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The thing is, unless using those technologies was somehow core to what the single engineer was trying to, it might be technically impressive but might not have

The thing is, unless using those technologies was somehow core to what the single engineer was trying to, it might be technically impressive but might not have actually provided value for users. Users don't really care if you have a really impressive stack with cool technologies if it doesn't offer anything more than a couple of web servers and a DB server.

mountainriver 4y ago
Yeah but k8s isn’t hard at all if you know it, it’s actually substantially easier than a couple web servers and dbserver and provides a whole lot more
- mirceal 4y ago
  So, your argument is that you should use a tool if you know how to use it, regardless of if it's actually needed? Personally I would take managing "a couple of webservers and a db" any day over k8s.
  - liuliu 4y ago
    His point is to use whatever simplifies workflow / reduces operational overhead. To some people, that indeed would be k8s. To you, that may be "managing a couple of webservers and a db". And that is great for you.
  - mountainriver 4y ago
    yeah I use k8s for basic webapps and it works wonderfully, and is way way easier than anything else, and yes I started developing in the 90s so I've seen it all. There is a bit of overhead in learning k8s, but once you know it, it's dead simple for every use case I've found and takes you way further than anything else.
- throwaway787544 4y ago
  Rocket science isn't hard if you know it. Should we all build spaceships to deliver groceries? Good luck finding a few local rocket scientists in a pinch. You can find plenty of auto mechanics though. Cars are cheaper and ubiquitous. Maybe they can't drive to the moon, but they can get most things done. Unless your business is flying to the moon, stick to cars and trucks over spaceships.
  - hllooo 4y ago
    lol yes it is
  - mountainriver 4y ago
    lol what? k8s isn't rocket science, for a basic web app its a single yaml file
    - throwaway787544 4y ago
      In the same sense that rockets aren't complicated either, you just put on a suit, climb in, press some buttons
      - heurist 4y ago
        I largely agree with the previous poster. If a single brief yaml file is too complicated, you're asking for too much from your tooling. I've seen hideous configuration management systems that did 1/100th of what kubernetes can do. There is some additional complexity around containers which is not a k8s complexity issue, and there are advanced features that most devs will never need to touch. Regardless, I'll take the complexity saved by k8s over custom built tooling or oversimplified PaaS any day.
charlie0 4y ago
Right on. Previous devs at co I joined wanted to play DevOps cowboys. They used Ansible scripts to spin up various AWS services costing the company over 100K/yr. New lead came in, got rid of that crap by using 3rd party services to spin up infrastructure. Got a load balancer, a few VMs + DB. Reduced the cost down by 85% and greatly simplified the entire stack. I learned a really valuable lesson without having to make that mistake myself. I understand why people get excited about tooling. It's cool to learn new things and automate stuff away. I'm prone to that myself and do this on my own server when I get that itch. Having said that, it's wrong to foist this stuff onto an unsuspecting company where the owners don't know any better about tech, that's why they hire other people to do that for them and seeing that just left a bad taste in my mouth for overcomplicated setups. I get that SV is different, that's why tools like K8 are made and I would jump on those tools on a heartbeat as needed. But for other smaller businesses, the truth is they just need a boring monolothic load balanced app with a few VMs and a DB sprinkled with 3rd party services for logging or searching or other stuff not core to the business.
- Tehchops 4y ago
  I know this utterly misses the larger point of your comment, but: > They used Ansible scripts to spin up various AWS services This seems less about using the "cool/new" tech... rather it's about using the "right" tech. Config management tools like Ansible/Chef/Puppet are very much previous-generation when it comes to cloud infrastructure. They... can manage cloud infrastructure, but they were created prior to the ubiquity of cloud deployments, and the features are glued on. Not choosing a more modern IaC framework tells me they(those devs) were going to be making sub-optimal implementation decisions regardless.
  - charlie0 4y ago
    Yeah, this project was several years old. Take this with a grain of salt, I'm not familiar with timelines in terms of k8s, but I would guess that it had not yet risen to popularity as it has in more recent years.

mountainriver 4y ago

Yeah but k8s isn’t hard at all if you know it, it’s actually substantially easier than a couple web servers and dbserver and provides a whole lot more

mirceal 4y ago
So, your argument is that you should use a tool if you know how to use it, regardless of if it's actually needed? Personally I would take managing "a couple of webservers and a db" any day over k8s.
- liuliu 4y ago
  His point is to use whatever simplifies workflow / reduces operational overhead. To some people, that indeed would be k8s. To you, that may be "managing a couple of webservers and a db". And that is great for you.
- mountainriver 4y ago
  yeah I use k8s for basic webapps and it works wonderfully, and is way way easier than anything else, and yes I started developing in the 90s so I've seen it all. There is a bit of overhead in learning k8s, but once you know it, it's dead simple for every use case I've found and takes you way further than anything else.
throwaway787544 4y ago
Rocket science isn't hard if you know it. Should we all build spaceships to deliver groceries? Good luck finding a few local rocket scientists in a pinch. You can find plenty of auto mechanics though. Cars are cheaper and ubiquitous. Maybe they can't drive to the moon, but they can get most things done. Unless your business is flying to the moon, stick to cars and trucks over spaceships.
- hllooo 4y ago
  lol yes it is
- mountainriver 4y ago
  lol what? k8s isn't rocket science, for a basic web app its a single yaml file
  - throwaway787544 4y ago
    In the same sense that rockets aren't complicated either, you just put on a suit, climb in, press some buttons
    - heurist 4y ago
      I largely agree with the previous poster. If a single brief yaml file is too complicated, you're asking for too much from your tooling. I've seen hideous configuration management systems that did 1/100th of what kubernetes can do. There is some additional complexity around containers which is not a k8s complexity issue, and there are advanced features that most devs will never need to touch. Regardless, I'll take the complexity saved by k8s over custom built tooling or oversimplified PaaS any day.

charlie0 4y ago

Right on. Previous devs at co I joined wanted to play DevOps cowboys. They used Ansible scripts to spin up various AWS services costing the company over 100K/yr. New lead came in, got rid of that crap by using 3rd party services to spin up infrastructure. Got a load balancer, a few VMs + DB. Reduced the cost down by 85% and greatly simplified the entire stack. I learned a really valuable lesson without having to make that mistake myself. I understand why people get excited about tooling. It's cool to learn new things and automate stuff away. I'm prone to that myself and do this on my own server when I get that itch. Having said that, it's wrong to foist this stuff onto an unsuspecting company where the owners don't know any better about tech, that's why they hire other people to do that for them and seeing that just left a bad taste in my mouth for overcomplicated setups. I get that SV is different, that's why tools like K8 are made and I would jump on those tools on a heartbeat as needed. But for other smaller businesses, the truth is they just need a boring monolothic load balanced app with a few VMs and a DB sprinkled with 3rd party services for logging or searching or other stuff not core to the business.

Tehchops 4y ago
I know this utterly misses the larger point of your comment, but: > They used Ansible scripts to spin up various AWS services This seems less about using the "cool/new" tech... rather it's about using the "right" tech. Config management tools like Ansible/Chef/Puppet are very much previous-generation when it comes to cloud infrastructure. They... can manage cloud infrastructure, but they were created prior to the ubiquity of cloud deployments, and the features are glued on. Not choosing a more modern IaC framework tells me they(those devs) were going to be making sub-optimal implementation decisions regardless.
- charlie0 4y ago
  Yeah, this project was several years old. Take this with a grain of salt, I'm not familiar with timelines in terms of k8s, but I would guess that it had not yet risen to popularity as it has in more recent years.