5 ms·

Yes, there is such a thing as a formerly developed country

48 points by carride 4y ago

carride 4y ago
Archived https://archive.ph/7zQKk https://archive.ph/7zQKk
- rightbyte 4y ago
  Thanks. The paper asked me to "connect with Facebook or pay up" to read it for some reason ... but when I now visit the page again I can read the whole article without problem. Really strange.
bequanna 4y ago
This is nothing more than propaganda pretending to be a history lesson. The parallels cited in the article are hand picked to fit their “omg fascism in the US is totally real you guys” narrative. But back to Argentina. In reality, their fall is much more complicated and spread over a long period. But, if you had to simplify it could be described as a terrible cycle of unchecked power and corruption.
- krsw 4y ago
  Good thing “corruption” dares not show it's face in the US
  - bequanna 4y ago
    No political party or ideology has the market cornered on corruption. If you think the US is bad try starting a business, securing licensure, or navigating the judicial system in literally any other country.
    - StillBored 4y ago
      ? I mean sure, in some countries instead of waiting 6 months for a permit, you can pay the guy at the side door to skip the line and get it in a week/etc. But how is that any different than many of the things we do in the USA too, like for example in Austin, TX right now there is a ~4 month wait to take a driving test, but you can pay a 3rd party who will help you along in the process and "test" you, and then tell the DMV they have tested you, so you can get your license in a week or so. Or Clear at the airport. It all pay to play, the difference in the US is that we call them "public private partnerships" or other nonsense which ends up being a bribe to someone in the know who can accelerate the process. We pretend that clear is somehow more secure/etc than the interview and fingerprint global entry process (wait time ~9 months). Or that the 1+ year waiting periods to get a site plan approval, sped up if you know a council man, isn't just corruption. And in many cases these wait times are directly the result of funding cuts/etc to each and every organization, by a party that insists that government is inefficient, despite frequently being patently false. If I paid even half of the $500 fee I payed to the private driving instructor to the DMV they would be swimming in money to test people.
      - bequanna 4y ago
        I totally agree with you. Crony Capitalism is disgusting and I think we should always call it out. My argument is that we seem to have significantly less corruption overall in the US.
        withinboredom 4y ago
        I almost had a heart attack from laughing so hard. Thanks for that.
        bequanna 4y ago
        Help us out. Can you name one or more major nations that are as stable, less corrupt and less bureaucratic than the US?
        withinboredom 4y ago
    - Daishiman 4y ago
      Having lived in the US, while I admit that the entire premise of the article is wrong (I wrote a rebuttal below), modern Argentinian bureaucracy is actually much better than in many parts of the US.
    - dc-programmer 4y ago
      It’s the regulatory capture that really imposes drag on innovation and actual growth. Oligopolies cement their position by lobbying for legislation that essentially pulls the ladder up behind them. Argentina doesn’t really seem like the most salient example though because it’s a pretty unique country. On the other hand, Hungary’s backsliding into autocracy (and the reverence of certain western political groups towards its government) is a real cautionary tale for other countries.
      - ipaddr 4y ago
        Hungry is still reacting and moving to the right after the failed socialist governments who took over after the communist left. Hungry is going through a natural balancing act. Germany will shift back to right after years of going left. Going left solves some issues and creates others. Going right same thing. A country needs to shift back and forth to evolve properly. Going too far left or right brings a correction next cycle.
        dc-programmer 4y ago
        Hopefully they moderate. But freedom of the press is the keystone that holds a free society together. Once that is chipped away at by the government, it’s difficult to hold back the deluge
    - EdwardDiego 4y ago
      > If you think the US is bad try starting a business... ...in literally any other country ...other than New Zealand, Singapore, Hong Kong, Denmark, or South Korea, as of the 2020 Ease of Doing Business Report, as all these countries were ranked higher than the US :)
- Daishiman 4y ago
  The article is extremely poor. But you cannot say that there isn't fascism in the US; Mr DeSantis has signed a law asking for the political ideology of faculty and students, and a lot of people are clapping. It is also a country with deep structural racism and a police force that's infiltrated with literal fascists. All that can be true and completely unrelated with the bad premises of the article.
  - bequanna 4y ago
    > Mr DeSantis has signed a law asking for the political ideology of faculty and students Sorry, I’m not sure which law you’re referring to here. Can you elaborate?
    - Daishiman 4y ago
      https://www.tampabay.com/news/education/2022/04/01/judge-clears-way-for-intellectual-diversity-surveys-at-florida-colleges/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/education/2022/04/01/judge-cle...
      - bequanna 4y ago
        There is a lot to unpack in that article but the spirit of the bill seems to be to expose professors who are forcing their politics on students by making voluntary surveys available. Do you think we should tolerate teachers who attempt to indoctrinate vulnerable students?
        rkallos 4y ago
        The current SCOTUS seems to be fine with coaches coercing teenage athletes into public prayer sessions, overturning a previous SCOTUS ruling. Meanwhile, I find it ironic that the same state enacting this "intellectual diversity" law has specifically banned teaching critical race theory in public schools. A voluntary survey invites participation bias; respondents will likely skew heavily toward the "I feel I am being indoctrinated/I feel uncomfortable voicing my beliefs". The spirit of the law aside, this law looks like a lever to pull funding from universities where the median Floridian, who votes Republican, would feel like their views are being challenged.
- guywithahat 4y ago
  This article doesn't mention Venezuela once. Way too many articles get posted here because someone has a political point their trying to push and not because they're good quality
Daishiman 4y ago
As an Argentinian I hate this meme. The statistics of the past don't account for the fact that Argentina -still is- but used to be a deeply, deeply unequal country with a small cadre of families owning the vast majority of land, and then pretty much everyone else. That oligarchy engaged in multiple decades of election fraud, propped-up military dictators, and many other shady practices to remain in power. That doesn't matter much when looking at the general economic indicators for a country that exported huge amounts of food in a global context to two world wars and a destroyed Europe. Perón came from the military, he was a demagogue, and was a fascist sympathizer. He was also the among the first governments to actually develop institutions for a strong middle class, including hospitals, schools, universal policies that benefited the working poor as well as myriad other highly progressive laws. As with a lot of populist programs it came at cost far beyond what even the relatively wealthy state could afford, which combined with the opposition to Perón (both in the shape of the military, conservatives, and also liberals who opposed Perón's repressive personality cult) turned into his downfall. What followed Perón was another series of military governments and "democratic" governments with very limited power. The development of institutions that guaranteed middle-class wealth gradually slowed down, and the country has never been able to transition away from primary exports as its basic means of foreign currency. The substantial difference from its neighboring countries is that decades of failed monetary policy have resulted in some of the highest inflation in the world, and a great degree of that failure is no doubt due to the tension between conservative and Peronist policy goals. But make no mistake, it is also true that Argentina has a substantial, educated middle class when compared to its neighbors and I'm not really sure that would have been possible without a measure of populism being introduced to break from decades of oligarchs who cared little beyond getting grain from their fields to the ports. Perón is a polarizing figure because many can simultaneously attribute the rise of an industrial middle class to him as well as the subsequent degeneration of monetary policy and demagogue populist entitlement programs of dubious effectiveness. But I doubt its lessons translate much to current times.

48 points by carride 4y ago

carride 4y ago

Archived https://archive.ph/7zQKk https://archive.ph/7zQKk

rightbyte 4y ago
Thanks. The paper asked me to "connect with Facebook or pay up" to read it for some reason ... but when I now visit the page again I can read the whole article without problem. Really strange.

bequanna 4y ago

This is nothing more than propaganda pretending to be a history lesson. The parallels cited in the article are hand picked to fit their “omg fascism in the US is totally real you guys” narrative. But back to Argentina. In reality, their fall is much more complicated and spread over a long period. But, if you had to simplify it could be described as a terrible cycle of unchecked power and corruption.

krsw 4y ago
Good thing “corruption” dares not show it's face in the US
- bequanna 4y ago
  No political party or ideology has the market cornered on corruption. If you think the US is bad try starting a business, securing licensure, or navigating the judicial system in literally any other country.
  - StillBored 4y ago
    ? I mean sure, in some countries instead of waiting 6 months for a permit, you can pay the guy at the side door to skip the line and get it in a week/etc. But how is that any different than many of the things we do in the USA too, like for example in Austin, TX right now there is a ~4 month wait to take a driving test, but you can pay a 3rd party who will help you along in the process and "test" you, and then tell the DMV they have tested you, so you can get your license in a week or so. Or Clear at the airport. It all pay to play, the difference in the US is that we call them "public private partnerships" or other nonsense which ends up being a bribe to someone in the know who can accelerate the process. We pretend that clear is somehow more secure/etc than the interview and fingerprint global entry process (wait time ~9 months). Or that the 1+ year waiting periods to get a site plan approval, sped up if you know a council man, isn't just corruption. And in many cases these wait times are directly the result of funding cuts/etc to each and every organization, by a party that insists that government is inefficient, despite frequently being patently false. If I paid even half of the $500 fee I payed to the private driving instructor to the DMV they would be swimming in money to test people.
    - bequanna 4y ago
      I totally agree with you. Crony Capitalism is disgusting and I think we should always call it out. My argument is that we seem to have significantly less corruption overall in the US.
      - withinboredom 4y ago
        I almost had a heart attack from laughing so hard. Thanks for that.
        bequanna 4y ago
        Help us out. Can you name one or more major nations that are as stable, less corrupt and less bureaucratic than the US?
        withinboredom 4y ago
  - Daishiman 4y ago
    Having lived in the US, while I admit that the entire premise of the article is wrong (I wrote a rebuttal below), modern Argentinian bureaucracy is actually much better than in many parts of the US.
  - dc-programmer 4y ago
    It’s the regulatory capture that really imposes drag on innovation and actual growth. Oligopolies cement their position by lobbying for legislation that essentially pulls the ladder up behind them. Argentina doesn’t really seem like the most salient example though because it’s a pretty unique country. On the other hand, Hungary’s backsliding into autocracy (and the reverence of certain western political groups towards its government) is a real cautionary tale for other countries.
    - ipaddr 4y ago
      Hungry is still reacting and moving to the right after the failed socialist governments who took over after the communist left. Hungry is going through a natural balancing act. Germany will shift back to right after years of going left. Going left solves some issues and creates others. Going right same thing. A country needs to shift back and forth to evolve properly. Going too far left or right brings a correction next cycle.
      - dc-programmer 4y ago
        Hopefully they moderate. But freedom of the press is the keystone that holds a free society together. Once that is chipped away at by the government, it’s difficult to hold back the deluge
  - EdwardDiego 4y ago
    > If you think the US is bad try starting a business... ...in literally any other country ...other than New Zealand, Singapore, Hong Kong, Denmark, or South Korea, as of the 2020 Ease of Doing Business Report, as all these countries were ranked higher than the US :)
Daishiman 4y ago
The article is extremely poor. But you cannot say that there isn't fascism in the US; Mr DeSantis has signed a law asking for the political ideology of faculty and students, and a lot of people are clapping. It is also a country with deep structural racism and a police force that's infiltrated with literal fascists. All that can be true and completely unrelated with the bad premises of the article.
- bequanna 4y ago
  > Mr DeSantis has signed a law asking for the political ideology of faculty and students Sorry, I’m not sure which law you’re referring to here. Can you elaborate?
  - Daishiman 4y ago
    https://www.tampabay.com/news/education/2022/04/01/judge-clears-way-for-intellectual-diversity-surveys-at-florida-colleges/ https://www.tampabay.com/news/education/2022/04/01/judge-cle...
    - bequanna 4y ago
      There is a lot to unpack in that article but the spirit of the bill seems to be to expose professors who are forcing their politics on students by making voluntary surveys available. Do you think we should tolerate teachers who attempt to indoctrinate vulnerable students?
      - rkallos 4y ago
        The current SCOTUS seems to be fine with coaches coercing teenage athletes into public prayer sessions, overturning a previous SCOTUS ruling. Meanwhile, I find it ironic that the same state enacting this "intellectual diversity" law has specifically banned teaching critical race theory in public schools. A voluntary survey invites participation bias; respondents will likely skew heavily toward the "I feel I am being indoctrinated/I feel uncomfortable voicing my beliefs". The spirit of the law aside, this law looks like a lever to pull funding from universities where the median Floridian, who votes Republican, would feel like their views are being challenged.
guywithahat 4y ago
This article doesn't mention Venezuela once. Way too many articles get posted here because someone has a political point their trying to push and not because they're good quality

Daishiman 4y ago

As an Argentinian I hate this meme. The statistics of the past don't account for the fact that Argentina -still is- but used to be a deeply, deeply unequal country with a small cadre of families owning the vast majority of land, and then pretty much everyone else. That oligarchy engaged in multiple decades of election fraud, propped-up military dictators, and many other shady practices to remain in power. That doesn't matter much when looking at the general economic indicators for a country that exported huge amounts of food in a global context to two world wars and a destroyed Europe. Perón came from the military, he was a demagogue, and was a fascist sympathizer. He was also the among the first governments to actually develop institutions for a strong middle class, including hospitals, schools, universal policies that benefited the working poor as well as myriad other highly progressive laws. As with a lot of populist programs it came at cost far beyond what even the relatively wealthy state could afford, which combined with the opposition to Perón (both in the shape of the military, conservatives, and also liberals who opposed Perón's repressive personality cult) turned into his downfall. What followed Perón was another series of military governments and "democratic" governments with very limited power. The development of institutions that guaranteed middle-class wealth gradually slowed down, and the country has never been able to transition away from primary exports as its basic means of foreign currency. The substantial difference from its neighboring countries is that decades of failed monetary policy have resulted in some of the highest inflation in the world, and a great degree of that failure is no doubt due to the tension between conservative and Peronist policy goals. But make no mistake, it is also true that Argentina has a substantial, educated middle class when compared to its neighbors and I'm not really sure that would have been possible without a measure of populism being introduced to break from decades of oligarchs who cared little beyond getting grain from their fields to the ports. Perón is a polarizing figure because many can simultaneously attribute the rise of an industrial middle class to him as well as the subsequent degeneration of monetary policy and demagogue populist entitlement programs of dubious effectiveness. But I doubt its lessons translate much to current times.