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love seeing the resistance to this period of peak centralized control of lives months ago many ppl i know praised central mandates on things like ESG scores &

love seeing the resistance to this period of peak centralized control of lives months ago many ppl i know praised central mandates on things like ESG scores & vaccines. Near all have completely reversed their position just 6 months later (even deleting previous tweets). the unprecedented political-decisions as of late have been something of an IQ test.

Zerverus 4y ago
Any proof at all for this claim?
- ejb999 4y ago
  what exactly are you looking for? certified letters from the people he knows proving that he is accurately reflecting what he has seen?
  - zthrowaway 4y ago
    It's as if we are no longer able to perform inductive reasoning.
- mastazi 4y ago
  parent edited their comment which originally was just the first paragraph about centralised control, I suppose that's what you are replying to. Obviously it is hard to quantify control so I don't have hard numbers to present, but I ask you: can you name a more efficient surveillance device than a smartphone? Note that smartphones became ubiquitous very recently, I would say during the last 10 to 15 years (before that, they did exist but were used by a tiny minority of people).
  - fabbari 4y ago
    I can: people. If you think that mass surveillance requires technology you haven't seen what, for example, eastern European regimes we're able to accomplish. Stasi [0] would be the first such example. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi
- upsidesinclude 4y ago
  By sheer numbers this has likely been the "peak centralized control of lives". Clearly that's the prominent fact and claim to be proved out. It is certainly the most important claim discussed, but it's concerning that we have to wonder whether you intend to question the shifting of opinions instead of the claim.
formerkrogemp 4y ago
> love seeing the resistance to this period of peak centralized control of lives I'm not sure what you mean, exactly. Climate change is and will happen. One of the central questions is how much we choose to act to mitigate its consequences. If we, as you seem to imply, apply a hands off approach as we have done for decades, then you can have negative externalities that compound uncontrolled and unchecked to blow up in everyone's faces to the detriment, decay, and possible destruction of society. The world is unfortunately not so simple as the "resistance" and "centralized control of lives" as you make it out to be. Actions and lack thereof have consequences. We're feeling them now. I tire of discussing the consequences of climate change with those in denial. I hope your disillusionment with reality doesn't harm your future.
- cosmiccrisp 4y ago
  "Close down your ancestral farms and do as we say or these horrible tribulations and curses will befall you, your cities will be drowned into the ocean, your lands will glow a fiery red, pestilences and disease will succumb you... probably in about 30 years from now when I'm dead and wont have to answer to you when I am wrong.". This is essentially what you are saying and what you believe. What did it take to put you and so many others into this mindset?
  - Flozzin 4y ago
    I for one, will be alive for another 50 years if you go by how old my grandfather and father are(both still quite alive). As long as the farmers are made whole if their farms are indeed shut down. Right now that is a 'fear' not an actuality of any policy. Times change, things change. I am pretty confident in saying that these ancestral farms are not run the same today as they were 100 years ago. So their impact is much different. Also, I feel the same about people that do not want to leave the environment cleaner on all levels. "Who cares about climate change, I'll be dead when the worst of it comes to pass."
  - time_to_smile 4y ago
    > What did it take to put you and so many others into this mindset? For me it was looking at the data and learning more about geology as well as systems thinking. It was about a decade ago now that I was curious what the big deal was about CO2 ppm rising so high, and then again a few years after that when we reached a new minimum for global sea ice. Looking into the details of these problems and then learning more about how our global energy economic works I started to realize the situation at hand. The more you understand the data as well as ways of viewing climate modeling from various different scientific communities the more you realize how dire the situation is and how often our models under estimate variance, and how that variance is more likely to be on the "worse than expected" than "better than expected" side of things. But, I'm also of the perspective that it's far too late. We can't even tackle nitrogen pollution in a relatively progressive area of Europe, we'll never be able to touch on the larger problems we're facing. On top of that the time for action was around 30+ years ago.
Flozzin 4y ago
This is mostly a fair criticism. I've seen the common, 'my body my rights' used in both vaccines and abortion rights. I would point out however, that the vaccine is less deadly, with fewer side effects than carrying a baby to birth. But also, vaccines give herd immunity, which is a direct benefit to the people around you. So they wouldn't be the same. Vaccines and climate change are not comparable in any way. And just to state, you can be pro-government and anti-government in certain areas of life/society simultaneously without being a hypocrite. Government is and can be expansive and everyone has their limits. Unless you also like pointing out that people live in houses but still go outside?(What is that all about? like come on, you either love living indoors or outdoors you can't do both /s)
- nradov 4y ago
  The COVID-19 vaccines don't give herd immunity. I would encourage everyone eligible to protect themselves by getting vaccinated, but this does very little to prevent infection and transmission. Everyone will be exposed. https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu... https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646 https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646
- ejb999 4y ago
  >>you can be pro-government and anti-government in certain areas of life Perhaps, but you cannot be 'my body my choice' for one thing, and my body, the governments choice in another - the moral high ground on the 'my body my choice' slogan, has been lost - you can't have it both ways imo, and the left has muddied the waters quite a bit by arguing for 2 years that, no you don't get to decide, the government does. - sure, you can slice and parse the differences all you want, but the previous absoluteness of the 'my body my choice' message has been permanently tainted - and will be exploited over and over again by those that are opposed to abortion (which btw, is not me)

Zerverus 4y ago

Any proof at all for this claim?

ejb999 4y ago
what exactly are you looking for? certified letters from the people he knows proving that he is accurately reflecting what he has seen?
- zthrowaway 4y ago
  It's as if we are no longer able to perform inductive reasoning.
mastazi 4y ago
parent edited their comment which originally was just the first paragraph about centralised control, I suppose that's what you are replying to. Obviously it is hard to quantify control so I don't have hard numbers to present, but I ask you: can you name a more efficient surveillance device than a smartphone? Note that smartphones became ubiquitous very recently, I would say during the last 10 to 15 years (before that, they did exist but were used by a tiny minority of people).
- fabbari 4y ago
  I can: people. If you think that mass surveillance requires technology you haven't seen what, for example, eastern European regimes we're able to accomplish. Stasi [0] would be the first such example. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi
upsidesinclude 4y ago
By sheer numbers this has likely been the "peak centralized control of lives". Clearly that's the prominent fact and claim to be proved out. It is certainly the most important claim discussed, but it's concerning that we have to wonder whether you intend to question the shifting of opinions instead of the claim.

formerkrogemp 4y ago

> love seeing the resistance to this period of peak centralized control of lives I'm not sure what you mean, exactly. Climate change is and will happen. One of the central questions is how much we choose to act to mitigate its consequences. If we, as you seem to imply, apply a hands off approach as we have done for decades, then you can have negative externalities that compound uncontrolled and unchecked to blow up in everyone's faces to the detriment, decay, and possible destruction of society. The world is unfortunately not so simple as the "resistance" and "centralized control of lives" as you make it out to be. Actions and lack thereof have consequences. We're feeling them now. I tire of discussing the consequences of climate change with those in denial. I hope your disillusionment with reality doesn't harm your future.

cosmiccrisp 4y ago
"Close down your ancestral farms and do as we say or these horrible tribulations and curses will befall you, your cities will be drowned into the ocean, your lands will glow a fiery red, pestilences and disease will succumb you... probably in about 30 years from now when I'm dead and wont have to answer to you when I am wrong.". This is essentially what you are saying and what you believe. What did it take to put you and so many others into this mindset?
- Flozzin 4y ago
  I for one, will be alive for another 50 years if you go by how old my grandfather and father are(both still quite alive). As long as the farmers are made whole if their farms are indeed shut down. Right now that is a 'fear' not an actuality of any policy. Times change, things change. I am pretty confident in saying that these ancestral farms are not run the same today as they were 100 years ago. So their impact is much different. Also, I feel the same about people that do not want to leave the environment cleaner on all levels. "Who cares about climate change, I'll be dead when the worst of it comes to pass."
- time_to_smile 4y ago
  > What did it take to put you and so many others into this mindset? For me it was looking at the data and learning more about geology as well as systems thinking. It was about a decade ago now that I was curious what the big deal was about CO2 ppm rising so high, and then again a few years after that when we reached a new minimum for global sea ice. Looking into the details of these problems and then learning more about how our global energy economic works I started to realize the situation at hand. The more you understand the data as well as ways of viewing climate modeling from various different scientific communities the more you realize how dire the situation is and how often our models under estimate variance, and how that variance is more likely to be on the "worse than expected" than "better than expected" side of things. But, I'm also of the perspective that it's far too late. We can't even tackle nitrogen pollution in a relatively progressive area of Europe, we'll never be able to touch on the larger problems we're facing. On top of that the time for action was around 30+ years ago.

Flozzin 4y ago

This is mostly a fair criticism. I've seen the common, 'my body my rights' used in both vaccines and abortion rights. I would point out however, that the vaccine is less deadly, with fewer side effects than carrying a baby to birth. But also, vaccines give herd immunity, which is a direct benefit to the people around you. So they wouldn't be the same. Vaccines and climate change are not comparable in any way. And just to state, you can be pro-government and anti-government in certain areas of life/society simultaneously without being a hypocrite. Government is and can be expansive and everyone has their limits. Unless you also like pointing out that people live in houses but still go outside?(What is that all about? like come on, you either love living indoors or outdoors you can't do both /s)

nradov 4y ago
The COVID-19 vaccines don't give herd immunity. I would encourage everyone eligible to protect themselves by getting vaccinated, but this does very little to prevent infection and transmission. Everyone will be exposed. https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu... https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646 https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/vinay-prasad/94646
ejb999 4y ago
>>you can be pro-government and anti-government in certain areas of life Perhaps, but you cannot be 'my body my choice' for one thing, and my body, the governments choice in another - the moral high ground on the 'my body my choice' slogan, has been lost - you can't have it both ways imo, and the left has muddied the waters quite a bit by arguing for 2 years that, no you don't get to decide, the government does. - sure, you can slice and parse the differences all you want, but the previous absoluteness of the 'my body my choice' message has been permanently tainted - and will be exploited over and over again by those that are opposed to abortion (which btw, is not me)