4 ms·

I'll be a resident contrarian and argue that building more houses in the SW is a good thing. - The desert is probably the best place to build sprawling metropo

I'll be a resident contrarian and argue that building more houses in the SW is a good thing. - The desert is probably the best place to build sprawling metropolises with the lowest ecological impact (overall) - Cooling is more energy efficient than heating. - Houses in places like AZ are implicitly less wasteful (no lawns, better insulated, etc). - People like it But the question is how to get water to these places? Especially knowing now that the Colorado River Compact was designed when rainfall was at historic highs. But I don't think there is any long term solution that doesn't involve California giving up on taking other state's water to grow high-intensity agriculture.

alistairSH 4y ago
Point 3 - the article explicitly mentioned lawn sprinklers, a pool for bathing horses, and some other things that most definitely DO waste water. And are they required to be better insulated?
- legitster 4y ago
  Sure, but on average less than northern cities. At the end of the day, I don't actually care about moralizing what's wasteful or not if the owner is being charged the proper cost to acquire. If that's $1 a gallon for solar and desalination/recycled water, enjoy that lawn. (Pedantic person side note: pools are not actually that wasteful. If they are properly covered when not in use, evaporative loss is actually pretty minimal).
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    > Sure, but on average less than northern cities. This isn't true. Compare NYC's average of 117 GPD[1] to TMWA's 165 GPD[2]. That's 40% more water use, per individual. The last year that NYC's residents came close to using that much water was 1996. [1]: https://www1.nyc.gov/site/dep/water/history-of-drought-water-consumption.page https://www1.nyc.gov/site/dep/water/history-of-drought-water... [2]: https://www.nevadatomorrow.org/indicators/index/view?indicatorId=11315&localeId=1813 https://www.nevadatomorrow.org/indicators/index/view?indicat...
    - Scoundreller 4y ago
      Swamp/evaporative coolers might be a big part of that difference.
  - eesmith 4y ago
    Water in the Southwest has never been charged "the proper cost to acquire." It's being pumped out faster than it can be replenished. Rivers are drained dry. People have built for decades on the belief that water will never be its true cost. Now it's the end of that day. The "proper cost to acquire" isn't enough. Who pays the cost of repairing the damage done, like groundwater-related subsidence? Of restoring ecosystems?
  - alistairSH 4y ago
    I don't actually care about moralizing what's wasteful or not if the owner is being charged the proper cost to acquire. In theory, I feel the same way. However, I'm not sure anybody is paying anywhere near the proper cost with externalities included.
woodruffw 4y ago
> The desert is probably the best place to build sprawling metropolises with the lowest ecological impact (overall) Ecological impact includes draining aquifers and diverting rivers. Human civilizations, particularly dense ones, have preferred oceans and rivers near temperate rainforests (like the entire Northeast) for this reason. The marginal advantages of less heating aren't outweighed by the resource and economic advantages of living near large bodies of water in areas where the geology and ecology actually supports it.
- legitster 4y ago
  That doesn't mean it has to be the case. Israel is a good model for how you can invest heavily in desalination and irrigation efficiency and support profitable agriculture, even in wasteland spaces.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    Sure. It's all a manner of economic and political pressures and weights. We can also colonize the Moon or fill in the New York Harbor, but there are much cheaper and more realistic alternatives. Israel is an unusual case: it's a state that exists more or less by religious mandate, meaning that its residents have gone above and beyond ordinary economic and political forces to make it livable. Lots of individual outcomes there can be applied elsewhere (like drip irrigation), but much is also politically infeasible in the US (like Israel's central authority that progressively taxes commercial water use.) Ecological variables also differ: the majority of people in Israel live in the Northern half of the country, which is wetter and greener than the American Southwest. That's also where agriculture is concentrated.
phpisthebest 4y ago
>> Cooling is more energy efficient than heating. How is that? First thing ofcourse is everything we do as human, including our body is generating heat, for my cooling my home is FAR FAR FAR more expensive (thus i would assume more energy intensive) than heating my home. >>Houses in places like AZ are implicitly less wasteful (no lawns, better insulated, etc). This is largely government zoning or HOA's here, people outside of AZ could allow for less lawns as well. This would require a cultural shift. I would love to replace my lawn with something I did not have to mow, but my local government prevents that >- People like it Some people like, some people (like me) like cold climates, or places with seasonal changes. I would never in a million years live in the south west US, I prefer places that snow.
- Finnucane 4y ago
  > but my local government prevents that They mandate you have a grass lawn?
  - tristor 4y ago
    Yes, unfortunately, this is very common. I'm in South Texas (for a few more weeks before I move) and my municipal ordinance requires homes to have a grass lawn and for it to be maintained. No HOA here (main reason I bought this house). I pay a lawn service company monthly to manage it for me, because it's a huge pain otherwise due to the climate.
    - legitster 4y ago
      Are you sure? Most places I have lived, the wording of the local ordinance says "IF you have a grass lawn, it must be maintained". I don't think many places would have issue with a nice xeriscaped native garden or even a cinder lawn.
      - tristor 4y ago
        Depends on the place, for sure. Where I currently reside, the town is named after a particular species of tree, and it was required when all the homes were built that each property had one of this species of tree on the property. You are obligated to both maintain that tree (or replace it if it dies) and to have a lawn, this is actually the ordinance here. I agree it's kind of ridiculous, but I also live in an area known for its onerous HOAs, and these ordinances are basically just a subset of that writ large, but without the worst of it. I'll still take this over living in an HOA.
paulcole 4y ago
> People like it This one doesn't hold water (no pun intended). Over the next few generations, people in the US are going to have to give up a whole lot of things they like.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
dktoao 4y ago
You are going to need to provide a source for your claim that cooling is less efficient than heating. AFAIK from my days as a mechanical engineer, heating from an electric source is ~95% efficient and cooling is ~30% efficient...
- coryrc 4y ago
  Heat pumps have COP of 2-4, so in either heating or cooling mode, they generate more heating/cooling than electricity used. But the reason cooling is cheaper is the temperature differential. AZ might get to, say, 110°F peak (and far cooler at night), for a temp delta of 35°F while the Midwest will stay below 20°F for months, and even colder at night, for a temp differential no better than 50°F during the day and 60°F at night.
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    And heat pump efficiency takes a dump when it has to go through defrost cycles in heating mode at near/below freezing temps. In cooling mode they provide a source of fresh-distilled water! It always bothered me when air conditioners just dump that water down the sanitary drain instead of pumping it in a garden or misting it on the outside coils.
    - coryrc 4y ago
      Yeah, air source has problems at cold temperatures, especially if they cheap out on ice detection. Fresh is not the word I would use for condensate. Try drinking some of you disagree :). It's corrosive for metal,{EDIT: maybe I just have that confused, see replies} which is why it usually doesn't find a purpose, but you could run it to plants. I have a window A/C which uses it for cooling the outside coils though.
      - Scoundreller 4y ago
        Still wouldn't drink it unless I'm desperate, but I don't see why it would be corrosive. Maybe slightly basic from being in contact with metals, but it couldn't be much unless your coils and fins are disappearing before your eyes. Legionella is a concern though. https://www.environmentalleader.com/2013/01/air-conditioning-condensate-recovery/ https://www.environmentalleader.com/2013/01/air-conditioning...
galdosdi 4y ago
> - The desert is probably the best place to build sprawling metropolises with the lowest ecological impact (overall) The only problem is then these metropolises are in the desert, and you have to ship all agricultural products to them. That's fine most of the time when times are good and supply chains work, but it's fragile, if anything goes wrong enough in the worldwide food markets. A desert metropolis is like an island nation that must import all its food. A precarious position if times ever get tough. I believe currently the USA is a net exporter of food products, but if you started building and growing enough desert cities that might stop being the case
mythrwy 4y ago
These desert ecosystems are much more sensitive though. If you disturb prairie it comes back after a couple of years of rain. Not so the desert.

alistairSH 4y ago

Point 3 - the article explicitly mentioned lawn sprinklers, a pool for bathing horses, and some other things that most definitely DO waste water. And are they required to be better insulated?

legitster 4y ago
Sure, but on average less than northern cities. At the end of the day, I don't actually care about moralizing what's wasteful or not if the owner is being charged the proper cost to acquire. If that's $1 a gallon for solar and desalination/recycled water, enjoy that lawn. (Pedantic person side note: pools are not actually that wasteful. If they are properly covered when not in use, evaporative loss is actually pretty minimal).
- woodruffw 4y ago
  > Sure, but on average less than northern cities. This isn't true. Compare NYC's average of 117 GPD[1] to TMWA's 165 GPD[2]. That's 40% more water use, per individual. The last year that NYC's residents came close to using that much water was 1996. [1]: https://www1.nyc.gov/site/dep/water/history-of-drought-water-consumption.page https://www1.nyc.gov/site/dep/water/history-of-drought-water... [2]: https://www.nevadatomorrow.org/indicators/index/view?indicatorId=11315&localeId=1813 https://www.nevadatomorrow.org/indicators/index/view?indicat...
  - Scoundreller 4y ago
    Swamp/evaporative coolers might be a big part of that difference.
- eesmith 4y ago
  Water in the Southwest has never been charged "the proper cost to acquire." It's being pumped out faster than it can be replenished. Rivers are drained dry. People have built for decades on the belief that water will never be its true cost. Now it's the end of that day. The "proper cost to acquire" isn't enough. Who pays the cost of repairing the damage done, like groundwater-related subsidence? Of restoring ecosystems?
- alistairSH 4y ago
  I don't actually care about moralizing what's wasteful or not if the owner is being charged the proper cost to acquire. In theory, I feel the same way. However, I'm not sure anybody is paying anywhere near the proper cost with externalities included.

woodruffw 4y ago

> The desert is probably the best place to build sprawling metropolises with the lowest ecological impact (overall) Ecological impact includes draining aquifers and diverting rivers. Human civilizations, particularly dense ones, have preferred oceans and rivers near temperate rainforests (like the entire Northeast) for this reason. The marginal advantages of less heating aren't outweighed by the resource and economic advantages of living near large bodies of water in areas where the geology and ecology actually supports it.

legitster 4y ago
That doesn't mean it has to be the case. Israel is a good model for how you can invest heavily in desalination and irrigation efficiency and support profitable agriculture, even in wasteland spaces.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Sure. It's all a manner of economic and political pressures and weights. We can also colonize the Moon or fill in the New York Harbor, but there are much cheaper and more realistic alternatives. Israel is an unusual case: it's a state that exists more or less by religious mandate, meaning that its residents have gone above and beyond ordinary economic and political forces to make it livable. Lots of individual outcomes there can be applied elsewhere (like drip irrigation), but much is also politically infeasible in the US (like Israel's central authority that progressively taxes commercial water use.) Ecological variables also differ: the majority of people in Israel live in the Northern half of the country, which is wetter and greener than the American Southwest. That's also where agriculture is concentrated.

phpisthebest 4y ago

>> Cooling is more energy efficient than heating. How is that? First thing ofcourse is everything we do as human, including our body is generating heat, for my cooling my home is FAR FAR FAR more expensive (thus i would assume more energy intensive) than heating my home. >>Houses in places like AZ are implicitly less wasteful (no lawns, better insulated, etc). This is largely government zoning or HOA's here, people outside of AZ could allow for less lawns as well. This would require a cultural shift. I would love to replace my lawn with something I did not have to mow, but my local government prevents that >- People like it Some people like, some people (like me) like cold climates, or places with seasonal changes. I would never in a million years live in the south west US, I prefer places that snow.

Finnucane 4y ago
> but my local government prevents that They mandate you have a grass lawn?
- tristor 4y ago
  Yes, unfortunately, this is very common. I'm in South Texas (for a few more weeks before I move) and my municipal ordinance requires homes to have a grass lawn and for it to be maintained. No HOA here (main reason I bought this house). I pay a lawn service company monthly to manage it for me, because it's a huge pain otherwise due to the climate.
  - legitster 4y ago
    Are you sure? Most places I have lived, the wording of the local ordinance says "IF you have a grass lawn, it must be maintained". I don't think many places would have issue with a nice xeriscaped native garden or even a cinder lawn.
    - tristor 4y ago
      Depends on the place, for sure. Where I currently reside, the town is named after a particular species of tree, and it was required when all the homes were built that each property had one of this species of tree on the property. You are obligated to both maintain that tree (or replace it if it dies) and to have a lawn, this is actually the ordinance here. I agree it's kind of ridiculous, but I also live in an area known for its onerous HOAs, and these ordinances are basically just a subset of that writ large, but without the worst of it. I'll still take this over living in an HOA.

paulcole 4y ago

> People like it This one doesn't hold water (no pun intended). Over the next few generations, people in the US are going to have to give up a whole lot of things they like.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

dktoao 4y ago

You are going to need to provide a source for your claim that cooling is less efficient than heating. AFAIK from my days as a mechanical engineer, heating from an electric source is ~95% efficient and cooling is ~30% efficient...

coryrc 4y ago
Heat pumps have COP of 2-4, so in either heating or cooling mode, they generate more heating/cooling than electricity used. But the reason cooling is cheaper is the temperature differential. AZ might get to, say, 110°F peak (and far cooler at night), for a temp delta of 35°F while the Midwest will stay below 20°F for months, and even colder at night, for a temp differential no better than 50°F during the day and 60°F at night.
- Scoundreller 4y ago
  And heat pump efficiency takes a dump when it has to go through defrost cycles in heating mode at near/below freezing temps. In cooling mode they provide a source of fresh-distilled water! It always bothered me when air conditioners just dump that water down the sanitary drain instead of pumping it in a garden or misting it on the outside coils.
  - coryrc 4y ago
    Yeah, air source has problems at cold temperatures, especially if they cheap out on ice detection. Fresh is not the word I would use for condensate. Try drinking some of you disagree :). It's corrosive for metal,{EDIT: maybe I just have that confused, see replies} which is why it usually doesn't find a purpose, but you could run it to plants. I have a window A/C which uses it for cooling the outside coils though.
    - Scoundreller 4y ago
      Still wouldn't drink it unless I'm desperate, but I don't see why it would be corrosive. Maybe slightly basic from being in contact with metals, but it couldn't be much unless your coils and fins are disappearing before your eyes. Legionella is a concern though. https://www.environmentalleader.com/2013/01/air-conditioning-condensate-recovery/ https://www.environmentalleader.com/2013/01/air-conditioning...

galdosdi 4y ago

> - The desert is probably the best place to build sprawling metropolises with the lowest ecological impact (overall) The only problem is then these metropolises are in the desert, and you have to ship all agricultural products to them. That's fine most of the time when times are good and supply chains work, but it's fragile, if anything goes wrong enough in the worldwide food markets. A desert metropolis is like an island nation that must import all its food. A precarious position if times ever get tough. I believe currently the USA is a net exporter of food products, but if you started building and growing enough desert cities that might stop being the case

mythrwy 4y ago

These desert ecosystems are much more sensitive though. If you disturb prairie it comes back after a couple of years of rain. Not so the desert.