5 ms·

On a planet that is 2/3 water, I think we can find a solution. Desalination comes to mind. We built an interstate highway system. We can build an interstate wat

On a planet that is 2/3 water, I think we can find a solution. Desalination comes to mind. We built an interstate highway system. We can build an interstate water distribution system for desalinated Pacific Ocean water.

MisterTea 4y ago
Desalination requires energy and the ocean is far away for a lot of people.
crooked-v 4y ago
For this particular situation, that's a lot of money to spend just to serve already-well-off people willingly choosing to live in the desert in a drought.
- caramelcustard 4y ago
  Almost any significant technological innovation was expensive to provide to the public in its infancy but as the time went on, it became more accessible to the public. Right off the bat, i could name airplane transportation as a fine example.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    The flaw in this reasoning is that it requires corresponding demand among the non-wealthy. It was true for airlines (everybody likes to go on vacation); is there a particular reason to believe that the average American wants to live in a desert, particularly as the resource limitations become more obvious?
    - caramelcustard 4y ago
      Perhaps it was true for airlines, but mind you that airlines were a substantial upgrade over railways in terms of travel speed, so it's not just about vacations. "...is there a particular reason to believe that the average American wants to live in a desert..." yes and no. With the rise of "alternative lifestyles", i wouldn't be surprised if people would begin exploring the cheaper to purchase lands for development. And while, obviously, most people aren't going to live in the desert, the technology that would be developed and used could benefit in areas other than "supplying those desert weirdos with water". Alternative ways to obtain quality water to me are just like what airplane travel was in comparison to railways.
    - throwaway193948 4y ago
      take a look at arizona real estate prices over the past couple years people want to live where it’s sunny and warm
      - woodruffw 4y ago
        I'm not denying that there are people who want to live there. It's obvious there are (and that there are growth trends, particularly as snowbirds seem to be discarding Florida as their first choice). The dispute is about scale: a couple of million retirees equal a lot of speculative housing value, but they don't justify a megaproject to deliver water to the middle of the desert. That would require population migration on a scale not seen in over a century in the US.
  - eesmith 4y ago
    Only some airplane transportation. Supersonic commercial air travel is less accessible now than it was 50 years ago. Inter-city rail travel is much less accessible now than 80 years ago. More to the point, you've assuming the conclusion. If we could distill and pump water from the Pacific Ocean to Arizona at cost-effective rates then yes, it would be a significant technological innovation. But knowing that it would be a significant technological innovation doesn't make it happen. We don't have many flying cars, even though the technology has been around for decades. Yet cheap flying cars would be a significant technological innovation, yes? We already have the ability to transport Pacific water from the Carlsbad Desalination Plant in San Diego to Arizona, via the road system. If your argument has merit, then we should be seeing the existing price getting lower, right? What isn't the price going down fast enough to meet the obvious demand?
    - caramelcustard 4y ago
      "Supersonic commercial air travel is less accessible now than it was 50 years ago..." gee, there should be a reason for that, can't put my finger on it...hmm...could it be the complexity and the challenges of constructing a reliable and economically viable supersonic aircraft in comparison to "other air travel options"? "We don't have many flying cars..." because of reasons that are completely out of the scope of this discussion. The airspace has a different set of rules and "vehicle operator" requirements in comparison to...the ground. Considering that many have trouble operating ground vehicles in a safe manner, i doubt that we're ever going to have manually controlled "flying cars" being a viable transportation option. And no, they wouldn't be as significant as the shift from ground travel to AIR, as we already have air travel options. I didn't say that there is "an obvious demand", in fact i said quite the opposite, that not many people are going to want to live in the desert. When you're talking about the costs, do you mean the costs of desalination, transportation or both?
      - eesmith 4y ago
        I refer to "the complexity and the challenges of constructing a reliable and economically viable" "interstate water distribution system for desalinated Pacific Ocean water", quoting direct parents. The cost of desalination, the costs to build and maintain the tunnel/aqueduct system, the cost pumping water from sea level to 1,000 feet (elevation for Phoenix - likely more as the traversed part of the San Joaquin Valley is below sea level.) To say nothing of the political and ecological costs - look at how well the Colorado River Compact has turned out, and the effect on the Colorado River Delta. Water flows uphill towards money, certainly, but that's going to need a lot of money. Speaking of the San Joaquin Valley, I would expect this water distribution system to irrigate California farmland first.
  - imtringued 4y ago
    The problem isn't a lack of technology. Even if there was a magic technology it is unlikely to be adopted.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
TigeriusKirk 4y ago
That, and I expect we'll see growing demand for geoengineering solutions to bring more rainfall. Entrenched money interests won't just accept the situation, they'll fight with every plausible tool, for better or worse.
newaccount2021 4y ago
knappe 4y ago
Okay, I'll bite. So the proposition is to truck water 364 miles (from the next largest city center I could find, San Diego). I think you might be suggesting a pipeline, but let's be real, there won't be water in Scottsdale in 5 years (and a pipeline won't be done anytime before that). People already find water brought in from _Phoenix_ which is _13_ miles away to be too expensive. So what exactly is the solution?
- RhysU 4y ago
  > People already find water brought in from _Phoenix_ which is _13_ miles away to be too expensive. Too expensive for what? Too expensive is a continuum.
SECProto 4y ago
Anyone who recommends desalination and pipelines hasn't looked at how cheap the water on a municipal water bill is, let alone agricultural users: Approx a dollar or two per cubic meter supplied to my doorstep, depending what my consumption rate is. Other cities would be similar range. That's in the range of 0.1 cents per litre
aidenn0 4y ago
I don't want to be defeatist, but it seems like we can't build magaprojects in the US anymore.
lbrito 4y ago
>We can build an interstate water distribution system Canals are a well-known technology. Humanity has several thousand years of experience with them. Desalination is the real problem.
- azinman2 4y ago
  It isn’t magically flat between ocean across the US. You’d need extreme amounts of energy to get it over the mountains.
  - RhysU 4y ago
    But not through the mountains. See also the Pennsylvania turnpike.

MisterTea 4y ago

Desalination requires energy and the ocean is far away for a lot of people.

crooked-v 4y ago

For this particular situation, that's a lot of money to spend just to serve already-well-off people willingly choosing to live in the desert in a drought.

caramelcustard 4y ago
Almost any significant technological innovation was expensive to provide to the public in its infancy but as the time went on, it became more accessible to the public. Right off the bat, i could name airplane transportation as a fine example.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  The flaw in this reasoning is that it requires corresponding demand among the non-wealthy. It was true for airlines (everybody likes to go on vacation); is there a particular reason to believe that the average American wants to live in a desert, particularly as the resource limitations become more obvious?
  - caramelcustard 4y ago
    Perhaps it was true for airlines, but mind you that airlines were a substantial upgrade over railways in terms of travel speed, so it's not just about vacations. "...is there a particular reason to believe that the average American wants to live in a desert..." yes and no. With the rise of "alternative lifestyles", i wouldn't be surprised if people would begin exploring the cheaper to purchase lands for development. And while, obviously, most people aren't going to live in the desert, the technology that would be developed and used could benefit in areas other than "supplying those desert weirdos with water". Alternative ways to obtain quality water to me are just like what airplane travel was in comparison to railways.
  - throwaway193948 4y ago
    take a look at arizona real estate prices over the past couple years people want to live where it’s sunny and warm
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      I'm not denying that there are people who want to live there. It's obvious there are (and that there are growth trends, particularly as snowbirds seem to be discarding Florida as their first choice). The dispute is about scale: a couple of million retirees equal a lot of speculative housing value, but they don't justify a megaproject to deliver water to the middle of the desert. That would require population migration on a scale not seen in over a century in the US.
- eesmith 4y ago
  Only some airplane transportation. Supersonic commercial air travel is less accessible now than it was 50 years ago. Inter-city rail travel is much less accessible now than 80 years ago. More to the point, you've assuming the conclusion. If we could distill and pump water from the Pacific Ocean to Arizona at cost-effective rates then yes, it would be a significant technological innovation. But knowing that it would be a significant technological innovation doesn't make it happen. We don't have many flying cars, even though the technology has been around for decades. Yet cheap flying cars would be a significant technological innovation, yes? We already have the ability to transport Pacific water from the Carlsbad Desalination Plant in San Diego to Arizona, via the road system. If your argument has merit, then we should be seeing the existing price getting lower, right? What isn't the price going down fast enough to meet the obvious demand?
  - caramelcustard 4y ago
    "Supersonic commercial air travel is less accessible now than it was 50 years ago..." gee, there should be a reason for that, can't put my finger on it...hmm...could it be the complexity and the challenges of constructing a reliable and economically viable supersonic aircraft in comparison to "other air travel options"? "We don't have many flying cars..." because of reasons that are completely out of the scope of this discussion. The airspace has a different set of rules and "vehicle operator" requirements in comparison to...the ground. Considering that many have trouble operating ground vehicles in a safe manner, i doubt that we're ever going to have manually controlled "flying cars" being a viable transportation option. And no, they wouldn't be as significant as the shift from ground travel to AIR, as we already have air travel options. I didn't say that there is "an obvious demand", in fact i said quite the opposite, that not many people are going to want to live in the desert. When you're talking about the costs, do you mean the costs of desalination, transportation or both?
    - eesmith 4y ago
      I refer to "the complexity and the challenges of constructing a reliable and economically viable" "interstate water distribution system for desalinated Pacific Ocean water", quoting direct parents. The cost of desalination, the costs to build and maintain the tunnel/aqueduct system, the cost pumping water from sea level to 1,000 feet (elevation for Phoenix - likely more as the traversed part of the San Joaquin Valley is below sea level.) To say nothing of the political and ecological costs - look at how well the Colorado River Compact has turned out, and the effect on the Colorado River Delta. Water flows uphill towards money, certainly, but that's going to need a lot of money. Speaking of the San Joaquin Valley, I would expect this water distribution system to irrigate California farmland first.
- imtringued 4y ago
  The problem isn't a lack of technology. Even if there was a magic technology it is unlikely to be adopted.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

TigeriusKirk 4y ago

That, and I expect we'll see growing demand for geoengineering solutions to bring more rainfall. Entrenched money interests won't just accept the situation, they'll fight with every plausible tool, for better or worse.

newaccount2021 4y ago

knappe 4y ago

Okay, I'll bite. So the proposition is to truck water 364 miles (from the next largest city center I could find, San Diego). I think you might be suggesting a pipeline, but let's be real, there won't be water in Scottsdale in 5 years (and a pipeline won't be done anytime before that). People already find water brought in from _Phoenix_ which is _13_ miles away to be too expensive. So what exactly is the solution?

RhysU 4y ago
> People already find water brought in from _Phoenix_ which is _13_ miles away to be too expensive. Too expensive for what? Too expensive is a continuum.

SECProto 4y ago

Anyone who recommends desalination and pipelines hasn't looked at how cheap the water on a municipal water bill is, let alone agricultural users: Approx a dollar or two per cubic meter supplied to my doorstep, depending what my consumption rate is. Other cities would be similar range. That's in the range of 0.1 cents per litre

aidenn0 4y ago

I don't want to be defeatist, but it seems like we can't build magaprojects in the US anymore.

lbrito 4y ago

>We can build an interstate water distribution system Canals are a well-known technology. Humanity has several thousand years of experience with them. Desalination is the real problem.

azinman2 4y ago
It isn’t magically flat between ocean across the US. You’d need extreme amounts of energy to get it over the mountains.
- RhysU 4y ago
  But not through the mountains. See also the Pennsylvania turnpike.