highlighting by specifying a language - would just make communication richer without changing the site's tone IMO.