4 ms·

I can't help having a bit of freudenschade. The mighty Germans F it up. They didn't want to break eggs with Turkey and get advantage of the SE Med gas reserves.

by v4dok 4y ago

I can't help having a bit of freudenschade. The mighty Germans F it up. They didn't want to break eggs with Turkey and get advantage of the SE Med gas reserves. They didn't like nuclear after bashing it for so long. And of course, they got dragged into a war that they are too small for. Sad thing is that 1. Whole EU has to suffer because of this 2. You can't stop thinking "What it would be like if Germany actually stepped up to lead with understanding"

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
TMWNN 4y ago
>And of course, they got dragged into a war that they are too small for. There is no inherent reason why Germany cannot singlehandedly support/fund Ukraine's war with a country with an economy 40% Germany's size. That it cannot is a condemnation of every German government over the past 30 years. (That NATO's European members cannot do so either, and that the US is providing the bulk of the Ukraine aid, is correspondingly a condemnation of every member government over the past 30 years, although the newer members get a pass because they are a) small, b) poor, and c) actually meet the NATO 2%-of-GDP guideline.)
- mr_toad 4y ago
  At this point any two of the UK, France or Turkey could probably take on Russia by themselves. Turkey could probably do it by themselves. None of them want to get in an expensive war. And Putin is probably bluffing about using nukes, but who wants to risk it.
  - v4dok 4y ago
    IMO, you severely underestimate how difficult wars are now. Russia has not even general mobilization active, Moscow is running "business as usual" (AFAIK). Taking any "modern" military completely out is a guaranteed war of attrition at this point (and a MAD in itself)
- blub 4y ago
  Most countries have better things to do than perpetually going to war and meddling in the affairs of other countries. So on the contrary, there is no reason - inherent or otherwise - why Western Europe would get at all involved in this war. It’s a catastrophe for WE and by extension also for EE. The US do have an interest and they’re dragging/pushing WE into the fire while EE are jumping head first with barely any encouragement. If anything the EU has proven that the East-West rift cannot be overcome and that they do not have strategic independence.
- v4dok 4y ago
  Funding a war is not fighting a war. Germany cannot fight a war now, thats why they "rearm".
- StanislavPetrov 4y ago
  >There is no inherent reason why Germany cannot singlehandedly support/fund Ukraine's war with a country with an economy 40% Germany's size. There certainly is an inherent reason, which is that Germany and the German economy is dependent on Russian oil and gas as well as fertilizer and a whole host of other natural resources. This inherent reason will initially be felt only economically as factories and industries shut down without the resources need to continue production. In a few months when the temperature starts dropping this inherent reason will be felt in a much more interpersonal way as the German people start freezing to death when they can not afford to heat their homes or find the fuel to do so.
  - rasz 4y ago
    Calm down with those freezing to death rhetorics. Yes, they might have to wear sweaters indoors, no more 20-24°C in whole house during winter.
dayjaby 4y ago
I guess you are a warmongering american? "And of course they got dragged into a war" is like the most stupid shit I read this entire year. Maybe you should stop invading every country and stop forcing Europeans into wars, that they don't want to fight.
- monkeyshelli 4y ago
  The parent comment had few valid points. As a fellow EU citizen, from Finland, I'm quite sadden how badly the Germans have handled the post-Ukrainian invasion, from energy perspective and from leadership point-of-view. The latter will have long lasting effect on the whole of EU.
  - yrgulation 4y ago
    The Emperor has no clothes. Germany is heading towards a few well earned decades of economic stagnation and political decline. The question is - will the rest of the EU be able to seize this opportunity?
- v4dok 4y ago
  I don't know why you disagree with me. Thats exactly my point. Whole EU got dragged into a long war by US, that could have been avoided if EU had any real strength behind it. Whole EU is at fault for being sleepy, thinking that US protection is coming for free. France tried repeatedly (for their own benefit but thats a given) to arm EU. Germany was comfortable so they turn it down (or at least hide behind US opposition).
  - AnonymousPlanet 4y ago
    > France tried repeatedly (for their own benefit but thats a given) to arm EU. Germany was comfortable so they turn it down (or at least hide behind US opposition). It wasn't Germany blocking an EU wide army but the UK. Maybe you should get your facts straight.
imtringued 4y ago
>And of course, they got dragged into a war that they are too small for. What? Since when is making nuclear weapons obsolete a noble goal? I am really confused. Rheinmetall is heavily investing into autonomous AI for ground vehicles. The drone swarm memes are starting to get real, except flying drones were a stupid fantasy fueled by cheap imported plastic drones rather any any capability that they offer. >Sad thing is that 1. Whole EU has to suffer because of this 2. You can't stop thinking "What it would be like if Germany actually stepped up to lead with understanding" The EU doesn't work like that.

by v4dok 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

TMWNN 4y ago

>And of course, they got dragged into a war that they are too small for. There is no inherent reason why Germany cannot singlehandedly support/fund Ukraine's war with a country with an economy 40% Germany's size. That it cannot is a condemnation of every German government over the past 30 years. (That NATO's European members cannot do so either, and that the US is providing the bulk of the Ukraine aid, is correspondingly a condemnation of every member government over the past 30 years, although the newer members get a pass because they are a) small, b) poor, and c) actually meet the NATO 2%-of-GDP guideline.)

mr_toad 4y ago
At this point any two of the UK, France or Turkey could probably take on Russia by themselves. Turkey could probably do it by themselves. None of them want to get in an expensive war. And Putin is probably bluffing about using nukes, but who wants to risk it.
- v4dok 4y ago
  IMO, you severely underestimate how difficult wars are now. Russia has not even general mobilization active, Moscow is running "business as usual" (AFAIK). Taking any "modern" military completely out is a guaranteed war of attrition at this point (and a MAD in itself)
blub 4y ago
Most countries have better things to do than perpetually going to war and meddling in the affairs of other countries. So on the contrary, there is no reason - inherent or otherwise - why Western Europe would get at all involved in this war. It’s a catastrophe for WE and by extension also for EE. The US do have an interest and they’re dragging/pushing WE into the fire while EE are jumping head first with barely any encouragement. If anything the EU has proven that the East-West rift cannot be overcome and that they do not have strategic independence.
v4dok 4y ago
Funding a war is not fighting a war. Germany cannot fight a war now, thats why they "rearm".
StanislavPetrov 4y ago
>There is no inherent reason why Germany cannot singlehandedly support/fund Ukraine's war with a country with an economy 40% Germany's size. There certainly is an inherent reason, which is that Germany and the German economy is dependent on Russian oil and gas as well as fertilizer and a whole host of other natural resources. This inherent reason will initially be felt only economically as factories and industries shut down without the resources need to continue production. In a few months when the temperature starts dropping this inherent reason will be felt in a much more interpersonal way as the German people start freezing to death when they can not afford to heat their homes or find the fuel to do so.
- rasz 4y ago
  Calm down with those freezing to death rhetorics. Yes, they might have to wear sweaters indoors, no more 20-24°C in whole house during winter.

dayjaby 4y ago

I guess you are a warmongering american? "And of course they got dragged into a war" is like the most stupid shit I read this entire year. Maybe you should stop invading every country and stop forcing Europeans into wars, that they don't want to fight.

monkeyshelli 4y ago
The parent comment had few valid points. As a fellow EU citizen, from Finland, I'm quite sadden how badly the Germans have handled the post-Ukrainian invasion, from energy perspective and from leadership point-of-view. The latter will have long lasting effect on the whole of EU.
- yrgulation 4y ago
  The Emperor has no clothes. Germany is heading towards a few well earned decades of economic stagnation and political decline. The question is - will the rest of the EU be able to seize this opportunity?
v4dok 4y ago
I don't know why you disagree with me. Thats exactly my point. Whole EU got dragged into a long war by US, that could have been avoided if EU had any real strength behind it. Whole EU is at fault for being sleepy, thinking that US protection is coming for free. France tried repeatedly (for their own benefit but thats a given) to arm EU. Germany was comfortable so they turn it down (or at least hide behind US opposition).
- AnonymousPlanet 4y ago
  > France tried repeatedly (for their own benefit but thats a given) to arm EU. Germany was comfortable so they turn it down (or at least hide behind US opposition). It wasn't Germany blocking an EU wide army but the UK. Maybe you should get your facts straight.

imtringued 4y ago

>And of course, they got dragged into a war that they are too small for. What? Since when is making nuclear weapons obsolete a noble goal? I am really confused. Rheinmetall is heavily investing into autonomous AI for ground vehicles. The drone swarm memes are starting to get real, except flying drones were a stupid fantasy fueled by cheap imported plastic drones rather any any capability that they offer. >Sad thing is that 1. Whole EU has to suffer because of this 2. You can't stop thinking "What it would be like if Germany actually stepped up to lead with understanding" The EU doesn't work like that.