5 ms·

What kind of fairness can there be in charging for stolen books? I believe in free access to education, but charging for these books they have no rights to is

What kind of fairness can there be in charging for stolen books? I believe in free access to education, but charging for these books they have no rights to is a whole other thing.

Sparkle-san 4y ago
It would depend on how they use the funds. I wouldn't be surprised if bandwidth expenses made up a majority of what it cost to run Z-Library and that money has to come from somewhere.
mdp2021 4y ago
Running costs.
fancyfredbot 4y ago
You don't have to pay them if you go steal them yourself. If you find it more convenient to pay another thief to do it for you then I don't think that's significantly less fair.
- UmbertoNoEco 4y ago
  All those India/Malasya/Guatemala kids stealing a 200 USD PDE book from Pearson should go to jail... in America... Assange style
  - dang 4y ago
    Could you please top posting unsubstantive comments to HN? You've been doing it a lot, unfortunately, and we're trying for a different sort of discussion here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago
The "to be fair" is against the claim in the article that they charge for books. It's a figure of speech, not a comment on what they do.
jl6 4y ago
Yeah, grey hat shenanigans easily become black hat as soon as money is involved.
KMnO4 4y ago
They’re not charging for the books; they’re charging for the bandwidth.
mgaunard 4y ago
Technically, they're not charging for the books, they're charging for the bandwidth.
krick 4y ago
I don't quite agree. I mean, they provide useful service, and it costs money to run it. It's ok that they earn (even if it's actually making a profit, not just covering the costs). That being said, 10 downloads/day feels a bit restrictive to me. I'd get if it was 100, or 50, heck, maybe even 20. I mean, I don't appreciate that it's not mirrorable in the first place, but maybe they cannot afford it, I don't know... But 10 feels less than somebody researching a new topic might need to access in a day, even if he won't read them all immediately. …That being said as well, it has some really nice UI. I wish somebody did it for Libgen.
- lupire 4y ago
  You read more than 10 books per day?
  - krick 4y ago
    Read — no, I don't. Download to skim and see the contents — yes (even though I don't do it everyday, obviously). In fact, I rarely download less than 4 books at once, except for occasions when it's a new book of my favorite writer (in which case I can as well just buy it). Instead, there is some topic, some reason why I need these books, and I somehow can gather a dozen of recommendations, maybe more, then I need to actually get a look inside of them, to see what I'll be reading (if anything). It also happens that I kinda know the book, but not precisely enough, because some authors really like to milk the topic by publishing 5 books kinda the same as the first successful one, and if they are technical they can have 5 revisions each. I may not read them at all, or I may be reading them during the whole next year, but I'll need to get them all at once at first. And if we also count papers, which this site provides too — easily.
- Aachen 4y ago
  It's a good thing their hosting provider is okay with providing bandwidth per individual user account on the site of up to—how many books did you say again, 50? Without sarcasm, I don't think the bandwidth bill cares that you find it restrictive. That even more than a handful are free every day for every account is honestly a lot, since that means virtually nobody will need to contribute to the costs they're collectively incurring. And if you're unable to pay, you can still skim a few dozen books (making two or three accounts isn't that hard to do by hand) every day, and go back to any you've already downloaded previously too. And offer them to friends to offload the server.
swayvil 4y ago
>What kind of fairness...? Well they are providing a great public service and their system takes money to maintain. It's just a small fee.
II2II 4y ago
At this point is worth noting that there are reputable sources for free books, such as public libraries and Project Gutenberg. I realize that neither source will satisfy many of the people on HN, simply because there is a need for current technical books.
- harry8 4y ago
  What on earth does "reputable" mean here? Total compliance with the regulatory capture of publishing companies? Full support of the landgrab claims of the Disney corporation et al? You don't have to be an anarchist to look at the status quo and think some amount of civil disobedience is the correct, proper and right thing to do. Also believing that a claim, fully Disney supported, that such an amount of civil disobedience is somehow ethically evil is, in fact, somewhat disreputable. As disreputable as the insanely high journal subscription fees for taxpayer funded research, for example. The publishing companies chose this path willingly and with prejudice for their profit turning the relevant law against the people. Are they reputable given they did so? It's hardly an outlying position around here to think they really aren't anything of the sort. Refusing to accept that on mass, until appropriate reform is supported and enacted could be considered quite worthwhile. You may of course, disagree.
  - pnutjam 4y ago
    IRC, ebook highway.
    - Tepix 4y ago
      Might as well link the guide: https://www.reddit.com/r/Piracy/comments/2oftbu/guide_the_idiot_proof_guide_to_downloading_ebooks/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Piracy/comments/2oftbu/guide_the_id...
  - II2II 4y ago
    Not all authors and not all publishers are alike. It is easy to cherry pick a few very bad apples, like Disney (especially since much of their success can be attributed to retelling stories from the public domain) or those who are actively anti-library (from the perspective of property rights, at the level of a physical book or purchased ebook - not the right to make and distribute copies). On the other hand you also have authors who have reasonable views of copyright and even give away their books. You also have publishers who are willing to have their books lent by libraries or don't place artificial restrictions on consumers when it comes to ebooks. Of course, access to publicly funded research is another issue altogether (and one that should consider patents as well as copyrights). The question becomes, how many of those targets of "civil disobedience" have earned that privilege and how many are simply collateral damage? Also, ideally, civil disobedience should be aimed towards changing laws rather than people simply taking what they want.
sacrosanct 4y ago
Golden rule of piracy: don’t profit from stolen works or it’s not piracy, it’s profiteering.
- sudosysgen 4y ago
  Revenue != Profit. I really doubt they're doing anything beyond paying to keep the lights on.
jrm4 4y ago
I worked as a volunteer to fundraise for my local library. I can see no meaningful moral difference between this and that. I get that the law is different, I just think the law is off here.

What kind of fairness can there be in charging for stolen books? I believe in free access to education, but charging for these books they have no rights to is a whole other thing.

Sparkle-san 4y ago

It would depend on how they use the funds. I wouldn't be surprised if bandwidth expenses made up a majority of what it cost to run Z-Library and that money has to come from somewhere.

mdp2021 4y ago

Running costs.

fancyfredbot 4y ago

You don't have to pay them if you go steal them yourself. If you find it more convenient to pay another thief to do it for you then I don't think that's significantly less fair.

UmbertoNoEco 4y ago
All those India/Malasya/Guatemala kids stealing a 200 USD PDE book from Pearson should go to jail... in America... Assange style
- dang 4y ago
  Could you please top posting unsubstantive comments to HN? You've been doing it a lot, unfortunately, and we're trying for a different sort of discussion here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

dkjaudyeqooe 4y ago

The "to be fair" is against the claim in the article that they charge for books. It's a figure of speech, not a comment on what they do.

jl6 4y ago

Yeah, grey hat shenanigans easily become black hat as soon as money is involved.

KMnO4 4y ago

They’re not charging for the books; they’re charging for the bandwidth.

mgaunard 4y ago

Technically, they're not charging for the books, they're charging for the bandwidth.

krick 4y ago

I don't quite agree. I mean, they provide useful service, and it costs money to run it. It's ok that they earn (even if it's actually making a profit, not just covering the costs). That being said, 10 downloads/day feels a bit restrictive to me. I'd get if it was 100, or 50, heck, maybe even 20. I mean, I don't appreciate that it's not mirrorable in the first place, but maybe they cannot afford it, I don't know... But 10 feels less than somebody researching a new topic might need to access in a day, even if he won't read them all immediately. …That being said as well, it has some really nice UI. I wish somebody did it for Libgen.

lupire 4y ago
You read more than 10 books per day?
- krick 4y ago
  Read — no, I don't. Download to skim and see the contents — yes (even though I don't do it everyday, obviously). In fact, I rarely download less than 4 books at once, except for occasions when it's a new book of my favorite writer (in which case I can as well just buy it). Instead, there is some topic, some reason why I need these books, and I somehow can gather a dozen of recommendations, maybe more, then I need to actually get a look inside of them, to see what I'll be reading (if anything). It also happens that I kinda know the book, but not precisely enough, because some authors really like to milk the topic by publishing 5 books kinda the same as the first successful one, and if they are technical they can have 5 revisions each. I may not read them at all, or I may be reading them during the whole next year, but I'll need to get them all at once at first. And if we also count papers, which this site provides too — easily.
Aachen 4y ago
It's a good thing their hosting provider is okay with providing bandwidth per individual user account on the site of up to—how many books did you say again, 50? Without sarcasm, I don't think the bandwidth bill cares that you find it restrictive. That even more than a handful are free every day for every account is honestly a lot, since that means virtually nobody will need to contribute to the costs they're collectively incurring. And if you're unable to pay, you can still skim a few dozen books (making two or three accounts isn't that hard to do by hand) every day, and go back to any you've already downloaded previously too. And offer them to friends to offload the server.

swayvil 4y ago

>What kind of fairness...? Well they are providing a great public service and their system takes money to maintain. It's just a small fee.

II2II 4y ago

At this point is worth noting that there are reputable sources for free books, such as public libraries and Project Gutenberg. I realize that neither source will satisfy many of the people on HN, simply because there is a need for current technical books.

harry8 4y ago
What on earth does "reputable" mean here? Total compliance with the regulatory capture of publishing companies? Full support of the landgrab claims of the Disney corporation et al? You don't have to be an anarchist to look at the status quo and think some amount of civil disobedience is the correct, proper and right thing to do. Also believing that a claim, fully Disney supported, that such an amount of civil disobedience is somehow ethically evil is, in fact, somewhat disreputable. As disreputable as the insanely high journal subscription fees for taxpayer funded research, for example. The publishing companies chose this path willingly and with prejudice for their profit turning the relevant law against the people. Are they reputable given they did so? It's hardly an outlying position around here to think they really aren't anything of the sort. Refusing to accept that on mass, until appropriate reform is supported and enacted could be considered quite worthwhile. You may of course, disagree.
- pnutjam 4y ago
  IRC, ebook highway.
  - Tepix 4y ago
    Might as well link the guide: https://www.reddit.com/r/Piracy/comments/2oftbu/guide_the_idiot_proof_guide_to_downloading_ebooks/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Piracy/comments/2oftbu/guide_the_id...
- II2II 4y ago
  Not all authors and not all publishers are alike. It is easy to cherry pick a few very bad apples, like Disney (especially since much of their success can be attributed to retelling stories from the public domain) or those who are actively anti-library (from the perspective of property rights, at the level of a physical book or purchased ebook - not the right to make and distribute copies). On the other hand you also have authors who have reasonable views of copyright and even give away their books. You also have publishers who are willing to have their books lent by libraries or don't place artificial restrictions on consumers when it comes to ebooks. Of course, access to publicly funded research is another issue altogether (and one that should consider patents as well as copyrights). The question becomes, how many of those targets of "civil disobedience" have earned that privilege and how many are simply collateral damage? Also, ideally, civil disobedience should be aimed towards changing laws rather than people simply taking what they want.

sacrosanct 4y ago

Golden rule of piracy: don’t profit from stolen works or it’s not piracy, it’s profiteering.

sudosysgen 4y ago
Revenue != Profit. I really doubt they're doing anything beyond paying to keep the lights on.

jrm4 4y ago

I worked as a volunteer to fundraise for my local library. I can see no meaningful moral difference between this and that. I get that the law is different, I just think the law is off here.